Show #9 — Tuesday, January 22 (Plums on the Table)

There’s a lot going on on the latest ITM pod. Have we seen the Oaks winner? Has JK changed his mind about the roulette bet? Should “Too Hot for DRF” become a regular pod segment? The answers to these questions plus Eddie Olczyk stops by to talk racing and deliver advice that could save your life. . .literally.

That’s the description I wrote for today’s show. Please ck it out. Also, as promised, here’s a link to the article I wrote about Eddie O after he won the Pegasus contest last year.


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May You Win All Your Photos,


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***Please note this was done with AI and likely contains errors and inaccuracies. ***

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is show number nine, rapid probably approaching double digits. It is officially the Tuesday, January 22nd, 2019 show that we are recording part of it. The JK part on the night of the 21st, because the 22nd is a travel day for him. I’m your host, Peter Thomas four and a towel back with you.

In the Brooklyn bunker and it is cold down here. Folks. I posted the picture of myself a couple of weeks ago when I thought it was cold down here. No, no, no, no. Now it’s a really cold down here. I’ve got the Navy scarf on, I’ve got two or three layers. I’ve got the giant orange hat, a wool socks. I should make it through.

But if you hear a chattering of teeth, that is why. And you can probably hear, I have a cold, I’m going to blame that. On the internal temperature in the bunker as well, but I’m going [00:01:00] to have my spirits lifted from the co-host of the show who I’ll bring on. Now. He is calling in from the planet, Texas. He is the people’s champion, Jonathan Kitchen what’s up Peter, it’s cold down there in the, in the basement because, uh, because there’s ghosts down there is there’s extra.

What is it? An extra what’s the, what’s the word I’m looking for? And that’s not terrestrial. Cause those are, those are aliens. What’s the. Supernatural is that what you were naturally? That’s what I was looking for. Supernatural beings. They carry a breeze around with them. I’ll tell you the, the heater, the has been going crazy.

The boiler, the pot, the old 1890s pipes in this building. If you were one who believed in ghosts, you think they were, you know, having a peanuckle tournament down here or something over the course of the last few days. Well, how are things in Texas? Is it warm down there? It’s chillier than normal, but it’s, it’s warm.

I mean, like went out with a t-shirt today to go rod, the electric scooter around the neighborhood. So like that you can, [00:02:00] you know, Austin got his own electric scooter for Christmas, but very cool. Yeah. He’s the age where it’s appropriate to be riding around on one of those things.

So he, uh, we, yeah, the weather’s nice. It’s not bad at all. Excellent. And where are your traveling off to tomorrow? Anywhere? Exciting. South Florida. Ooh, you’re going down early for the Pegasus. One of the big stories in racing. And of course this year we have the Pegasus and also the first running of the Pegasus turf.

I will be traveling on Thursday. We’re going to have to figure out what we’re going to do about the Friday show. I should be stable by then and able to just record from London. I’ll just schlep the stuff. On the plane, but going to be doing the new sky racing channel part of their coverage, really looking forward to that.

Why are you going down early? Anything particular cooking? No, I’m just going to hang out. Um, Thursday is the breeders’ cup wager and committee meeting and they’ll have at Gulf stream park on Thursday. So we’ll go ahead and be there [00:03:00] for that eclipse awards Thursday night. Uh, I have some, you know, I presented in the eclipse awards in 2000 and.

16 and like, funny, like in a weird, I just of like been to every eclipse awards since like randomly, like one time our friend Mandy Minger at the DRS saw me at the track and invited me to sit at their table. Uh, just stood up in the back once. I mean, so I I’ll, I’ll probably run by there at least for the cocktail party for the eclipse awards.

And then Friday is, uh, is. You know, the, the contest for the Pegasus contest starts Friday and then Saturday obviously will be a, the big day for the Pegasus and, and, uh, another fun thing I’ll be doing. I’m sure we’ll talk about it on Friday. Is, you know, I, I texted our friend Mike McCarthy and told them that I’m definitely his good luck charm.

I spent the entire week hanging out with him when city of light one won the breeders’ cup dirt mile. So I’ve been invited back to hang out. So I’ll do that a couple of mornings go and hang out and hang out with Mike, uh, at Gulf stream where watching a city of light, getting ready to, to run in the Pegasus.

[00:04:00] Feel free to record some audio who knows? You might get something fun we can share with listeners on the show. I’m a believer and maybe trying to incorporate a little more creative, uh, sound bites for us to bring on. And McCarthy usually has things to say that are pretty interesting. Just make sure he knows he’s being recorded.

My other question for you. J K how bad of a job did you do up on stage the other year? I mean, I’ve watched some of those presenters. Yes. You have your occasional incredible pro broadcaster. The Janine Edwards, the Nick Lux. But, but some of those people, I mean, if you can’t do better than them, I don’t know what you’re doing wrong.

Was it a Steve Harvey situation? What exactly happened up there? You know, what’s funny is that was the year that Steve Harvey did that. And I had like, had this idea in my brain that I was going to like, kind of make a Steve Harvey joke. I didn’t play on the joke. I was just going to do it. If it worked, I like had it ready, like in my brain.

And someone did it before me an absolutely bombed like the room didn’t even lie. That’s a tough crowd. Nick luck [00:05:00] last year was absolutely hilarious. And it was just one of those, like the crowd was not hip enough to sorry folks, but the crowd was just not hip enough to, uh, get the awesome humor. I’d at least that was my opinion.

I think Janine is in that role. She’s fantastic as well. It should be a fun night. And of course, if it all goes wrong, JK head to the back Weaver, I’m sure there’ll be a harness gimmick somewhere. You can put some money down. Christine leaves his clothes. That’s where we hung out last time. So I don’t know.

But, uh, yeah, it is a tough crowd, I think because, you know, it’s funny, you know, you can say something offensive about a big crowd of people because. Whenever I say this, whoever the people that are listening that might be in that crowd, they’ll definitely say, Oh, he’s not talking about that, but they just it’s.

The crowd just seems to take themselves a little bit too seriously. They, uh, I want it to be more about them and less about funny. I just think that, that, that was probably part of the reason that, that, um, That some people scoffed at some of Nick’s jokes, but I thought Nick was wonderful. I thought [00:06:00] when he ran around in the crowd at the beginning and it was poking fun at different people, I thought it was really fun.

So, and some people rolled with it. Well, I mean, the, the, the pit with Chad Brown was very funny. I thought there was some good, there was a lot of good stuff that did go over. I just thought it was okay. Better than the crowd appreciated for. And yeah, it’s one of those things where, when you’re dealing with a pretty moneyed audience, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re bound to get some people who maybe don’t have the best sense of humor, least of all, about themselves.

Funny story. When I was in London, had dinner with Nick luck and he was talking about his experience hosting the eclipse awards. And he brought, he told a little insider, uh, part of the, that Chad Brown story, where he was nervous to do it. Just child is, you know, kind of a hard exterior guy. You never know what you’re going to get from him.

And, and, you know, especially when you’re poking in front of him, at him in front of his peers, Nick luck went up to Chad before the show and still had not decided if he was going to do the bit. And, and when he did, Chad introduced him to his parents, [00:07:00] To, to Chad’s parents. So Nick said, you know, when he went backstage, he’s like, I’m definitely gonna do the job.

There’s no way he’s gonna be mean to me in front of his parents. That’s a good, that’s a pro broadcasters instincts right there. So we’ve gone on for a while. JK just about talking about random things that are going on in our lives. It turns out according to the results of our survey listeners really enjoy just sort of knowing what’s up when we’re less business and more informal.

We had, uh, a lot of comments about that. And when that was one of the choices you could pick up your favorite thing on the show, a lot of people said it was their favorite thing on the show. Just listening to us, talk about these, these weird horseplayer journeys, where on. One area that didn’t get as much love as I would have liked to from a broadcaster’s point of view is our race recaps.

I got the impression that a lot of listeners feel like, you know, maybe we’ve watched the race once and maybe phoning it in a little when it comes to the race recaps. And I have to say objectively. I think sometimes we’ve done an [00:08:00] amazing job on the biggest races. I feel like our takes are pretty good.

Hold up pretty well. But on the weekend week out, maybe some of these listeners have a point. Any thoughts on what we might do to make it better? I don’t know, it’s a tricky thing. I think for both of us, I think it’s important to, to cover our, our stars and, and the big races. Um, but I think both of us is being very horseplay centric.

No, I think that’s kind of the, the, the, what brought us to this game was the wagering. I, I’ve never felt the need to rush to judgment when a race is over to like, make a decision about what that race meant. Now, it’s just not important. In the moment, if you haven’t already made the decision, right. You can just wait until the horses come back and then you can kind of let everything kind of settle a little bit, uh, have a better understanding of what happened throughout the rest of the car and what the bias was.

The figures come back, all of those things outside of like trouble or excuses or bad rides. Or a jump up performances. I don’t really, I don’t have a [00:09:00] ton to say like the comp is a great example. Uh, war will was good. Uh, he likes the dirt, uh, like he got a good trip. He ran, well, I didn’t see a figure cause I don’t really care for what it’s good.

