Show 50: BEL Stakes Challenge Winner Blake Jessee

Belmont Stakes Challenge winner Blake Jessee, 36, joins PTF to talk about his big win, life as the racing manager for Looch Racing and his time as a professional bettor in his 20s as well as what we can learn from racing around the world. It’s a great conversation that you don’t want to miss.


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Hello. Hello and welcome to the end, the money players podcast. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in the Brooklyn bunker. Once again, really excited about today’s guest. This is somebody I’ve talked to a lot off the air. I think we did an article once for the DRF back in the day, but he really deserves a proper sit down.

And what better excuse than his big win in the Belmont stakes challenge than to bring in Blake, Jesse Blake, how are you today? Doing well, Pete, thanks for having me on start at the end and talk about this Belmont contest. What were the horses for you that puts you, uh, into contention and how did you take it home?

Um, well it’s, it was a tough contest, really starting out, but, um, Uh, really, I only had one score and that was what propelled me to the win. And that was in the Woody Stephens, uh, hog Creek hustle. And, uh, borracho very nice. Very nice. What, tell us about the tournament up to that point. I mean, were you just bleeding money?

Were you short-staffed at that point or were you just sort of, I was extremely short stack. Yeah. I think I had about 1100, about 1,150 going into that. Um, what he Stevens and I bet it all. So I was all in going into that race. Um, yeah, it, it, it was not a, uh, it was, it was not a good start. Let’s say the least.

Did you have one entry or two heading in just one entry? And, and what type of preparation do you do in advance of a contest like that? I mean, did you just sort of, did you have a big swing you took earlier that didn’t go well, or were you more betting, minimums up to that point and just trying to be alive to, to bigger opinions later, what type of planning do you do as a player to prepare for these big live bank roll events?

You know, I mean, I, I guess I just really, uh, you know, try to look at the card in advance and get a feel for it and try to find some spots that, um, you know, I feel like I can leverage, uh, the majority of my bank roll on to try and make a score. Which spots had you targeted ahead of there? Well, I mean, obviously the world of trouble race looked like it could be very chalky, but, um, it also looked like it, you know, maybe something that you could, you know, cold deck and, um, you know, put yourself in a good spot going into Saturday.

Unfortunately, uh, I did hit the race, but I didn’t hit it the way that I wanted to. So, uh, I bled a little money there. Um, let’s see here, uh, really, I mean, I bet, uh, all my minimums on Friday and I was, you know, contemplating going all in on Friday and I just wasn’t hitting anything. It didn’t have any, uh, you know, luck early on.

So, um, you know, playing in a lot of these contests, I’ve learned that you want to give yourself a chance, at least, you know, if you’re not doing good on day one, uh, you know, just give yourself a chance to come back on day two and, you know, make, try to make something happen. Let’s fast forward today too.

And talk about hog Creek hustle. I know a lot of podcasts listeners have had this horse on the radar since, uh, I think it, Paul and Duke Matisse talked about him ahead of the last race and led us to a nice exact Exacta. So folks are definitely familiar with them on the show. What did you like about the horse and how did you go about putting your all in bet together?

Well, it’s pretty simple, really, uh, you know, hog Creek hustles since being turned back to, uh, um, sprint races. One turn races is, you know, shown, uh, a much better edge to them. And, um, uh, Woody Stevens this year, I thought was going to be a race that, you know, I had had every opportunity for a paycheck collapsed and, uh, I, and I just, it felt like the three, six and the eight were going to be the horses that had the best opportunity to pick up the pieces and they were going to have value.

And, um, you know, it just P a lot of these, uh, you know, big races, you know, they’re chalky, but every once in a while you catch a Woody Stevens that, uh, you know, has a, um, a full field of, uh, horses. And, you know, there, you know, there’s a lot of parody. Uh, that’s what it takes really to, to catch a good score.

You know, it’s, it’s going to take a full field of horses that you can make a case for just about each of them in this day and age. We’ve talked about this before in the show, when you got a lot of very accurate speed figures out there, speed figures really helped make the market like nothing else. And when you can find a situation, that means that it’s not necessarily the fastest horse, that’s going to have the advantage, but the one who had sets up for situations like pace extremes, right loan, front runners, have that opportunity.

Absolutely pace collapses are the other one. I feel like so many of the long shots come from from those two buckets. When you’re doing your pace analysis, Blake, what are you, what are you looking at? How is it as simple as, Oh, there’s a lot of horses who want to go to the front end here. Are you looking at pace figures?

Does the field size have to do with it? How do you make those determinations? Well, yeah, I, I definitely have to say I’m a trip handicapper. I’m, I’m looking at the past performances and trying to, you know, put together how the race is going to shape up and how it’s going to unfold. So I’m immediately looking for pace.

Who’s going to be, uh, you know, setting the fractions. Who’s going to be stalking the fractions and, you know, who’s going to be, you know, far out of it and, um, you know, that sort of thing. So I just try to visualize, um, where each horse is going to be setting at the first quarter, Mark, and then just kind of break the race down from there.

And, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll go ahead and kind of throw in, you know, track bias into my, uh, um, analysis and, you know, just try to formulate something that can, uh, You know, that can happen. And you know, that has value. Did that give you any pause over the weekend? It did seem that the inside was certainly good hog Creek hustle overcame it.

W did, were you worried about the collapse happening because of the way the track was playing? Do you D uh, P you know, I honestly, I was concerned, but you know, when you’re desperate and you’re, uh, you know, you’re down to your last bullet, so to speak you, um, you, you can’t really second guess yourself, you just, you gotta go with what you’re handicapped and.

Um, you know, that’s, luckily that’s the way it worked out this time, but yeah, it was a golden rail. Um, I’m in agreement with everybody just about that. I’ve spoke to, um, you know, it’s, it is odd that the one race I hit, you know, it seems like the, uh, The bias was able to be overcome, but, uh, yeah, that’s, that’s a good point.

Uh, I was a little bit nervous about that, but I put it down to that same idea, the same way that pace scenarios can overcome important signal like speed figures. I think they can also overcome important signal like bias and it probably helped. I mean, that crowd was such a wise guy. I’ll never get over the come dancing midnight Bisou bedding when the crowd is so in tuned to the bias that the prices of those two are flipped from what I think they would have been.

I can’t agree more. I cannot agree more. I mean, that, that is a very well put that’s. Um, you know, I, I would have bet my life, uh, the day before that BC would have went favored. Yeah, but I think that, you know, maybe that helped you in terms of the price you got on your, on your bets. Tell us a little more specifically, like exactly how you played that wage or, I mean, were you boxing King?

Were you looking at novice? Very simple. I keyed the three and eight and third. I played a $20 try. Um, I used all the horses. I felt like that had a chance to win. And first and second. And, um, keyed to three and eight and a third and, um, you know, had to sweat out, uh, you know, an inquiry. Oh, let’s talk about that easily.

I’ll go ahead and admit, I thought I was coming down and I, I, I easily could have come down. I mean, I, I’m not going to be one of those guys. That’s going to stand up here and say that the stewards made a terrific call and this and that. You know, I I’ve played this game since I was in diapers. Just about, and trust me, I can, I can tell you that, uh, uh, you, you just got to thank your lucky stars when you get one like that.

It was a true 50 50 for me, for me, it was the right call in that I believe when he, he went around the other horse so easily, it just watching races as often as you do without that trouble. I just don’t see a horse who was beaten to that degree before it happened, rerelease to beat him. Now, granted under super confusing USA category, two rules, you can make a case.

He still would have run better than he did potentially warranting the DQ. But for me, I thought it was the right call because of that. It did make me think about how much clearer of a call it would be in category one. And I’d certainly be in favor of some punishment for the jock, for shutting the other horse off like that objectively take yourself out of the equation.

How do you see it? Well, yeah, taking myself out of the equation. Um, I feel, I mean, it, I can tell you that, um, you know, knowing some of the variables afterwards, uh, Johnny V you know, he told the stewards that, uh, his Mount was, you know, basically out of run at that point. So you really got to, you know, Giving him some applause to him, because most guys in that situation probably aren’t going to, um, you know, be able to have the cool headedness to, you know, say that, you know, their Mount was tiring and yeah.

Although they did get, you know, kind of salt off a little bit, they, uh, you know, had the class to, you know, tell the truth. Yeah. That’s yeah. I think that’s kind of rare in this day and age. So I think that, um, you know, is very important to this story is that, you know, the writer that was affected is. Out front and telling everybody that it didn’t matter.

So that’s interesting. That’s I hadn’t heard that actually until you just, uh, reported it to me there. That’s really interesting. Let’s return to the contest though. Blake. So there, at that point you had what’s something on the order of 60,000, your nearest competitor. I think it was committed even Ben, Mr.

Kinchin at that point in the height, in the high twenties, what is your, how are you game theory being from there and how did it play out? Sure. Um, you know, I think I was, I had about a $35,000 a lead, which, you know, that’s, it’s pretty comfortable. I mean, nothing’s, you know, certain by any means, but it was a comfortable lead.

So I had a couple of mandatories. I still had to play after that. And, uh, I got those in and. Uh, that was, I got my last mandatory and prior to the Belmont, so going into the Belmont, I had about a, I believe a $32,000 lead. You know, I honestly, I, you know, made a small bet just what I liked in the race, you know, just kind of, if this comes in, I’ll be mad if I don’t have it type thing.

And, um, you know, I just hope that, you know, nobody down. Cause I felt like at that point, the guys that were really gonna be a threat to me were the guys that had a thousand bucks or 1500 bucks that were just going to take a stab at a straight number, you know, some type of cold number in the last race.

And, um, you know, luckily that didn’t happen, but that was, that was kinda my thought process. It was such a big lead that, uh, I felt comfortable that someone was really going to have to Caltech deck something or, you know, play some crazy. So that’s, you know, something out of their comfort zone to try and catch me.

You definitely make a good point about having them come to get you as opposed to a situation where you really needed to protect the lead. The lead was big enough. Also did the field size enter into it. We’re not talking about some 200 runner live band contest here under that circumstance. Would you have felt more pressure to bet or you in general feel like you want to make them come to you?

Yeah. You know, that’s a good point and something like the BCBC where there’s, you know, several hundred entries I probably would have, you know, probably played my opinion a little bit more strong, you know, so to speak just because you do have, you know, more volume of players are, you know, better chance someone can, uh, you know, stab it and.

You know, run you down, but, uh, that definitely did come into play. Uh, there was probably, you know, I think at the time it was a 60 players total, but there was only about 55 with money left, I believe, going into the last race. So, and of those 55, I would say half of them were, you know, a major threat to, I mean, somewhat of a threat to me.

So, um, yeah, that did come into play, you know, I, I felt, you know, there’s not that many people behind me really. So it would be kind of like a mathematical anomaly if they’d caught me in a way. I think that sounds about right. What did you end up walking with in terms of your total hall? Uh, total hall would have been, um, 59, 58,000 cash, and then 60,000 prize.

And, um, a seat to next year’s Belmont and a BCBC entry. That’s a pretty good haul, right there. Is that that’s is that your best result in a single contest? Yeah, that is I, I had, I did finish seventh or eighth this year and the BC and the BCBC, so that was a good score as well. But, um, yeah, this is by far the best, uh, result for me.

You said before that you’ve been playing the horses since you were in diapers, how much of an exaggeration is that? Um, yeah, I was it’s pre-adolescence but I wouldn’t, I wasn’t in diapers now. Preadolescence is pretty good though. Tell us how you got started. Um, you know, my father, you know, he just, uh, one day he said that we’re going to go somewhere.

So he, uh, took me to the track and he played a $2 exact, uh, for me, uh, straight, exact, uh, every race when I was a kid, I’d go. And that’s kinda how it started and. You know, it just, I was always into sports growing up, so it’s, uh, kind of just went hand in hand for me, you know, I just, uh, I got the bug in it.

It’s it’s stuck ever since. Which track were you going to back in the day river downs? I was the first track I ever attended. Um, it’s since been, um, renovated and turned into Belterra park, but, um, that was the first track I, uh, I visited and then shortly after that, uh, Indiana got racetracks and, uh, Hoosier park was the track that I would freak out.

Where did you grow up between those two? Yeah, just outside of Indianapolis, um, a town called Noblesville. Now a lot of these stories that horse players have their common elements to what I call the origin story. You’ve already hit on one of them, the older relative who sort of mentors, you almost all of these stories also have an early big score.

Do you have one of those? You know, I have a memory of when I was a kid, we were going skiing, um, up North to Michigan. So we were all packed in the car, driving up, and this was on new year’s Eve. And my dad said, well, we’re going to stop at the horse track on the way. So we stopped and it was, uh, the, um, it was a two year old Southern California race as a stakes race for Cal breads on, uh, new year’s Eve.