Right. Is he beating game winner and improbable? No, he, you know, so. At this point, it’s, you know, with the Derby trail and another reason what the Derby trail is, I’ve had to teach myself to like temper my excitement. You know, I talk about it when, when the Derby season comes upon us in the past, I used to make that mistake all, all the time.

I would fall in love with horses right now. I, I I’d fall in love with, with pyro. I’d fall in love with Verizon. I’d fall in love with. All of these horses that are doing impressive things early in their three-year-old year and it, and I pay the price for it later. I’ve tried to take a little bit more of a more methodic approach to it.

Well, maybe the thing to do is to just replace anything that resembles. Perfunctory [00:10:00] content with stuff. That’s going to be more interesting to the listeners. Maybe we should make a more conscious effort to look for stars in the making or horses to watch, or at the same time, we don’t want to add too much work to our plates and scour afterwards, the kind of things we wouldn’t have necessarily done, but.

It’s not a bad idea. And I mean, heck maybe we can even crowdsource it a little bit and have people point out performances to us that you want to get takes on because I do want to give HorsePlayers content. They can use to cash bets, and I’d rather do a little bit more work in that direction than to give the super obvious analysis coming out of races like Lola comp plus, you can get such great.

Reviews of all the stakes races, our old colleagues at DRF on the video team do such a good job. There’s places to get that. Maybe we just have to find a way to focus our energy and, or rely on our community to give listeners [00:11:00] something that they’ll prefer. What do you think about that idea? Um, I think we, I think we both have plenty of opinions about a lot of different races.

No, they’re popular races. They’re races that, you know, we just kind of feel like we have to talk about like, I just don’t really think I have anything clever to say in the lit comp I mean the fractions weren’t that fast hog Creek hustle at 1301 with Fleur Anja made a nice run and ran late. He’s the type of horse that, you know, I I’d be looking at bedding down the line.

The problem is, is everyone’s going to see that no one misses these races. There’s no hidden trips. And Derby perhaps then everyone sees him there’s analysis for days with a lot of smart people talking about it on Twitter and on DRF on lots of different places. So it’s like hog Creek. Hustle’s going to go off at six to one, four to one, five to one in the next start.

And it, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to find those situations and these in these Derby preps, sometimes I think flow plays or bias plays make a lot more sense. I agree that trip plays specifically. It’s hard to get much equity because of the amount of eyeballs on it. [00:12:00] But I do think there are sometimes subtle angles.

I don’t have one here, but another thing we can do with the benefit of hindsight, once some horses have started to run back is maybe talk about these preps a little bit. Retroactively when the horses next to appear when we have a stronger opinion that might lead more directly to cashing a ticket, rather than trying to manufacture an opinion for something to talk about on a podcast when our opinions are unformed.

Okay. That said we probably don’t need to do too much more about the comp, but there are a couple of other races I want to talk about from the weekend that I am certain you saw. Let’s start off with Roy H has returned to the races running a one Oh nine buyer speed figure in the palace. Verdi’s how good is this horse JK?

I’ll tell you what Mark called from Vegas. And, and they had, uh, uh, they had, uh, uh, a matchup, the only match that they had and, uh, in Vegas on Saturday was Roy H versus the field. And do you want to guess what Roy H w w what, what the number Mark gave me [00:13:00] was this is for the golden Shaheen. No, no. This was him.

Verse the field on Saturday that sys. Yeah, it was him versus the field one to five. It was, yeah, it was minus 100. Okay. So yeah, I mean, actually that translates, uh, I think that translates exactly. Right. Right, right. So I passed obviously someone didn’t, I don’t know who it was. I mean, I know who it was. I’m not gonna say, but, but, uh, Marvin informed me of someone bet like three grand.

Well, they, they ended up getting the money. Speaking of the golden Shaheen that will presumably be the next stop right now listed at nine to four buy sell, hold, JK sell really? I, I mean, I wouldn’t, I’m sorry, not sell, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold. I always screw this up. Here’s the thing. I mean, won’t you get, I want you to get pretty close to nine to four on the day.

I mean, pretty close. Depends who shows up. I just don’t know. It’s it’s too early. You’d have to do some research. What is Imperial hints status? What’s [00:14:00] Navarro. God is promises fulfilled running. These are all questions I’d want to answer before taking that price, but I also wouldn’t be in a hurry to sell it.

Yeah. I mean, yeah. So not, not sell, um, hold for sure. I mean, he’s really good. I mean, he’s really, really good. And to think it, I’ve tried to beat him like three or four times and, and I’ve, I’ve done it once. And the time that I did it was when his wind Dre falling dropped Mike Smith and Trey Fong. Riderless carried Roy H out into the, to the nine path.

And, uh, the D’Amato horse. I always bet, uh, came up the ransom. The moon came up the rail at Del Mar I, and then every other time I’m trying to beat him. He smoked me, he beat me in the Breeder’s cup. Last two years ago, it Delmare beat me in the breeders cup. I had a miss year in the Breeder’s cup. I realized how good he was.

He’s a really, really good sprinter. Really good sprinter. Let’s talk about another race from Santa Anita over the weekend, that will segue into a game of buy, sell, hold preview. I’m selling. [00:15:00] Let’s talk about this hype Philly floor, Della Mar who made her debut on Sunday six and a half. Furlongs at Santa Anita ends up winning in imperious fashion with.

The Gallup out to me being the absolute strongest part of the race. What did you think, how were you aware of the hype? Did you participate in this race? It seemed like this could have been a JK, a pick five single. And what do you think going forward? And then we’ll get to the bar aspect, but I’m trying to repeat history to a certain extent.

I remember a couple of years ago we were hanging out and it Lynn and we had the word was out on mastery before he ran. And we hurried up and bet a future, I think at 125 to 101, something along those lines for him to win the Derby. Uh, when I started to see the workout reports with all the minuses and ache, Oaks, Philly, and all of this stuff with, with, uh, Florida Lamar, I [00:16:00] decided that I was going to like try to get down.

So I started looking. She was like 12 to one before the race. She was 12 to one to win the Kentucky, the race. Ridiculous. And I was thinking to myself and I almost justified like how it was. And I was like, look, if she’s 12 to one, now she wins. She’s going to be like four or five, six, seven to one. And then if she wins her next prep and she goes in undefeated, she’s going to be the favorite on Oaks day.

I mean, I mean, given the Les jaywalk does some, you know, you know, unless she just doesn’t lose or, you know, super impressive. So. I think she’s really good. The figure wasn’t that fast 78. Yeah. And I, I get it, you know, the whole, she was, she was up. It’s not fast enough to be the nine to one that she is now.

That’s for sure. That’s all hype. You’re getting the worst of it taking that number. I mean, it’s, it’s not just jaywalk who’s out there. There’s also Bella feena out there. I just don’t understand mathematically how a maiden winner, no matter how impressive. I mean maybe if the figure had come back at [00:17:00] 96, Five or something, but even then it would be too short just because of all the attendant questions and with where the figure came back.

Even though she had tons it’s, it’s, it’s a silly price. The height machine is going strong. The connections assure that Baffert and Godolphin here, but, uh, one to watch for sure, and really, really interesting, but a little bit tricky. I think in terms of wagering, did you bet on Sunday? I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t know I was going to play a pick five into her, but I just didn’t like a lot of things underneath and didn’t feel like there was going to be much value.

Um, on her. I mean, I felt like everyone was going to kind of single on the, in the pick five there, so I would have hadn’t passed. All right. Makes sense. Let’s talk about some other action from Sunday, not on the racetrack, but on the grid iron. We used to do the sports betting podcast. So I’m always tempted you and hopefully the listeners will stick with us.

It was one of the most incredible days of football. It was the best of days. It was the worst of days for me. [00:18:00] I can’t get over how bad the officiating was. I know everybody’s saying it, but for me, it just, it as a fan, it marred the day. And I’ll tell you what, as a better it made the day, even worse. I can’t remember feeling worse about losing a bat then that saints bet.

And I’ll also say this for all the people who are going around, talking about how the saints were robbed. Forget the saints. The saints had plenty of opportunities to win. Drew breeze kind of went away at a bad time in the game. I don’t feel that bad for the saints in their fans, you know, who I feel bad for myself and the people who bet on them who deserve to win and have rant.

Yeah. That, that, that was a tough, a tough situation. You know, I think that when you, when you look at racing in football and, and just a lot of things in life in general, that if you try to focus in on one reason why something didn’t happen. There’s probably seven or eight other things that have, that could have happened earlier that could have [00:19:00] overcame that, or, or we’re just as responsible, you know, obviously that, that, that situation looked awful, look terrible that you know, what the passenger affairs should have been called.

And it obviously impacted the outcome of the game. Uh, it’s just tricky, you know, it’s, it’s tricky, but, you know, look I’ve, I, I you’re, you’re talking to a guy who lost that Patriots, a bet with that Patriots game on that, you know, rugby play with at the dolphin. So I don’t, uh, I don’t feel sorry for you when it comes to the badge.