And, uh, Convinced my dad to give me $20. I bet $5 across the board on a 30 to one shot. You know, it was, it was just the, it was cool being, you know, so young and, you know, having your. You know, your dad and your uncle asked you for money. You know, it was, it was a good feeling, you know? So, uh, that, that, that, that’s a memory that I’ll never forget.

And how old are you? How old are you at this time? And your memory is such, I can’t believe you’ll if you’ll remember this, but do you remember at the age you were, why you like this horse? Uh, yeah. I was 12 years old and I liked the horse because, uh, Corey black was riding and I, you know, I was obsessed with closers.

I loved watching horses close and this horse was a huge closer. And I said, you know what? I think this horse can run them all down that he said, you’re out of your mind. He’s 30 to one. You’re just wasting your money. And, uh,

Another thing I love to ask of people who have such a clear handicapping mentor, as you did in your dad, the sort of double question of what’s a lesson that you really remember learning from that person. And what’s a lesson you had to learn on your own. Oh man, I know the best lesson I ever learned was you take friends to the track.

You don’t make friends at the track. Explain what you mean by that. That sounds interesting. The track you’ll walk in and you know, nothing against it, because this is, this is the industry I live and work in, but you know, you’re always gonna find, you know, this guy over here, that’s got some sort of history, this guy over here, that’s got some sort of colorful past and it’s, you know, not necessarily the place you want to find a mentor for your son or your daughter, you know?

So, um, I just remember my dad always saying he was like, this is a place you really don’t want to, you know, meet friends. You just want to take friends here. I was like, all right, Dan, thanks like handicapping contests have changed that dynamic. Um, yeah, it has, you know, the, the whole contest scene is something that, uh, is a breath of fresh air for me, is that as far as that goes, because it’s somewhat of a brotherhood in a way everybody’s there to help each other.

And, uh, you know, opinions are thrown off of each other and, uh, you know, wisecracks are made on each other. Um, you know, it’s, it’s a great comradery back to the mentor question. In terms of the lesson you had to learn on your own, what would you say that one was money management. I mean, that’s, you know, you can have that preach to you all you want, but until you get in the trenches and, um, Really have to, you know, tussle with it.

You’ll um, you know, you really have to have a respect for that, because as much as I love this game, you, you have to find a way to be able to stay in it every day or else, you know, you’re not giving yourself a chance. A lot of people listening probably don’t know this is very much the voice of experience, because there was a time between your youthful exploits you were describing before and your professional career, which we’ll get to later in racing where you supported yourself by playing the horses.

How did that idea come up? How did it develop? What was that experience like? And again, give us a sense of where you were on the age curve here. Yeah. I was in my early twenties, mid twenties. And you know, it’s, I tell this to people all the time. There was nothing great about it. It was a. It was survival.

You know, it, it wasn’t, uh, anything lavish to it. Um, you know, it’s, it’s a very tough thing to achieve because, um, you know, it’s simple, some days you, you go to work and you come home with less money than what you started with it, it’s not fun. And, uh, it, it makes it even harder when you got, you know, uh, deadlines to meet and bills to pay.

It’s, it’s not an easy thing to achieve. So anybody out there doing it, um, I, I have the greatest amount of respect for them because it’s, it takes a special type of person to pull it off. And, um, I feel like with each day that goes by, you know, the betting public becomes smarter and smarter and smarter.

And, um, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not any easier to make money. How did you, how long did you play for your source of income and were you tempted? I mean, just the obvious question. Were you tempted to drive a cab or, or stand behind a bar or a D B ups guy, or do anything else? Like why, why racing? Well, racing was something that I, you know, I just had a passion and a love for it.

Um, you know, some, some things just get your attention and others don’t, and this is, uh, something that just, uh, you know, when I wake up each day, this is, you know, every day I wake up, this is what I want to do. And, uh, there’s nothing else that gave me that urge in life. Really. What was your, uh, complete, highest completed level of education before you dove into the racing stuff?

Uh, I, you know, didn’t graduate from college. I was, uh, two years in and that’s. Kind of where I was, you know, I had to ask myself that question of, you know, what am I doing? You know? Cause I just felt like I was wasting money and time, um, you know, not knowing exactly what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

So, um, that’s kind of when I decided, uh, I’m gonna go full force it, this horse thing and, you know, see what I can do. How long did that period last? Oh man. Um, all the way until my current job. Wow. Um, so I mean, I, that’s how I, you know, survived 10 years. Are we talking at that point? Yeah. From age, I’d say age 22 to uh, 32.

And what was your roadmap? I mean, were there there’s no, uh, Mike Maloney, hadn’t written his book. There wasn’t really a roadmap on becoming a pro player. How did you, how did you educate yourself and come up with your business plan as it were. Yeah, well, it’s, it’s simple. My business plan was to, you know, try not leak and try to not leak money and, you know, do everything I could to bring money.

So, um, you know, I would play very close to the vest. Um, you know, it’s, you can’t play every race that’s for certain, but, uh, you know, I would just pick and choose my spots. And, uh, you know, one thing I can tell you is my volume is much higher today than it was back then. Okay. Uh, yeah. And I credit that really to, you know, playing on short money, you know, it’s, it’s when you’re playing on a shorter bank for all, you, you know, you really have to be right.

You know, more often. So, um, you don’t spread it around as much. I, I guess. Um, yeah, so. My goal each day was to really just try to try to make a few hundred dollars. And if I could make more than that without having to, um, you know, put too much risk out there, then that was great. But, uh, you know, every day that I could play, get some churn, make some money.

That was great. Any particular stories, either memorable wins or losses that, that come to your mind when you think about that, uh, that decade spent when you were grinding, um, Pete there’s so many months where the landlord was, you know, just as happy as me, you know, when I would make it hit. So it’s, it’s hard to, you know, there’s, there’s so many, honestly,

So you had that experience. That’s so many, I mean, grinders right. Is the right word. Cause poker or wherever it’s a grind every day. You’re just, you feel like you’re fighting for your life just to keep your head above water and, you know, but somehow you wake up everyday wanting to do it. I mean, it’s, it’s amazing, you know, it really is.

But, um, I, and I have to thank my, you know, my family and my friends, cause they were all very supportive and um, I think that a lot of people would have questioned me and you know, said, Hey, maybe you should be doing something else with your time. Um, but you know, my family is very supportive and if they weren’t, I don’t know if I’d be where I’m at today.

So, um, I, I did have a good support network. Let’s talk about the transition into your current role. Was there one thing that happened that made you fed up with the grinders life? Or did you just sort of get to the end of your tether from the, all the stress that must’ve come with? What you’ve been describing?

That’s that’s exactly it it’s, it was stress and, um, you know, I’m, I’m becoming an older guy at this point and, um, you know, my then girlfriend was, you know, encouraging me, Hey, you know, we need to settle down and, you know, start a family and that sort of thing. So that was really the, um, I would have to put that on my wife, you know, she was very adamant, like, you know, Hey, um, Probably should get a job, like one that people, you know, understand.

Oh, that’s amazing. All right. So now go back there. How did you, how did you start? I mean, you know, what’s your resume looking like at this point and how it’s so funny you say that because my resume, um, you know, when I reached out to Ron was, you know, I can give you some, you know, I have a few, uh, um, you know, people that I can give you their number, they can verify me and all that I said, but really the best thing I can give you is my bedding history.

I mean, that’s, that’s gonna tell you what type of person I am. And, um, you know, he kind of laughed and, you know, but he, you know, Ron and I, you know, I, I had have to say, I’m the luckiest guy in the world to have, you know, gotten to meet him and work for him because. We, we really do meld well, he’s, uh, he’s a very eccentric guy and, um, I feel like that, you know, we’re good.

We’re a good team, Ron, of course, for those who don’t know is Ron Paulucci of Looch racing and Blake, your official title, I would imagine, would be racing manager for Lou tracing. How did you find him? How did you know about him? I don’t think I knew who he was back at the time when we’re talking about, well, you know, when you’re in the trenches every day and wagering, every track across the country, it’s, you know, he’s, he’s not a guy that’s hard to find, um, in person because of those lime green silks and cause he’s always in the form, he’s running so many horses, but, um, yeah.

I, you know, I just, uh, I heard this guy on the radio a few times and he’d, he’d mentioned that, you know, I’m doing this all on my own, I’ve got a hundred horses and nobody’s helping me in this. And I thought, well, man, this guy probably needs some help. Yeah. So I reached out to him and, um, you know, oddly the phone rang the next morning and it was him.

And, you know, he said, can you get on a plane to Dallas? And I said, yeah, no problem. So I got on a plane to Dallas, went and met him. And the following Monday I was working for him and it’s been that way for, you know, going on five years now. So, um, You know, it’s you just never know what it’s going to be each day with Ron Piluchi that’s the great thing about him.

No, two days alike. I was going to say just, I mean, you know, as an outsider, I’ve had the pleasure of meeting him at the, at the green room at keenly land that I have a little bit of a sense about who he is, but if I only knew him from some of the spots where the horses end up and maybe some of the quotes you read in the, in the racing press, you might think he was kind of a mercurial individual.

However, I can tell from your long standing relationship that I doubt he’s that way. As, as a boss, how do you reconcile sort of the public persona with the man that, you know, Yeah. Um, it’s, you know, Ron is Ron to me, but I understand too, a lot of other people he’s he’s out of his mind. No. So, um, I, wasn’t going to say that, but yeah, no, I love the guy and that’s why I can say that, you know, and the reality we have it is is that Ron has got one of the biggest hearts that you’re ever going to find.

He’s taught me so much about this game and he’s one of the sharpest horse people you’ll ever meet. I mean, he is very, you know, aggressive with, uh, you know, the way he likes to play sources and big races. Um, but that aside, um, you can’t win as many races as he’s one you can’t, um, you know, win as many owner titles as he’s one and doing it on the budget that he has.

Um, I don’t think there’s anybody. And our game, that’s doing what he’s doing. So, um, you know, he catches a lot of Slack for, you know, being aggressive, but all that said, uh, he’s got a heart of gold, he’s a standup guy and, you know, he’s, uh, he’s, he’s just, you know, a wonderful guy to be around. And like I said, he’s, uh, he’s my boss.

So he’s, he’s, uh, he’s, uh, he’s number one in my eyes, but you gotta just, uh, take the good with the bad and, you know, just accept that, uh, you know, Ron’s a, uh, a guy that likes to, uh, play the game at a high level, you know, fair enough. What goes into being a racing manager? I think a lot of our listeners don’t know too much about the game on that level.

What’s the day to day of that part of your job. And then how does betting factor into it in 2019? Sure. Um, you know, every day, you know, having living animals there’s stuff that is, you know, can go wrong and does go wrong. So, um, a lot of my job is dealing with, uh, you know, putting out small fires, maybe a, this horse has to go to the, uh, the equine hospital today, or, uh, this horse needs to be shipped from here to there.

Um, you know, this horse needs and needs to be nominated or, uh, you know, there’s just several different, uh, day-to-day, uh, things that will come up, uh, that, you know, just have to be taken care of, whether it be licensing for, uh, you know, uh, attract that’s, uh, we’re getting ready to send horses to, or, um, you know, whether it’s a sick horse or bills that need to be paid.

There’s so many different facets of it that have to be taken care of and handled, and, you know, it’s. You got a hundred race horses, it’s impossible for one guy to do it. So that’s where I come into play and I try to take as much, um, much of that off of his table. And so that he can sit back and watch his horses run and, you know, enjoy the game.

How much of the actual picking of the spots is you or does he keep that pretty much as his own ballywick yeah, Ron, Ron is going to pick all his spots. You know, he will occasionally ask me my opinion on some things, but, you know, he, he’s gonna, you know, he pays these bills and that’s what he loves to do is, you know, pick these spots and, um, you know, I, I, I totally understand it and, um, you know, it’s good for us and, um, That’s how that works.

I want to ask about that. I want to loop back to that question about bedding and how much time are you afforded to continue to bet? Cause you mentioned you’re betting more now than when you were doing it for a living. I wasn’t sure if you were just referring to contests or day to day talk about the role that betting plays in your life.

Yeah, I would say betting is, you know, a, uh, it used to be an everyday thing now it’s, you know, probably four days a week, you know, Wednesday, you know, through, uh, maybe Tuesday through Sunday, I would maybe take one or two days off a week. And uh, that’s about the time I give it now. And you know, I’ll, I’ll play the whole card, any card I, uh, go to play, I’m not just going to look at one race.

I like to, you know, take the whole card and try to make something happen with it. And, um, you know, I would say that. My volume is higher. I don’t know if I’m putting in more time, but I’m putting in more money. I know that you’re handling more in aggregate now than when you were then when you were back then.

Exactly. How do contests fit into the current, uh, spectrum of your play? Sure. Yeah. You know, the contest is something that, uh, I’ll do that for the rest of my life, just because it’s, I love competition and I love the comradery. So, um, like for example, right now I’ve got, um, mapped out the, uh, the Del Mar contest, Chris bars contest out there and, uh, the end of July, I’ll go out there.