The other thing I’ll say is I think it’s time to bring, replay into these other calls. I mean, what’s the point of having it at all. If you’re going to let too egregious. Calls on the no calls on the same play, determine who goes to the super bowl in VAR, in soccer. They’re using it to look at penalty kicks.

I don’t see why this should be any different. I think it makes a mockery out of the attention to detail and the rest of the process of the game. And I think there’s gotta be a way where you can [00:20:00] look at the most important calls and the idea that it’s not reviewable is a joke to me. I fear that. Opening up judgment calls like that, like holding our pass interference, um, or other, other, other judgment type calls.

If you open those up to replay, I feel like you’re going to, you know, that football is going to eerily resemble racing and the, and the, uh, and the stewards, right. It it’s it’s. You’re taking, uh, too much of an opinion into account. When, when, and it’s a game that’s supposed to be kind of played fast and, and, and it’s a judgment call.

If it’s passing interference or if it’s holding, you can call holding on every play. You can all pass interference on every play. Maybe you can challenge once a game in that realm, or you find a way to severely limited, but you at least have. The opportunity on the play that decides the game to use the technology available.

I just think it’s hypocritical and weird the way that some things get looked at and then more important things. Don’t the line seems very arbitrary and doesn’t make [00:21:00] much sense to me. I mean, I take your point. You can’t review every play, but there’s gotta be there. There might be another answer here. The, the end of the Patriots game yesterday was like the longest ending of a football game ever in the history of America.

They had like. For extremely long are three extremely long reviews. I think it just slows the game down too much. And I get where you’re coming from. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t should get rid of it completely then to that point, if you want to make the game move quickly and you’re willing to live with human error like this, why review anything?

That’s fair. I just think th two feet inbounds is a much clearer, easier, more precise thing to be able to look at rather than. Did that person I’m telling you, it’s racing. I’m bringing, I’m not even an intentionally bringing it back to racing. It really is racing all over again. Well, Well, I mean, it was passing her fears, but I mean, did he push them that hard?

Like, did it keep him from catching the ball? Did it, keeps him keep him from passing the horse? Oh, we’ll get it. Did it actually impact the [00:22:00] outcome of the play? Did you know? Oh, he wasn’t going to catch it anyways. So. He did, he was passing her fears. We’re not gonna call it cause he wasn’t going to, I mean, Oh my God, rule it.

You can rule it on catchable, which it wasn’t. But you, if you want to say that, okay then where was the flag for the helmet? Talmud. So uncatchable is the same. Uncatchable is the equivalent of. Uh, the horse wasn’t going to win anyway. All right. This is a question we got from multiple listeners. Who’s worse, JK racing, stewards, or NFL referees.

The system of racing stewards is definitely worse than the system of the NFL. It’s a little bit more of a well-oiled machine. They have going over there. Uh, and I commend them for usually getting it right with a lot of these situations. They make adjustments. Um, and, and I’ll give them that you’ll give, so that, that’s the way it’ll go put, take the video review aside just basic competence, NFL, referees versus racing stewards, uh, NFL referees.

Those guys are like all lawyers. I mean, [00:23:00] there’s a, it’s, it’s not an easy thing to become a, an NFL official. And I think for the most part, those games are well officiated. I think when it comes to baseball, you know, the three big sports, baseball, football, and basketball, I think football probably has the most.

Uh, most well oiled machine when it comes to fishing. Okay. We have another area that I wanted to talk about on the show. And it has to do with sports gambling, how racing is, or isn’t taking advantage of sports gambling. Couple of stories in the news this week made me think of it. One, of course, being these prices, Derby futures, apparently, uh, forced to take down from the casino.

And the other sort of parallel thing I wanted to bring up was the Santa Anita roulette bet where I think I could, you know, get some guys on the corner to put in a pool about how long it’s gonna take me to [00:24:00] walk Mugsy the handicapping Labrador around the block and handle more money. But I want to, to get your take on either of those instances and just in general, I just feel like the early returns in the racing sports betting era are not.

Boating well for racing, I see the same kinds of small thinking. Lack of understanding the big picture that I think could really turn this into a crisis rather than an opportunity. Well, I think there’s a couple of things. One is we have to present a wager that is not intimidating for. Uh, participant when you, when you want to bet the game of football at the super bowl, you bet the Rams, or you bet the Patriots, you know, there’s a line, you can explain that to someone.

And in 25 seconds, 30 seconds, here we go. That’s what sports has going for the ease and the simplicity of the wager. And also, you know, an annoying, an annoying, you know, addition to the whole situation is [00:25:00] a lot of people just think they know football. Cause they watch sports center, they play Madden and they, they played football when they were a kid.

Right. Unfortunately racing doesn’t have that. We don’t have the ability to just invite people in and they already think they have a basic knowledge, um, to participate. That’s a problem. So we have to do something to make it more approachable. Uh, second of all, uh, we’re not priced correctly. We’ve talked about that for a million of years and they were just not priced correctly.

We’re we’re 20% takeout. They’re 5% takeout. So a huge difference there. You got to get that corrected in some way. And then I think more importantly is, is really finding. A way to reach those guys, those guys and girls that are doing other forms of gaming to reach out to them and find a way to bring them to our site, to our, you know, to our sport.

And we just haven’t done that. For me. I just think it’s brought a lot of problems into relief. Like you’ve said, the fixed price thing I think is also a real problem. I feel like the exchange model is right [00:26:00] there in front of us as a way to get fixed prices and a lower takeout. I wish. That whole conversation had gone differently since the beginning, but obviously the fight is not over.

And I still think that’s the quickest way to get to a place where you could market racing to sports gamblers. Let’s talk about each of those issues. Very specifically. Now let’s start with. The removal of the bedding, the fixed odds betting from the casino. To me, they’re the, the defenders would say, well, it’s their intellectual property.

They should be the only ones taking a bet on it. But the problem with that is, especially in this world that we’re in now with all the different. Options and competition. I feel like any time you’re giving people an excuse to pay attention to horse racing, it’s going to lead, not just to more awareness, but also eventually to more handle.

If you have a future position, you’re [00:27:00] very likely to want to hedge off of that position in the parimutuel pools, especially with the sea of liquidity we find on Kentucky Derby day, I think there had to be a way to work. Together rather than just shut down when it comes to these, uh, anti post Kentucky Derby betting odds, I believe anti post betting is just a great way to engage fans and get people involved.

The biggest race in the country in terms of popularity being the Derby. Seems like the place to do it. I don’t know all the story. Maybe there were some political missteps on the side of the book that I’m not aware of. And maybe if I had all the facts, I would be more sympathetic. I have to say. I don’t like how it seems.

The typical racing fighting for the slice of the diminishing pie. Not thinking about making the pie bigger, your take on that. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s very similar to how I felt about the [00:28:00] racetracks being angry, that, you know, horse tourneys and DRF tournaments and Derby Wars were all, you know, using their product.

Um, and, and, and for me, it’s, it’s more eyes on the sports, more people looking at it. It’s only going to be good. You know, how many people talked about. Uh, Johnny Vellows when odds all the time, like leading up, it was like a big thing. People were talking about it. People were posting their, their Derby future tickets.

So it was getting people excited about the Kentucky Derby, getting people talking about the Derby. And it’s annoying to me, the decision-makers are Churchill. It’s like, I could just see them sitting in a room being like, Oh, we’re not going to let them do that. Bet. Because we want them to bet in our Derby future pool, if we’re letting them get there, they’re not going to bet in hours.

But the problem with that is, like you said, it’s like the, the, the casino version is fixed odds. The, the, the Derby one, the parimutuel one, you know, it’s going to move and it’s going to move into like Sunday night. So you can’t even hear that the track on Saturday. And you [00:29:00] want to bet a horse at 25 to one.

And he could go off at 16 to one or 1301 or 12 to one comes Sunday night, cause it’s going to be moving. So it’s, you know, it’s unfortunate, it’s unfortunate. And I’m a, I’m a rising tides lift all ships type of guy. But, uh, I’ve always been that way. And when it, when it comes to a lot of different things in the world and I just, you know, I, I don’t, uh, I don’t understand when people see it the other way.

You and me both, I’ve just never been a fan of the parimutuel anti post. It doesn’t like I can’t get my head around it. It doesn’t make sense to me, I guess they handle okay. On it. Cause they run it back, uh, every year and I guess they are protecting that little piece of it, but I think it’s missing the bigger picture in a pretty big way.

Speaking of, of handle or lack thereof. I know you’ve defended the roulette bat. Are you ready to let it go? I wasn’t so much defending it as it exactly was. I was defending the idea behind it. Like what the purpose of it was. I didn’t, I, I wasn’t like, it was going to be like a, it was a save [00:30:00] racing and it was going to handle more than the pick six.

I just simply thought that it was an interesting way. Like if I went to Santa Nita with a newbie, like I would a hundred percent like. Talk to them about that bet. It’s an easy way for them to not lose money for the day, because you can, you can find, you know, different pairings of horses and have a better chance of winning and just keep it churning.