And, um, I’ll go to the Saratoga contest in August and I’ll even go to the Arlington contest and, uh, um, around 4th of July, um, I believe Chris, Chris PEPs, Nick runs that one. Indeed. Indeed. They have a, they have a chance to win a bunch of, I think it’s NHC there and it seems like a pretty good opportunity.

Oh yeah, no big. I mean it’s anytime there’s no rake, that’s a, that’s a great plus Evie situation. Where did you first get into contest? What was the impetus? Um, you know, it’s funny the first contest I ever played, I got into it because of, um, the, uh, this year’s, uh, BCBC winter, actually, Chuck grubs. He’s the one that introduced me to contest.

And the first one I played was I believe the Stephen Foster Churchill contest two or three years ago. It was the year, uh, JK won the NHC tour. Yeah. So that would have been the year that I first played. I played my first contest. So yeah, I’ve been at it now for four years or so. Chuck just encouraged you and said, Hey, this is something you might want to check out.

How did you, how did that’s exactly it? Yeah. We were driving home from the Derby that year. And um, he said, uh, you plant contests. I said, no. And he said, well, you ought to play a, there’s a great one coming up next week. I was like, okay, that’s excellent. Now I’m going to just take a guess that Chuck and Ron were maybe friends through harness racing.

Yes, that is correct. Yep. They had some, uh, some ties back to the, uh,

Chuck is an amazing player. We got to get him on here to tell his whole story. You talk about the immense respect you have for professional players. I could just see you gravitating towards him and his life experience from, from the beginning. Was he an important person for you and your horseplaying life?

Oh yeah. Chuck and I speak every day and, um, I’ve got a great amount of respect for him. He’s. He is exactly what I was talking about. He’s a guy that is in front of the monitors, 24 seven, and watching replays bedding, doing everything he can to find an edge. And that’s, uh, that’s what it takes. And he’s the perfect example of it.

I want to ask you about your handicapping process and how it’s evolved. You talked about being a trip handicapper, but I’m interested in what data you use and just some sense of what your process is. It sounds like you’re comfortable looking at a whole lot of races around the country still. Yeah. Um, you know, it’s, it’s a good point.

Now, one thing I can tell you is that it’s, whoever makes the buyers, for example, it’s not the same person making the buyers for every track, correct? It’s the same formula, but it’s not the same person. So I’ve learned that whether it be the third graphs or the rag cousins or the buyers. That each track, you know, for example, an 80 buyer is not going to translate the same for Belmont as it will thistle downs.

It just doesn’t now why? I don’t know, but that’s just the reality of it. So I feel like I have an edge in being able to decipher, you know, you know, is what is, what, when these horses are coming from other tracks and other venues. So, um, that’s one thing that, um, you know, goes into my handicapping, so to speak is that I, you know, I may not treat this 80 buyer the same way I treat this 80 buyer.

And, uh, same thing goes for, uh, the rag cousins. I’ll use the buyers in the magazines and I use the rag lessons to kind of help decipher, um, A lot of times in a race I’ll have, you know, maybe it’s a 12 horse field and I got three horses. I like, and for me, they all three look alike. You know, I can’t separate them, the rag to do a good job for me of separating those three horses so that I can get a, you know, a true feel of which one I should be pressing and which one I shouldn’t be pressing.

So, and when, I mean pressing playing multiple times or, um, you know, trying to hit it out of the ballpark, so to speak, um, So that’s a kind of the tools I use to try to come to a solid conclusion with your trip work. Are you doing that immediate aftermath of races and recording it in some sort of database form like formulator, or are you looking at a card for the first time finding maybe a common race with four horses and then going back and watching that race and tripping it from that point of view, how do you incorporate that?

Sure. Um, when a, when I see something happen in a race, I have a, you know, I use a Mac book and I just go to my notes section and. I just put date, race, name, a horse, and just start typing. And I just got a database full of notes and every day, you know, I’ll just go through my thing and I’ll look and I’ll say, Oh, well here, I’ve got a worse, you know, that was, uh, locked up, you know, for the entire race and, you know, had no room to run and, you know, dah, dah, dah, um, you know, and I’ll Institute that into my play.

If it’s worthy, you know, you gotta be careful. A lot of this information that we’re tracking is, is useless, you know, honestly, but, um, yeah. You gotta be very careful of, uh, you know, how, how high a value you’re going to put on these, uh, this trouble, you know, that you’re highlighting because it can, uh, it can lead to a lot of, uh, money loss.

If you’re not caring. I know I’m going to guess what you mean at that. Cause I think some listeners will be like, wait, he’s putting in all this work. And he’s saying it’s often useless, but I think where, where you’re going with that is just because a horse had a trip doesn’t mean he fits in today’s spot or is going to have the right space scenario.

You need to do handicapping beyond just, okay. It’s not, it’s not an auto bet just because they’re coming back. Right, right. Correct. And I mean, how many notes do you think you’re making just in an average day? I mean, are you picking out one or two? No. Yeah. It may be just, it may be zero and it may be one or two, you know, it’s gotta be something that it at least peaks my mind, like tells me like, Hey, there’s.

You know, if these, if this situation hadn’t occurred, like this is, this is a total different outcome. It’s not even close. Like that’s what I’m looking for. I’m looking for something that just, you know, makes no sense. Like this horse had no business routing today. Like, you know, he’s, he never wanted to go this long and you know, he’s going to have a terrible running line coming back in his next start.

And if he comes back sprinting in the right spot, You know, I’m going to go to town, you know, it’s, it’s kinda how I look at it. I think that’s smart, trying to understand what connections are doing, whether it’s a strategy or just poor placing, and then being able to capitalize when the horse gets back in the right spot.

Especially when you’re looking at a lot of races. Sometimes I think you can get numb to just looking at PPS and say, Oh, that’s a bad race. This horse is out of form. Whereas if you’re trying to capture it in real time, and you’re almost like being able to tap into your brain the day you looked at that race and no, wait a second.

Not so fast. There’s maybe something going on here does that exactly. That’s it? You know, if I can, if I’m my hope is to put those notes down so that. When this situation comes back, this horse comes back in everything from that day everything’s from occurred from that last instance is going to be fresh on my mind so that I can, um, you know, Institute that in and to my handicap.

I’m embarrassed to say that there’s times where a note will come up on a horse and I’ll read this detailed note and it’s good, but I have no memory of making it or no memory, no primary memory of the original race. And then I can tell from talking to you that you’ve got a great memory, our mutual friend, Nick Tamra, you talked to a guy like that.