I mean, I guess you can bet show or whatever, right. That it shows a much better deal than that. Bet. I mean, I feel like it was dead in the water for me on, I tried to keep an open mind, you know, you made a compelling case and on the first day, I wish I could remember the horses in question, but you had a two to five shot get beat.

And for the grouping that beat it, uh, I, I think it paid, uh, You know, three 20, it just, when you’re taking out is that I you’re, you’re not going to be able to present a compelling product. And here’s the thing I get what you’re saying. You like innovation and you don’t want to thwart people coming up with creative ideas, but let’s, let’s use the analogy of a [00:31:00] car.

You can have a car that looks super cool on the outside. It’s all tricked out. I’m not a car guy. I won’t be able to give you the exact right. Uh, analogy here, but you know, this, the world’s most beautiful chassis, a Ducati, but for an automobile in terms of design, if it ain’t got no engine in it, it’s not going to be a very good car.

And I think with the roulette bet between the two. The parimutuel fact and the rake we’ve got a car that has no engine in it. I it’s it’s it’s, you know, it handles it’s the handle is terrible on it. I would imagine that’s something that we’ll probably talk about on Thursday in the breeders cup wagering committee, where to go with, you know, the head to heads that that’s the breeders’ cup, um, started last year.

And you know, obviously since it’s at Santa Anita, the roulette will be in place. If breeders’ cup wants it. So, you know, having that conversation with them about whether or not we’re going to go on with a head to heads, or if we’re going to just do the roulette bet. Um, you know, [00:32:00] you know, I can tell you right now, my vote will be to do the head to heads.

Um, I think that there’s probably a better way to go about it. It was, it was, uh, I, I don’t, I didn’t like, um, all the U S Europe ones that we did last year. I think that was kind of. I understand what they were trying to do there. They were trying to kinda, you know, they thought that thunder, snow and Mendelssohn one was like the most clever thing in the world because you’re going to get into dolphin versus Coolmore.

And you’re going to be able to get some, some interest from, from overseas and, and whatever. So I understand where they were going there, but I think there’s some, probably some more fun. Uh, head to head options that you can do. And maybe with a little bit more planning, we’ll be able to get those done. I don’t know how you do it, but here’s my free consulting.

Come up with bats that you can promote in the run-up to the event, whether it’s with videos or part of the marketing of the event, if it could be the whatever the storyline is, and I get it, you don’t always know the storyline. Until close enough to the race where that would make this suggestion very hard to execute, but if you could [00:33:00] promote the bet, so people know what they’re talking about.

Even the USA, Europe, it’s confusing. Cause there’s horses running for USA that used to run in Europe and it’s not, I just don’t think I get it, the rider cup idea, but I don’t think it’s compelling. And I don’t think it really fully works for racing. I’m not saying you can’t do it at all. I, and I really enjoyed the enable versus the world one, but I think don’t give up on that idea.

Keep working at brainstorming it. See if you can lower the pricing. See if there’s anything that can be done to make it more appealing. I feel like those bets could work. There’s an answer out there somewhere. You guys are sharp. Maybe you’ll find it. Well, here’s, here’s some, here’s some ideas that we had last year.

I’ll just kind of throw out there just to get people’s brains working. Also tell a funny story. Stephen Jackson, former running back, went to Oregon state played for the, uh, I guess he played for the Rams. Someone else too. Yeah. He played for two different teams, but anyways, He’s a big racing fan. He was at the table next to us at the breeders’ cup.

He bet the, the, the [00:34:00] head-to-head matchup that had newspaper of record in it. But because she had, I R E next to her name, he thought she was, she didn’t, he didn’t know that she was. Yeah, USA. Yeah. That’s very understand. That’s very confusing. I mean, I don’t blame the guy. So some of the Paul Matisse and I came up with, and I, you know, and look, and I’ll tell you this right now.

And Paul and I talked about the other day, drew Fleming in the breeders cup. They tried really hard to get, they get to take out low. They ran into some issues with the ADW. Um, they’re going to keep on trying to drive that takeout low. They want it to be. As low as possible, but there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of bureaucracy you have to get through when you’re trying to change wagers, you’ve got to go through committees and commissions and governments and all types of stuff.

It’s just, it’s very challenging. Some of the ideas that we had was like, you know, I think when Marley’s freedom, um, and there’s another Baffert in there. We were going to put like Baffert versus the world in, in the, um, Philly and mayor turf, we recommended they did Chad versus the world. You know, Chad had those four horses, right?

For the turf sprint, we were going to do the gray horses, which had been [00:35:00] like, uh, Richard’s boy, uh, Havana, gray disco partner would have been the gray horses versus the rest of them. Um, market the heck out of that, couldn’t you to the, want it to be a bet for the average fan. And then you might create an opportunity for the horseplayer if they, if they get, if they get it wrong.

I, I love that. Yeah, we are going to do, you know, we recommended doing like Monomoy girl and midnight VCU. Versus everyone else. So we, we, we, we made the recommendation of like call m&ms and see if they’ll sponsor the head-to-head bet and make it M and M like, you know, Monomoy girl and midnight VCU, you know, call them Miller light and see if they’ll sponsor the, a, a race where it’s Miller time.

And it’s Peter, all the Peter Miller horses in the, in the turf sprint versus the, you know, whatever. I mean, there’s a lot of different things you can do off of it that can make it a lot of fun and make it interesting and make it try to keep it, you know, close to 50, 50 as possible. And, and just let it, let it be fun for people.

You know, I think the, you know, one of the first axioms I ever heard about [00:36:00] handicapping was the gray horses scare the other ones. I’ve never heard this in my life. My dad told me when I went to lone star park, they used to tell me that, well, they told me a couple of things. I’m not joking. These are the two things they told me.

One of them, I would probably wouldn’t have told if we were on the other airways. The first one they told me was they told me that gray horses scare the other horses. And so the gray horses always win cause they scared the other ones slow down. Naturally of course we see it all the time. The other one, they told me when they were trying to explain to me what first-time Lasix was like, one of my dad’s like kind of rough and tough friends.

He’s like, man, it’s, it’s kinda like, it’s kinda like cocaine just gets a really ready to rock and roll.

So Lord, I know it’s not, it’s not the diarrhetic. It’s not like cocaine at all, but, uh, But nonetheless, I, uh, that’s how I learned. What, what Lasix, first time, late, 60 improve, you could expect a [00:37:00] first time, is that your man, who is your sort of first mentor, I’m spacing on his name. But I think he was in the first article I ever wrote about you, right?

When I plucked you from obscurity. No, that wasn’t hos as awful sharper than that. That was just some random, random racetrack guy. That was, that was saying that you gave me an idea for a segment. A regular segment on this new podcast. JK, you mentioned about how you might not have made that observation on the old show.

I’ve thought of a few things like this stories that we ultimately decided to sensor behind the scenes things. What if we introduce a segment on the new show? Not every show, but just when it comes up too hot for DRF. We need, when I’m telling you what, before, before you locked down the sponsors, we got to get pipes on and tell the jury that may keep all the sponsors away.

The Jerry Bailey story, we will at some point, have a live show. And we will bring out pipes just to tell the Jerry Bailey story. And we will, we will make sure [00:38:00] that the, the faint of heart and the children have left the building. By the time we give the Piper at the Gates of Dawn, the microphone to tell it because they’re sweating, as he says, there’s some squares in it.

Understatement. I have an idea for the first one. I hope that you can join me, but for. The next show. My idea for a guest is to bring in Acacia Courtney, and we kinda need to get her back just a little bit for that little thing she did for us at the breeders’ cup. I have a feeling I could come up with, maybe turn the tables on her a little bit, a little quiz show situation, and see if we can make her squirm.

I’d never seen a human being turned purple JK until we did that segment with Acacia at the Breeder’s cup, man, I’m still I’m. I’m still, uh, I’m still blushing a little bit. I don’t, I don’t blush very easily. I’m too dark to be blessed. There is a, for those who don’t know, you can find that clip out there, but, but we had a lot of fun.

I think Acacia will hopefully be able to find a few minutes for us this week and we’ll, we’ll sneak her on in the [00:39:00] Friday show. Do you think you’ll have time? You will certainly right. Find time to talk about the Pegasus stakes races at some point later this week. Yeah, for sure. I mean, Thursday, night’s going to be tough though.

I know they sometimes try to record early Friday morning. Might have to, might be best for me. That works for me too Friday mornings, better than Thursday. That’s my travel day. So that, that could work out perfectly. I’ll try to get Acacia earlier in the week. We’ll put it all together. There you go. We’re having a real production meeting in the middle of the show.

We’ve got it all figured out. Okay. Any final thoughts from you before we bring in our special guest Eddie old check, looking forward to a fun week, hopefully city of light we’ll, uh, we’ll get the business done. I’ll be rooting for sure. Uh, hopefully I’ll be alive in the contest if he wins on, I should be in the mix somewhere.

So, uh, hopefully it all goes well. Preview of the Friday show the handicapping stuff that will be coming down the pike. We’ll bid you do J K and go right to my conversation with Eddie old check. So now I’d like to welcome to the, in the money [00:40:00] podcast. First, first appearance of what I hope is many on the show.

Last years, Pegasus contest, champion, Eddie Olczyk Eddie. How are you? Nice to be with you. Happy new year. Happy new year to you too. It’s great to have you here. I want to start off by asking about your health. When I interviewed you a year ago, you were undergoing treatment for colon cancer. It was going well.

You had a good prognosis. Where are you now? I’m uh, thrilled to say that I’m, uh, I’m, cancer-free, it’s hard to believe we’re we’re coming up on, uh, on the one year anniversary, uh, um, after going through six months of hell of chemotherapy and having stage three colon cancer, but, you know, where’s the time gone.

I’m glad that’s in her rear view mirror, but I’m feeling okay. I feel great. Uh, I have my big scan coming up in seven worry, which role will be a year since I had my last scan. And that one will, you know, kind of really tell me what’s going on in the end side, but everything else, all the [00:41:00] blood work, all my tests have come back really, really good.

So there’s still a little, you know, still a little apprehension and, you know, still very nervous, but lucky to be on the right side of the side and, uh, incredible support from not only the. Hockey community, uh, but also the horse racing community as well. And, uh, you know, kinda my, they, my purpose in life now moving forward is to, uh, help spread the, spread this story on, uh, on what I went through and hopefully P to be able to either keep one person away of going through what I went through or help somebody deal with it or somebody that’s going to deal with it sadly.

Um, But it’s, uh, it’s been a long battle. I had incredible support from my wife and my family and my friends and, uh, you know, hockey and horse racing. So I’m feeling good and looking forward to bigger and better days ahead. That’s for sure. As far as that educational aspect goes, having seen the demographics on the listenership of the show, we’ve got a lot of people who [00:42:00] are probably in that spot where they’re thinking, ah, should I get the test done?

What are what’s the advice at what point should you say to your doctor? Hey, let’s do this. When I was diagnosed last year with, with colon cancer, the recommended age for colonoscopy was, was 50 the age of 50 since then. And since my battle, they lowered the age to 45, the recommended age to get a colonoscopy and I would encourage anybody.

Look. The test is nothing. It’s nothing. I would rather have you go through that test of flat out. You sit on a toilet for, for a day before you clean yourself out and you go and get the test done. I would rather see you do that than have to go. Through six months of hell of chemotherapy and go through what I went through or anybody else that has to take that, that, uh, that medicine.

So look, there’s nothing to be afraid of. It’s all about raising your hand and saying, you know what, I’m going to go in and I’m going [00:43:00] to get checked out and it’s peace of mind, because like I said, they told me if I would have had a colonoscopy and again, we all know what ifs are and especially in horse racing, but they told me if I would have had a colonoscopy five years earlier, that they would have kept me from.

The chemotherapy in, kept me from having to go through, you know, the worst, the worst year of my life. So again, I would hope that there’s one person out there that says, Hey, you know what, I’m going to go get, I’m going to go get a colonoscopy right now, or I’m going to schedule one. And that’s, you know, that’s, that’s the best advice that I would have because.

Between the two and I’ve had a couple of colonoscopies and obviously going through the, uh, the surgery to remove the tumor, the size of my fist and removing, you know, almost 17 inches of my colon. It’s, it’s way easier to go into your doctor’s office, have that colonoscopy and be home in a couple of hours and having to put yourself through that.

So please take care of yourself, you know, step up and, and, and take matters into your own hand and tell your doctor, look, I need to get checked out and, uh, it’s [00:44:00] peace of mind because I would. The trade-off is, is if you keep putting off people at an off, you never know what’s going to be behind the, behind the curtain.

So, uh, hopefully people will take note of that. And, uh, like I said, if I can keep one person away, keep them away of having to go through what I did, then it was well worth me telling my story to somebody. Well, I second everything you’re saying I I’m 46 and the doctor suggested it probably as part of that initiative.

Of lowering the age you were mentioning and you know, the prep isn’t fun, but the procedure’s really nothing. And the prep it’s one day your life and you watch shows on your iPod and your iPad and you do what you have to do, and then it’s over and it could save your life and, or prevent, uh, the type of difficult situation that you battled through throughout the course of the year.

So let’s hope we get some listeners out there. Following along to that advice, didn’t expect to spend the first five minutes of our chat today on this, but it’s important. So that’s [00:45:00] the thing, man, like, look like in a big picture, like, you know, being in the game of hockey and the national hockey league for pretty much my whole life.

I, you know, I love when coaches are all, you know, all. Coaches and players, uh, in, especially in sports or what have you jockey, whoever it is is, you know, they, you know, they ask how a player’s update is or whatever, how the injuries doing. And he says, well, aren’t we all, day-to-day in the big picture. I mean, it really, the big and the big, big picture aren’t we all day-to-day.

So nothing is guaranteed. Uh, tomorrow is certainly not guaranteed. So, uh, just please, uh, Please take note. And, uh, again, if, if, if one person hears us today and they go and get checked out and they’re clean, then it was well worth our 25 or 30 minutes together today. I love it. I love it. Let me pivot to talk about Pegasus contest coming up this weekend.

Will you be participating, defending your title? I will be, uh, [00:46:00] it will be long distance, like last year, uh, like most HorsePlayers I’d like to do exactly the same as I did last year, where I sat on my couch and. And played the races and, uh, saw a gun runner, uh, when the, uh, when the Pegasus from my couch at home.

But, uh, the reason I was at home last year, obviously, cause I was going through my chemotherapy at that time. So I wasn’t traveling, but this year, uh, hockey calls, I will actually be traveling to San Jose for the NHL all-star game, which will follow. The Pegasus on NBC on Saturday night and prime time. And, uh, I’ll be playing in the contest via express bet, um, from San Jose, uh, not the ideal situation to try to defend my title, no excuses, uh, computer in hand racing form in hand.

And, uh, we’ll, uh, we’ll start from inside to let duplicate, uh, try not to make it as exciting as last year, uh, sitting at the bottom of the field until the last race. But, uh, yeah, I [00:47:00] will be, I will be taking part and look, it’s, it’s an incredible weekend. It’s incredible tournament. So many tremendous handicappers and, uh, full disclosure.

The last, uh, The last three weeks been, uh, I’ve been ice cold. It’s been a battle here the last three weeks to Zig and zag in and not able to come together the last couple of days that I’ve been playing. I kind of feel like, you know, the confidence is coming back. I’m finding some horses that, you know, that I like to think that I usually find so.

Um, I’m hoping that I have a good day here to build up the confidence a little bit before we get to Friday and the two day tournament. But, um, I’m really looking forward to it. And, uh, again, it’s, uh, it’s just, uh, it’s a great battle when you go up against some of the best handicappers that we have around and it’s going to be a lot of fun even though.

Well, I’ll be, I dunno if I can’t be much farther away from, uh, from Gulf stream being in San Jose on a Friday and Saturday, a theater. Uh, I’ll look forward to making the, uh, you know, trying to make the Trek and, uh, try to, uh, defend my title. [00:48:00] Seem to have a tremendous amount of respect for the other players in the contest world.

I’m curious with as busy as you are with your various responsibilities on the broadcast side, how much time have you gotten to spend with your fellow contest players and how much back and forth have you had with them? I played in a few local tournaments in Chicago, just because that’s my home. And it’s.

You know, it’s easy, so to speak, um, you know, to, to, to be in the right place at the right time. It’s really hard for me during the hockey season. Peter, if you know the schedule from the middle of September until the middle of June, um, for me to get a weekend off or to get somewhere, uh, schedule kind of half, but you know, the third day and I have to align for my schedule though, to, to hit it off with maybe a tournament and actually, yeah.

You know, be in a, in a, in a locale with, uh, with other handicappers. So I think over the travels, whether Derby weekend or Preakness or Belmont’s, uh, how’s it, the first running of the, of the [00:49:00] Pegasus a couple of years ago, uh, for my work with NBC. You know, that that’s where you get to be able to, to meet people and talk and, uh, you know, put, put names to faces and faces to names.

And by that it hasn’t materialized maybe as much as I would like, but again, it’s just, it’s just the nature of the beast now, just because of my schedule. But, uh, like I said, I mean, it just. In my travels and people that I communicate with, uh, there are, I mean, there’s so many, I mean, so many sharp handicappers, and I think the one thing to Peter and you know, this being in the game that the handicap, especially in a tournament, like it’s, it’s a weight difference.

So wait, different animal when you’re in a tournament than you are. If you’re sitting on your couch or you’re sitting at the local OTB or you’re actually onsite at a track because it’s the money management aspect of it. And they look in some tournaments, have their own specific rules and regulations and everything else is going on.

So, uh, the mindset, I [00:50:00] think for me, early playing in tournaments was. Trying to build up a bankroll, but not necessarily having the plums on the table mentality to try to win the tournament. Right. Like if you’re gonna, you know, just say you have 16 green and you’re going into the last race and you’re trailing the top spot by 10 or 12 or 15.

Are you, are you content with walking away with what you got and maybe getting a little bit of the prize pool or are you in it? To take a chance and to say, you know what, I’m willing to, I’m willing to lose half of my bank. Well now in order to try to win, you know, that big plan again, that that comes with experience.