I envy you guys. I mean, not only are you both younger than me, but you’re, you’re just much sharper. Well, uh, thank you. But I will say that Nick, um, I consider him to be the sharpest. Um, but yeah, uh, man, I can’t believe you just kind of compared me to Nick, but all right. Um, you remembering details of a race, you bet when you were 12, I can’t do that.

Listen the, the times we win, we never forget. Pete. I’m see. This is difference in personality. I can tell you all about my bad beats. I think more, there are the, the, the toppest of the top level, top 1% wins. I remember pretty well, but I can remember to forget those. I, can you give me an average, bad beat from six years ago?

I can quote you chapter and verse. I don’t know. It’s something, there’s something wrong with me. There’s something wrong with me clearly, but in terms of the trip notes and how you manage them, do you have a service that emails you, you know, I think Equibase has one. DRF has one that tells you what the courses are.

Backing manual is my own. I use my own notes. Like I said, I have my own notebook. Um, and I just type them in. And like I said, each day I do use the virtual stable. Now I just don’t. I choose to not write any notes there. Um, but I do use the virtual stable with Equibase to notify me when a horse is in, um, So, uh, I do do that, but I, you know, I like to just, I’m kind of old school in that regard.

I like to have my own notes and my own notebook. I’ve got a few other areas I want to touch on that could, could spiral into lengthy conversation. So I’ll, I’ll cut right to those. You mentioned about getting married and I didn’t realize that, uh, that your wife knew you back in those straight up grinding days.

I think a lot of listeners can probably use some advice. And I mentioned Mike Maloney before, and he wrote about this extensively embedding with an edge, but what’s the secret for a horseplayer to keep a strong honesty. I mean, it’s, uh, I mean, uh, from day one, I made sure to explain how much, you know, How, how much I was into horse racing and how much passion I had for it.

So I would say that, you know, you convey that, you know, anybody that’s, you know, a true life partner for you is going to be, you know, helpful in helping you try to, you know, achieve what you want to do. So, um, you know, being open about your ambitions is the best thing I can say is, uh, you know, definitely helped me.

Um, your partner has to accept you for who you are. I mean, it’s as simple as that. Yeah. Oh, that’s, that’s great. And, uh, and married life treating you guys well, so far. Absolutely. You know, my, uh, my wife actually has a few horses and, uh, you know, she’s had, I think said six starts this year and three wins.

She’s doing well. You’ve got our percentage at night, so that’s that’s. Yeah, that’s great. So she’s, I’ve met her at the track a couple of times. She’s obviously a little bit more than merely racing tolerant. I described Susan as racing tolerant, you know, she was out there going to Belmont. We had a good day.

She likes it, but she’s not going to go. She’s not really going out of her way. If I’m being honest with myself, big, big days, big days only kind of. And a couple of, you know, a couple of times at Saratoga sounds like, uh, sounds like your wife is a little bit more into it than that. Yeah, Raquel is, uh, she’s great.

She’s um, she she’s very much into it and she enjoys the game. I also wanted to ask you about your involvement overseas. I remember the first conversation you and I ever had. You saw, I think may it was maybe back in 15 when I was going over to spend four months over there and you had volunteered to talk to me about just the experience of, of bedding overseas.

How do you have this background? Do you still follow it? And then of course, we’ll drill down a little bit into, into ask it maybe depending on how much you still follow. Sure. Um, I actually, uh, spent about, uh, about a year and England and the Redding tilehurst area, um, and, uh, visited several tracks wise there, uh, visited the bedding shops quite often.

And, um, you know, I would say that that really was a. Having that experience, Pete was extremely important for me and my endeavors. And the reason I’ll say that is you’ll know this being there now is it’s, it’s a gambling nation, you know, every corner you’ve got a coral or a Ladbrokes or, uh, you know, there’s something, you know, that is to do with, you know, bedding, you know, there’s a betting shop on every corner just about.

So being in an environment like that, it, it made me feel like, Oh, this isn’t something that’s. So, you know, I’m not wrong for wanting to have ambitions to want to do something in this industry. Um, so I, I felt like that that was very good for me and, uh, being kind of submerged into, uh, that, uh, You know, all that weight and gambling really.

I mean, it’s, it’s kind of a taboo, it was a taboo topic. Um, you know, growing up, you know, in Indiana, it wasn’t something that was really promoted or talked about other than the state lottery. Right. How old were you when you were in England and were you mostly bedding? They’re racist or our races? Yeah. Uh, good question.

I was, um, I was in my early twenties just after college, so it was like 22, 23. And, um, I would listen, I, I remember frequenting just about every racetrack that I could drive to. I mean, I went to bath, I went to Windsor, I went to Kempton. I went to, um, uh, Epsom. I went to, uh, ask it, I went to, uh, I mean, I went to several Greyhound tracks.

I mean, I tried it all, you know, I, uh, I wanted to, I mean, I even did the dog hurdles. I mean, that’s talk about something that’s wow. Watching dogs go over hurdles or something that’s obscure. Yeah. It’s very clear. So, yeah. Uh, I, I, I really appreciated that time period of my life. Just being able to experience all the different facets of, uh, you know, racing.

Yeah. Is it more for fun or were you essentially the gambling? I was, I was gambling for a living, trying to, trying to make money. Um, and you know, it’s, that was the first time I ever had the opportunity to wager on American racing outside of. Um, you know, parimutuel pools who would’ve thought that would have been an amazing, amazing edge for you as it’s been for me over the years.

I mean, I, I don’t think I could make money if you made me be a professional better tomorrow. The first thing I would do would be to move there. I don’t know that I could knock heads with these guys in these pools. I think I could win over there. Um, I I’m curious if you had a similar expense, absolutely.

100%. You know, I would find that it was, it was almost a, I want to say that I found it kind of easy in a way, but I also, um, you know, it was, it was kind of a, um, I want to, it’s searching for a word here. It was, it was kind of, um, Oh man, I’m drawing a blank here, but it’s kind of like being in a different, you know, you know, like looking at a different language in a way, in my opinion, because.

Everything, you know, the TriCaster, the, um, you know, the forecast or the, you know, everything like that in the pounds. Um, you know, it was, you didn’t really have the pick for you had the accumulator you had, uh, you know, there was, so it was a time of my life when I was a lot younger and I’m trying to figure out like, you know, where is my edge here?

You know, what do I play? You know, I’m able to bet against the house. And, you know, I don’t even know what I should, where I should be attacking first year, you know? So it was a lot of, um, trial and error there and a lot of trying to, uh, you know, find my way. Um, but what it ended up doing was, you know, giving me a lot of, uh, um, knowledge for down the road, you know, and a lot of aha moments came later down the road.