And I’ve learned the hard way over the years. And, you know, last year, for example, it was like, look, I was in it to win the whole thing and. You know, you have to hit your requirements and you get to the last race and you’re like, yeah, look, you’re sitting in 96 or 97 spot and you still [00:51:00] have a shot and you say, look, this is what I see.

I see kind of era. I see West coast and I’m sorry. I see gun runner. I see West coast and I see gun up there on a trifecta. That’s all I saw. That’s all I wanted to play. And sure enough, I got lucky and the guys at the top plate, a little safe and, and the stars were aligned. And I, as I said before, Peter. I was five goals down in game seven of the Stanley cup, final and regulation.

Somehow I won the game. So I felt like that’s just the reality of it. So, you know, Off track here, you know, it’s just like, look, there’s so many good players, so many different philosophies, but I think the biggest thing is too is, is, you know, what’s your mindset going into a tournament, regardless if you’re going for a half a billion, or if you’re going for, you know, $500, uh, are you in it too?

You know, are you in it to win the whole thing or, and those, and that comes with experience. So, um, but I’m really looking forward to going up against. The very best that we have. It’s always fun to play in these, in these large [00:52:00] buy-in, uh, qualifier type of, uh, tournaments, because you got, you got lots of options.

You’ve got lots of opportunities and you got to pick your spots and I’m really looking forward to seeing how the field play out. We saw Friday’s card ready, uh, early, a little light. As the day goes on on Friday at Gulf stream looks pretty competitive and then looking forward to seeing what comes up for Saturday.

So, and also too, is that to keep an eye on the weather. Cause I’m hearing, uh, from my sources at NBC and on the weather team, they’re nationally, I’m hearing that there could be a chance of some Bach, some moisture going through there on the weekend. So I have to keep an eye on that. Absolutely lots to unpack in that answer so much good stuff.

As for the specifics of last year, I was pretty happy with the way we laid all that out in the article for a daily racing form I did at the time, I’ll make sure to repost that on the blog site, in the money for folks who want to check that out, you talked about that progression going from a spot in a breeders cup [00:53:00] betting challenge, where you may be.

Could have put yourself in a position to win, and it wasn’t aggressive enough. You corrected that this time around, however, as you mentioned, probably the plan is not to have to wait that long half to leave it that late. Do you see yourself making your big move a little bit earlier this time around? Well look, no, certainly that was not the plan.

I mean, the plan was really, uh, again, my best play of the weekend. Happened to be the big race theater like it happened to be, I told you that last year, like going in, um, you know, I did a radio show in Chicago. I do some a morning radio on ESPN, 1000 with David Caplin, captain company in Chicago. And, you know, w we gave out that, uh, you know, we gave out that exact on the air.

I think it was the day thing was a couple of days before. Um, and also too, we ended up, uh, putting our money together, myself and data capital my partner there. And, uh, we ended up, uh, playing a large, [00:54:00] exact, and ended up giving the money to the Ross MacNeil foundation, a young boy that, uh, lost his life to.

Pediatric cancer. And, uh, we gave them money to his family and to the foundation. And, you know, we gave that, uh, exact out on the air. So for me, that can, I just, that’s what I saw. And again, the plan was is to build up enough there and go look, you know, like, could I have, you know, could I have 25,000 sitting there for the last race?

Now, my mindset was, is like, all I saw was that exactly. And where I ended up being, I was like, well, look, the only way I don’t want to, you know, what am I going to play a $3,000 exact and get to 22 or 23,000. That’s not going to be good enough to win the tournament. So how do I turn in that? You know, six or seven Oh one Exacta into a 40 to one or a 50 to one, and only way that you can do that is with a trifecta.

So my mindset was to buildup as much as I could. And I looked back and I’ve had people ask me this [00:55:00] before Peter was. If you would have been where you wanted on Saturday going into the last race and having 25 grand, what would you have done? And I said, you know what? That’s, that’s a great question. I don’t know what size of an exact I would’ve played.

Um, I certainly would have played the try. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that. You know, I probably would have wheeled to try with gun right. Or West coast and all for, you know, I had plenty of bankroll, you know, for 500 or whatever it would have been. I would have been willing to invest, you know, eight or 9,000 in the trifectas to try to really, you know, really go for it.

But again, it’s, it’s, it’s a different mindset when you’re. Swinging from your heels or, you know, you’re down a bunch of goals late in the game. You got to start taking some chances. So, you know, certainly that wasn’t the mindset, but my best player that weekend was the Pegasus. Um, so it had been really interesting to see how I would have played it.

Uh, if I would’ve gotten to the bank role that I wanted going into the last race, but, uh, things happened for me reason. And somehow some way we were able to find it [00:56:00] off the hook. You need a little bit of help too. You need a little bit of luck, right? Like the guys at the top, I didn’t know what they were playing.

And that’s the beauty of it. Like, you don’t know. So what guys are doing, you know, like sometimes guys will just sit on it sometime guys will. Be aggressive, sometimes guys will hedge. Uh, so that’s what makes it so, so unique and such an incredible experience to be able to go through a tournament like that.

So like, my mindset is probably going to be for this week is a certainly buildup, you know, a realistic, well going in with, uh, with 12. Right. And I think that’s the 12,000 for the buy-in. Uh, you gotta bet all 12, uh, mandatory for five races on Friday, four races on, um, Saturday. And then you have to bet at least $4,000, the two big Pegasus races, the dirt and the turf.

Uh, and then you go from there. So. I would’ve liked to have doubled my bank roll, going into the final couple of races. But, um, look, if, if, if I think that the seventh race on Friday is [00:57:00] the race where I’m going to go ahead and take some chances. Well, then that’s what you gotta do because you, you don’t get many, we’re all HorsePlayers and we, you could like something in every race.

That’s the reality, but you got to have some conviction and you gotta have. The ability to sit there and go look, this is the race that I liked the most, and I can’t sit here and hold back. So look, if I have to go ahead and take a heck of a chance, and then I’ll just have to deal with the cons consequences after regardless of what happens.

There’s an interesting analogy. I think, to end game hockey and end game contests, there’s been some statistical analysis that shows. In hockey very often, coaches don’t necessarily pull the goalie at the optimal time. That human nature you’re conservative. You wait till too long. However, there’s a lot of situations where you take that goalie out early.

You get super aggressive a little bit earlier. Yeah. And it actually increases your chances of [00:58:00] winning might not be dissimilar when it comes to horse racing. When you get down to it to bet your best opinion, the most aggressively, as opposed to that slightly more conservative. Well, I have money. I can spread around here and there on a dollar for dollar basis in terms of ROI.

As HorsePlayers maybe metaphorically, we need to pull that goalie a little bit earlier. Yeah, there is something to that either. It’s a, it’s a great point. And there’s a great analogy. Um, it’s, you know, when you I’ve said this a long time, I’ve been involved in the national hockey league since 1984, I can’t believe I’ve been around that long international hockey league is, is a player as a coach, the broadcaster, but is.

I don’t think you can make the playoffs the first 20 games of the regular season theater, but I think you could miss the playoffs, the first 20 games of the regular season. I think it’s very similar to when you’re talking about, you know, when do you put that extra attacker out there? Like when is it? And then sometimes it’s, you know, sometimes it’s [00:59:00] a gut feeling.

Uh, analytics has become such a big part of all sports and I think horse racing as well. Um, but sometimes, you know, the eye test or, uh, What your heart says or in your gut, or as I said earlier, sometimes you have, you got to put your puns on the table and you got to take a shot and you can’t, you can’t be afraid of what’s going to take place after the fact, you know, it’s almost like, okay, well, I’ll deal with it after the fact.

And. You got to have courage, you got to have conviction. And I think there is something to that. And again, if it’s the seventh race on Friday, or it’s the second race on Saturday, if I think that, or anybody thinks that this is the race where I can cause some separation or, um, I can give myself a little bit bigger of a bank roll to go ahead and start pressing a little bit.

Um, I think there’s something to that and. You know, the philosophy of putting pressure on other players? [01:00:00] Uh, that seems to be again, no, no, uh, data. Uh, I’m just going by the eye test and looking and being a part of a lot of tournaments. Peter, I wouldn’t even want to give a percentage, but I would say a pretty strong number.

I think of people’s philosophies are. Is to get ahead early and force everybody to come chase them down. Right? Because when you look at the leaderboard, seeing, you know, somebody hammering away and they’re starting to pull away, um, forces people to start doing things maybe a little bit outside the comfort zone.

So I would probably say. There are more people that play that way than they do of, you know, sit, sit, sit, sit, and then pumps again, requirments in a tournament. Sure. You’re keeping up to the rules and regulations. Um, but you know, there are those guys that sit there and go look, third race on Friday. I see, uh, you know, I see a one, two exact box and I’m going to go ahead.

You know what? I’m going to play a [01:01:00] $5,000 exactly. Box one, two, and whatever happens happens. And if they hit all of a sudden now, they’ve, you know, they’ve built up their bank roll three times, and now they’re, now they’re sitting in a heck of a spot. So again, When the time comes, you’ve got to know when to do it.

And if you win, if you don’t well, then you gotta deal with the consequences. Often I’ve kept you longer than I said, I was going to you squeeze the sin in a busy week, but I’ve got one more. We’re having a good word, having a good time. We’re good. We’re good. Excellent. I want to ask you about the NHC. We were talking about this.

Off air right before we started. I just thought you had a great excuse for why you’ll be missing the NHC this year. And it’s probably ties back to a memory. You don’t mind reliving a few times. Yeah. Yeah, no, I would have been great to have an opportunity to go to Vegas and play in the NHC. Uh, and let’s not forget that million dollar bonus is still on the line for me since I won the Pegasus last year, that if I would go to the Nat NHC and win, uh, by chance, [01:02:00] uh, I would get that million dollar bonus from the fine folks at Distronic group and, uh, and go straight park, but sometimes priorities.

Are in line and, uh, I will not be able to go to the NAC this year, uh, and for very good reason, as you alluded to Peter, uh, this will be this year, coming up in June will be the 25 year anniversary of the New York Rangers winning the Stanley cup. And I was a very small member. A very small part in member of that team in 1994.

And it’s hard to believe that we’re 25 years almost. So that’s actually, we’re having our reunion weekend in New York city that weekend. So, uh, I will be celebrating with my teammates. Uh, and reminiscing about an incredible run and an incredible year. Um, where is all the time gone? Um, but, uh, that is my, that is my excuse for not accepting invitation to head to the NHC, but, uh, I figure [01:03:00] knock on wood.

Uh, that, uh, that there will be plenty more opportunities to get to the NHC, uh, down the road. Um, but, uh, this is one that I, uh, obviously couldn’t pass up, uh, being with my teammates and celebrating a Stanley cup in a city that was waiting 54 years since 1940 to win a Stanley, covering a Stanley cup back to New York.

And I’m really looking forward to get back there and seen a lot of, uh, older faces. Uh, including yours truly, uh, yeah. And celebrating with, uh, with guys that, uh, we had an incredible run with, uh, in, uh, the horse racing tie there, Peter, as you know, is every player and every member of the organization to a certain extent gets a day or two with the Stanley cup.

And the Stanley cup is the people’s trophy know let’s make no mistake about that. And back in 94, Well, I got a day and a half with the Stanley cup. So on June the 30th of 1994, I had a private party at [01:04:00] the Meadowlands racetrack. Uh, the old metal lands, uh, up into Pegasus room. Oddly enough, uh, had a private party up there with some friends.

And, uh, the people, the metal lamps were, were great. Uh, how handle Bruce Garland? Jimmy Gagliano Chris macrolane. They took incredible care of us was about six or seven of us. And then on July 1st, 1994, uh, we made a deal with Myra and brought the Stanley cup out to Belmont and placed the Stanley cup trophy at the finish line and, and July 1st at Belmont park.

And the people made a donation to the horseman spin Evolent fund. And I think that day on that July 1st, you could probably look this up, but I think they had a crowd of, I think, 15 or 17,000 people that came out on a Friday afternoon. And, uh, of course they see the great horse racing at Beaumont, but I like to think that, uh, the allure of the Stanley cup being there and being able to take a picture with it was incredible.

And then I also got a chance to take a picture with the great Nick Zito. His son, Alex. And of [01:05:00] course go for Jim, the Kentucky Derby winner in 1994. And that’s a picture that was sits probably in my office at home. And, uh, go for Jen, take a, uh, you know, taking the taste out of the Stanley cup in his stuff, Belmont park.

And, uh, it was, uh, just a great, a great 36 hours of being able to celebrate. No, the Stanley cup with, uh, with people in horse racing. And it’s hard to believe where that time has gone, but a real quick story on that theater is that on June 17th, we had our, we had our Stanley cup parade. Uh, going through Manhattan and the, uh, the, the Canyon of champions and wall street and the millions of people that came out and helped celebrate the Stanley cup in New York.

And again, ranger fans have waited 54 years for that. So it was just absolutely incredible. But June 17, 1994. Um, well I had two, my two sons were born, my oldest son, Eddie. Um, who’s an assistant hockey coach right now, a good Michi [01:06:00] state for men’s college hockey and my son, Tommy. Who’s a pro hockey player over in, uh, in Paris right now, but they were on the float with my wife and I, um, celebrating the Stanley cup party and the Stanley cup parade.

And halfway through the parade, you know, I got my Jersey on shorts. It’s pretty warm that day. My son kind of starts tucking on my shorts, going through the parade route and is my oldest son, Eddie. I said, Eddie white. He goes, dad. Thanks a lot for inviting all these people to my birthday party, because that was his birthday, June 17th, 19.

He was born in 89, but that day was his birthday. So he thought that that parade was for him. You’re going to be disappointed the rest of your life. I’ve told this many people. So, uh, you know, that’s one thing I’ll always, uh, always remember about that parade. I mean, it was just a surreal day of celebrating with new Yorkers and ranger fans, but that, to have that happened on his birthday, something I’ll never forget.

So a long winded. Yeah. I’ll miss the tournament. But, uh, trust me, I’ll be having a [01:07:00] lot of fun and, uh, trust me, they won’t be, they’ll be some time there when I’m sitting in my hotel room and I got a couple of hours at a computer or I’ll be out and I’ll be watching and, uh, I’ll be playing on my express bet.

And I’m sure theater that I’ll probably get a $30 horse and $240. Exactly. And I’ll probably be gone. You know, what if I would have had that in her, in the tournament where I do, if I got a $30 winner, but, uh, you know, what better days ahead, but, uh, I think I got a pretty good excuse for not participating in the NHC this year.

I would say so that 94 Stanley cups such a big deal. I’ve been a New York sports fan since I was born full disclosure. Islanders guy grew up in port Washington, right near the Colosseum, the right age to enjoy the four cups in a row. So I can’t tell him to be a ranger failed. That was a hell of a run. By the way, I played against some of those teams feeder.

I played against those Brian Traci and Mike. Well, I see Danny Todd van Clark Gillies, Billy Smith, uh, [01:08:00] Kenny Morrel. I mean, they had some, that was a pretty salty run that they had there, of course, with the late bill Torrey and the great Al Arbor, uh, run into bench. Uh, you, you, you are blessed. You are blessed to see that run because that was one hell of a franchise.

It still is. That was a heck of a run for a hell of a franchise for a long, for a long stretch. But I remember the significance to the city and my ranger fan friends of what you guys accomplished in 94. Just unbelievable, incredible that it was that long ago. And we’ll be curious to hear some stories coming out of that.

And we’ll hope to have you back on the show soon. I’m going to let you get on with your day, but I just want to thank you one more time for taking time out and joining us here. Peter. Thank you so much. It’s always great to catch up and again, thank you for, uh, for your support. Especially last year when I was going through my battle.

And then I was lucky enough to be able to, to win the, uh, to win the Pegasus, the inaugural Pegasus for world cup betting [01:09:00] challenge. And you know, again, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say again to the horse racing community out there to so many people. Uh, reached out, uh, when I was going through my battle and, uh, be forever a forever grateful, um, moving forward.

And, uh, I’m actually in the process of, uh, finishing up a book that, uh, that I’m writing and that’ll be coming out, hopefully at the end of it. End of the year. And, uh, there’s some great stories in there about horse racing and the people in the game. And, uh, I feel very lucky to be a very small part, whether it’s the handicapping part of it or the owning part of it, or, uh, my main gig on NBC is being one of the handicappers in analysis.

Uh, you know, analysis for horses, the great NBC coverage. So, uh, always great to catching up with you and, uh, best of luck to anybody that’s out there. That’s playing in the tournament this weekend. And, uh, hopefully we can chat about me, uh, hopefully, uh, Being able to do what I did last year, but maybe in not such [01:10:00] great theater of waiting until the last five minutes of the Stanley cup final to get it done, maybe a nice front running score this time around.

That would be nice. It’d be a little, it might be awhile. You know what? Thinking about it. It might be a little bit tougher on the ticker if you’re doing that, but, uh, we’ll, uh, we’ll play the hand that is dealt and I promise everybody that’s, uh, Uh, I’ll be playing with the plums on the table mentality and, uh, you know, win or lose.

Uh, I’m really looking forward to, uh, going up against some of the very best handicappers yeah. Plums on the table. I love it. We’re going to have you back soon. Maybe even next week. And we will also definitely have you back to promote the book. We’ll talk more about that off air. We’d love to help, but get all the information to our listeners as soon as that’s available for sale.

And we’d love to have you back for that as well. Thank you again for your time today. My friend. You got it. All right. That just about does it for this edition of the, in the money players podcast. Officially. This is the [01:11:00] Tuesday, January 22nd show, but we’re actually recording on January 21st Martin Luther King Jr’s birthday observed, and there was just an MLK quote.

That somehow alluded me for a good part of my life, but I heard it today on the yoga mat, where else? And I just thought I’d share as part of our closing out of the show. Everybody can be great because everybody can serve. You don’t have to have a college degree to serve. You don’t have to make your subject and your verb agree to serve.