I want to talk about those aha moments. And I’m also curious what precipitated the move back to our shores. During this time period, I was dating a British girl. So this was all, you know, basically precipitated off of, you know, that relationship. So, um, you know, we’re still friends that girl and I are still friends today, but for fortunately I’m, I’m married to my wife today and don’t have to think about that life anymore.

But, um, sounds like when that relationship ran its course, it was just time to come back home. Exactly. That’s it? Yep. That’s exactly it. Yeah. Um, and you talked about the lessons you learned. I mean, for me, when you’re betting fixed odds, especially when you’re betting fixed odds early on, I just think you learn a better intuitive sense of value than in parimutuel where.

You know, you, you don’t, you’ll never meet an American player who can bet on five to two shots. That should be eight to five because you can’t learn that skill here because you don’t know what price you’re getting, but I feel like, I feel like I’ve learned that difference over there. And if you give me fixed odds, I can live on that margin or, you know, at least do okay.

On that margin. And it’s just, to me, it’s a tremendous advantage. And I think it trains your brain to understand value in a way that we’re not afforded to over here. Do you think that’s right or an exaggerate? No, you’re very much right. Um, it’s, you know, when I, you know, going back to when I was over there, the very first way of me doing things, you know, just from common sense was.

You know, doing the handicap thing. And then literally, you know, when I was at be at the track, I’d go from, you know, they look like little hot dog stands, these little bookmakers, you know, and I would just go from, you know, bookmaker to bookmaker, looking at their odds board and shopping my odds. And, you know, if my horse was longer odds over here, obviously I’m going to go make my bed over here.

So that was really my first introduction to, you know, value shopping. Yeah. And, um, yeah, that’s, that’s really where the light bulb went on for me and like figuring out what value is and how to go find it these days in the USA, which pools are you the most active in a multi-racial pools? My wife calls me a pig for whore.

You never met a pick for, at this point. You won’t play. Is that what I’m hearing? That’s basically what it is. Yeah. I don’t know what it is, but I do know for certain what it is that draws me to it. And it’s knowing that I only have to pick a winner. And that for me is a breath of fresh air. And in terms of finding your edge, you talked about how you believe you can get an edge in your handicapping.

Having a great sense of class going from circuit to circuit makes sense as a racing manager for a place that runs horses all over that you’d have that sense. But what about on the wagering side? Are you doing anything special to try to maximize value and get an edge? Well, you know, I, I’m not using any computer programs or anything like that.

Um, I, you know, I have a way of, um, you know, finalizing my selections and stuff, but. Uh, I, the tools I use Pete, or I love using the prov, the double probables, um, I love using the will pays, uh, you know, just basic stuff that it’s available to everybody out there. And I just try to take that information and apply it to what I’m looking at.

And then from there, I try to leverage my money in the best way possible and, you know, hope for the best. Are you looking at the sort of ABC strategy? Are you doing something like that more intuitive or are you okay, just, uh, doing something more akin to what we might call caveman tickets because you know, you feel like the signal in the bedding is strong enough that you’re going to be able to.

Okay. Well, that’s a good point and I am, I am not neither for or against caveman tickets. I, I play them sometimes. Um, but I do use the ABC method and I, until somebody shows me a better method. Um, I’m going to keep on using that because when you’re right, you need to be hitting that thing multiple times, period, because it’s hard to be.

Right. You know, it’s, it’s not easy to, to, to cold deck something and to get it right. So when you are right by golly, you need to get, you know, you need to reap the benefits. So, um, the ABC method really just, you know, it ensures that when you’re right, you are gonna, you’re going to hit that thing properly.

Are you more inclined to, uh, to go narrow in your pick for bats? Or are you more inclined to spread or does it just depend on the sequence? It’s all sequenced dependent. Um, you know, if we’re talking about a sequence of four races that have, you know, 10 plus horses in each, each race and, um, you know, a, uh, a post time, favorite, average post time, favorite of, you know, five to two in each race, then.

You know what, um, I may consider that caveman option because, you know, it’s, you know, it’s more conducive for a big payoff. Um, now, if this is a sequence where I’m just flat out against a big, you know, one to two shot or something like that, Then I, I’m gonna make sure that I, if my opinion is correct, that I hit it, you know, I’m not gonna, uh, that’s the worst feeling in the world is when you’re right but wrong.

Oh, you’re, you’re talking to a tacit, us backer. So I, I feel, I feel like I’m, I feel like I have had that experience very recently. If I, if I do say so myself, do you feel like in contest not having your favorite bet the pick four is, uh, is that a difficult thing? Does that make contests a little bit harder for you?

And how do you, Jay does it’s it’s funny you bring that up because you know, my daily, you know, grinding plays, you know, pick fours, pick fives, and you go into these, uh, contests and, you know, you have a double available to you, but you know, what I’ve noticed about these doubles is you got these guys like Jonathan Kenshin that will just go in there and completely take all the money out of the pool.

So. Uh, you know, it’s, uh, it’s tough to, uh, make it, uh, on the doubles in the contest, but, um, yeah, you know, it’s, it is a little bit tougher for me to, uh, transition, uh, on a contest day into that. But, um, with that being said, you know, the wind bed is, is still the best thing to cure that, or you can sort of make your own pick and you don’t have to play every race in the sequence, but it is interesting that it was a, essentially a bottom up try key that got you there.

Do you, was that just because of this one situation or do you think that’s a bet you might be a little bit inclined to do a little bit more of at least in the contest world? You know, I’ve always, when I play, uh, vertically, I’ve always been, uh, a guy that likes to try to find the horses that I like in the race that are value and play off of those.

That’s kind of how I’ve always, uh, Formulated those type of tickets. So, um, I’ll, I’ll continue to keep doing it. Um, now more of it, I may, I may look to parcel out some more of my play, uh, for situations like that, because it, you know, in a way it did remind me that, um, you know, it, it doesn’t take a pick five and a pick four to have a score like that, you know?

So, um, one thing it’s good to have that I’ll add. The idea that I feel like long shots. A lot of the time, it’s easier to find ones. I mean, just on the math, they run second and third a lot more than they win. So if in your handicap and you find them, you know, you can have that in the pick for that great long shot that runs second or third, a 20 to one, doesn’t get you anything.

Whereas in the vertical pools, it’s a way to, to be, uh, a day maker, if not contest maker, if not something even better than that, if you can, if you can hit it. Right. And just combined with, with the logicals it’s I know in my own play, when I look at them, I think, you know, I really should be doing a little bit more in the vertical pools, especially when you can find those situations.

I’ll ask you one more and then I’ll let you get out of here. Cause I’ve kept you longer than I said already. But you talked about the situations that you look for clearly pay situations are, are one of them when you, when you scope out a sequence and say, okay, I want to get involved in there. Cause I think it’s going to be a meltdown or alone front runner.

What’s another Blake Jesse situation that you might find when looking over a two day contest card where you just know you’re going to want to try to get your money. Um, you know, I, I love horses that are, you know, the, um, you know, the public darling horses kind of, you know, like, uh, trying to give you an example here, like a Bella Sheena, you know, Um, you know, where you just, the public seems to like become enamored and in love with a horse and you are the opposite about them.

That’s, uh, that’s, you know, I love those situations because it’s number one, you’re getting a big pool to play into. And, uh, if you’re right, you know, there’s going to be a lot of money to go around. So, um, that’s, that’s one situation, but getting back to the pace situation, you know, I still have not found a better, you know, situation and, uh, two dead red speed horses being in the same race.

Um, you know, when you have two horses that have to weigh and they only have one way of going, which is on the lead and I’m going to die, trying to get there, you know, there’s not, it’s not a better situation to be a part of. I mean, they, I mean, it’s. It’s physics. They’re going to come back to you. I mean, it’s just the bottom.

Well, you try typically in that situation to play against both of them or, or just, or try to separate I’ll play against both of them. And, um, you know, I’ll play them in multi races and I’ll play, uh, horizontal too. But you know, the other major situation that I, in my opinion, that I, I really feel like I Excel at is, um, you know, starting pick threes and pick fours, pick fives.

Even the first race of the sequences is the only race that the betters can see the odds of the horses. So beating the favorite in the first leg for me is always like, gonna be more valuable than being the favorite in the second or third or fourth leg. Um, so I I’ve always, uh, Um, you know, tried to use that as a, um, you know, as a, kind of a little angle and, um, you know, this is kind of funny, but when I was, uh, you know, kind of a smaller player, I would, um, always, you know, play the pick three in a race where the pick four starts.

And I would do that because I felt like a player like myself today. I’m never touching that pick three pool, I’m going to be playing the pick four pool. Cause it’s the one that’s got the big pool. And back then I had the thinking that if I play this pick three pool, I’m not going to have to be playing against all these sharp tycoon players.

I’m going to get a, you know, a pool, that’s got a much lower IQ in it. So, um, that’s kind of something that I did back in the day and we’d have some success with felt like I would get a. You know, a little, um, higher payoff than what I should simply because those whales weren’t in that pool, they were just on a bigger pool.

I love that idea of the pool IQ. Um, Mike bologna has talked about that focusing on when there’s a big day, whether it’s Breeder’s cup or Kentucky Derby looking around at, at other tracks historically was something he would’ve done. Same idea, game selection in poker. Now, of course it’s changed so much and I’ll keep you on here for one more because of this.

Cause we went down this road, it’s changed so much with the advent of the computer bedding where you can get this sharp, scalable computer money showing up in any pool, anywhere virtually. And so has, is that strategy gone out of your arsenal or in general with the amount that you bet, are there any strategies you’ve developed to try to specifically deal with the fact that there’s so much sharp computer money being built around the country?

Well, yeah, when I have a big opinion, I’ve learned that you get your money in early. Don’t wait until late, because if you wait late, what what’ll happen is is the computers won’t have a chance to adjust to what their, um, you know, their data’s telling them to do. So if you get your money in early, they can at least adjust and, um, you know, bet the other combinations and w you know, where they see a deficiency and, you know, basically make your payoff if you’re correct higher than what it would have been, if you bet late.

So if I’m betting a $5,000 bet or something, I’m wanna make sure I get that in it, 15, 20 minutes to post so that, um, maybe a little later, so I can get a look at the horse in the paddock, but I’m going to make sure at least, you know, eight to 10 minutes to post, I get that bed end so that the computers can have a chance to, um, you know, run their software and, uh, play the other, um, Play the other variables.

Absolutely. Get the other combos. You mentioned looking at horses in the paddock. So I gotta, I gotta grab you there. At what point did you develop that skill and how important is it to what you do? Yeah. You know, hanging around trainers and horse people, you know, you ask questions and, um, what I’ve learned is everybody’s willing to give you an answer right.

Or wrong. Um, so I would just ask questions, you know, what, what are you looking at? You know, and whatever, you know, what should I be looking at? And that sort of thing, and the best advice I can give to anybody for, uh, looking at horses in the paddock, you’ve already done your handicapping at this point. So I’m looking for just, you know, a checkmark basically.

It’s something that tells me. Okay. Yep. Everything looks good here. Go ahead and go with your opinion. So when I look in the paddock, I’m looking to see that the horse is not looking around at everything. I don’t want him distracted. I don’t want any erratic head movement. I don’t want any kidney, sweat. I don’t want them, you know, exerting any undue energy.

I want them just to, you know, have their mind on business and if possible, I’d like them to be looking at the ground and have a bowed neck and dappled out if possible. But you know, as long as their mind is on business and they’re not spending any undue energy, I’m, I’m okay with going along with my opinion and, um, you know, firing.

So that’s how I, you won’t throw one in on looks. You’re just more likely to take one that you were going to bed and take them out. That’s right. Well, let me, let me, I’ll I’ll I will backtrack there because I will throw one in on looks as long as there’s something to go along with it. Like I’m throwing this one in on the looks because it also has pedigree, you know, it’s trying the turf for the first time or.

You know, something like that, but man, it’s hard to just throw one in on looks because I, I mean, I didn’t grow up around horses, you know, it’s, it’s hard for me to, you know, say that, you know, that horse just winked at me.

All right, Blake, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate you taking so much time out and sharing so much with me and the, in the money listeners. It’s been a great pleasure. Hey, you’re very welcome, Pete. Thanks for having me on. And that’s going to do it for this edition of the, in the money players podcast.

We’ll thank JK and absentia for all the fine work he’s been doing. And I want to thank of course, Blake Jesse, shout out to our sponsors stats, race lens, black type, thoroughbreds, 10 strike racing, and the thoroughbred retirement foundation in particular. Most of all, I want to thank all of you, the listeners.

Hopefully you’re going to enjoy this show as much as we enjoyed recording it. This show has been a production of in the money media in the money media’s business manager is drew Kotani. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. May you win all your photos.

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