You don’t have to know about. Plato and Aristotle to serve. You don’t have to know Einstein’s theory of relativity to serve. You don’t have to know the second theory of thermodynamics in physics to serve. You only need a heart full of grace, a soul generated by love. And with that. I’ll thank Eddie old check I’ll.

Thank Jonathan kitchen. I’ll thank DJ. [01:12:00] Unstable. Most of all, I want to thank all of you, the listeners, especially those of you who’ve stepped up to help out during this transitional period for the show. You know who you are and your efforts are greatly appreciated. Specific shout outs to come. As we travel on down the line, that’s it for now.

We will be back on Friday. I’m Peter Thomas foreign Italian. May you win all your photos?


 your listening to [01:13:00] the, in the money players podcast.

Hello, welcome to the, in the money players podcast. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in the Brooklyn bunker. Very cold in Brooklyn today. Snowing even on my little run outside, it is show number eight. It is Friday, January 18th, 2019. And. Joined by a very special guest we’ll get to in a minute, but also by the usual cohost of this radio program, he is the people’s champion.

He is sitting on the side of a road, I think somewhere in the planet, Texas, at this point, Jonathan kitchen, what’s up JK I’m outside of a hotel. I don’t even know what it’s called Wyndham Wingate by Wyndham. I was going to, to, uh, one of my favorite moves is a sneak into business centers and record my various media obligations.

When, when, when, uh, people don’t know where you’re at, you just get into like a [01:14:00] business center and you just act like you’re staying at the hotel. And, uh, but this one was like kind of weird. It was tucked in behind. It just felt like, uh, Keelan green coat was gonna come up behind me at any moment and tell me I had to leave.

So I panicked and. Went out to the car. That’s pretty funny. The King of all media, you’ve been described by our friend, Mike Maloney, with your various media appearances, as you say, and now I’d like to welcome to the pod. I don’t think he was ever an official guest on the other old podcast. Very happy to have him among the first guests on this one, you know, for a lot of different reasons.

He’s a rock star. On Twitter. We’ll talk about that. He is the creator of the eponymous beamy awards. He’s also the host of the bet America radio network. That’s barn podcast, Jason beam. Welcome to the show. It’s it’s great to be with you guys. And I got to say. Uh, I have done what Jonathan’s done. I’ve totally done the business center move [01:15:00] and I have I’ve done.

The beauty of podcast is you can kind of do it everywhere, right. And whenever you want, and I have a mobile mic set up and I remember interviewing Gabby, got debt from the. The bank parking, lot of the Mount Shasta burger King. So, so, so, so I know what Jonathan’s going through right now. I’ve been there back in the day.

I was known on occasion when it was all at alternate side of the street parking day, here in Brooklyn to sit in the key food parking lot. But I think you’ve got me beat. No, I mean, yeah. I, I, my two best ones where I did, I interviewed Gabby at the burger King in a snowstorm and then. Steve asked and his people, I had made a request to interview them and they said, we don’t know when.

And so I said, okay, we’ll just, you know, so as long as I got 10 minutes notice, so she messages me, Hey, call Steve and 10 minutes. And I’m like 30 minutes from my house. It was 90 degrees outside and I had all my stuff and I was right next to like a really busy road. So I had to close all the windows. [01:16:00] And do the interview and it hadn’t been 120 degrees in the car.

And if you, if you listen, while Steve is doing. Well, he’s talking about snapper Sinclair winning at lucky down, you can hear me grabbing ice from my cup and pouring it on my neck. Phenomenal. Where do you think is the weirdest place JK you’ve ever done the show from Ben? For sure. I mean bed bed is like probably 45% of the time.

I’ve done that before. No, not that many times, but I’ve done bed before I’ve done Vegas hotel. Uh, I’m trying to think the craziest place I’ve done it. We tried to do it once from poolside in Mexico. I tried that that didn’t work. We had to cancel that show. Uh, I’m going with the phone booth at the Langham for me, that that’s my most ridiculous place.

Jason, you were telling a story right? As we went on air a, uh, a Kentucky Derby, legendary announcer tale. Why don’t you pick that one up for the listeners? [01:17:00] Well, we were talking about the, uh, the fairgrounds races coming up Saturday. And you were saying, Oh, what race number was it? Makes sure I got the right race number.

Uh, the great loop pride boss, who was the voice of Churchill from I think, 2000 to 2008 when he passed away. Um, He used to tell me, he goes, he goes, the last thing I do, he goes the minute I see number 19, go in the gate. And I see number 20 is coming up. He goes, I always looked down on my program just to make sure I got the right rates going on.

And it always just kind of made me laugh because I mean, you know, how, how could you not have the right race at that point? But he, the other funny thing, Luke used to have the Churchill booths at that new. Well, since they did the addition, uh, there it’s, uh, just a sheet of glass, like from head to toe. And Luke used to have the name of the starter, uh, carved into the glass and, um, I’ve totally forgotten the guy.

I remember one of them was Roger Nagel and, uh, and they changed to another, uh, another starter. He had to scratch that out in the glass [01:18:00] and, and wrote him. He used to tell me, he goes, I don’t like the new starter as much. And I said, why is he doing a bad job? He goes, no, it was just so fun to always go rod your navel with us.

It’s great. Um, uh, I’ve been, been lucky enough to, to hang out in some announcers booths. Um, and right before they call a race, I’m always amazed by like how distracted they can be prior and still do their job. Are you one of those guys that when you’re calling, is it quiet in there for the first 15 minutes?

Or can you kind of memorize and, and kind of communicate with your, with your guests or friends while you’re doing it? It kind of depends, uh, part of it. Yeah. It depends on where the meet you are. Like if you’re at Portland Meadows and it’s a six month meet and it’s the last month of the meat and you’ve called these horses seven times already this season, I mean, I can memorize them for seconds cause you just, you know, those horses, you know, those silks and, uh, and you know, what’s going on.

Like when I was at Gulf stream West a couple, uh, about two months ago, filling in and. Gulf stream. I mean, they [01:19:00] throw 11 and 12 force fields at you. Like, I mean, you’re just getting them fired at you every second. And I didn’t know those horses or those silks at all. And so, I mean, that was a. You know, I used every ounce of those 25 minutes I had plus the seven minutes of drag.

I actually, you know, it was funny. I told somebody, I said, I I’ll be honest with you that post time drag. It goes way faster. When you’re sitting there memorizing 12 horses on the graph. That’s horrific. I wanted to ask you about your recent experience behind the mic. How did you enjoy it? What did that feel like?

It was, it was great. It was, I, uh, I hadn’t called a race since I think my last race I called was March of 2015, uh, at Louisiana downs. And so I, um, I kind of had thought I was done with that portion of my life. Uh, and so when Peter called me about it, I was. Yeah, I was really excited and I was like, yeah, that’d be awesome, man.

Cause [01:20:00] I, you know, I had applied for future. My, my deal with bed America has always been that if I wanted to go call races, I could do the show in addition to it and we’d figure it all out. And, uh, and I had applied for a few other ones and really just never got to sniff. And I think the, you know, my, I mean, things kind of fell apart at Louisiana downs for me personally.

And so I think that, you know, my reputation maybe was like, you know, maybe this guy is not the most reliable dude. Uh, and so I just, I mean, I, wasn’t getting a sniff on jobs where I. Kind of thought I should have been a contender for him. Uh, so I really had kind of given up on that and Pete reached out and Pete, he he’s such a sweet guy and he told me, he goes, yes, I really, when I was thinking of who would fill in, he goes, I just thought, who would appreciate this the most?

And he goes, I really thought you would. And I said, you’re right. And, uh, and it was great. Like the first day I went there and, uh, You know, I was really nervous. The first race, you know, you could certainly hear my voice. I was nervous. And then I settled in and it, it kind kinda got to be like, it was like, it used to be, and it was really fun.

And you know, when I finished the day, I was really emotional. I, I actually, I called my mom and I was, I broke down crying. I was just, I was [01:21:00] so happy that I. Had kind of overcome what was a little bit of a fear because of the way things ended at Louisiana downs. And, uh, and it was just really fun. And so those whole two weeks were, it was really a blast.

It was a great challenge because I don’t know if you guys have seen the setup they have there, they knocked over the call to grandstand. It’s gone. And so they have three construction trailers stacked on top of each other. And that’s where the stewards, the placing judges, the camera guy. So on top, it’s just me and the camera guy.

You’re only about 15 feet in the air, 20 feet in the air and you’re in it. So you’re at a terrible low angle. The hedges have kind of grown up over the rail. So on both turns, you can’t see the saddle towels. And I know a lot of announcers are like, Oh, you’re never looking at the side of have BS.

If you got another identifier that you can use. You use it. So I Al I always get annoyed when guys I’ve never looked at fat. Yeah, you do. And so what cause when, you know, when they, and [01:22:00] when they were on the turn, if they’re stacked two or three across, you just, you’re so low that you can’t see those outs at horses.

So it was a, it was a really, really great challenge, but it was, it was really rewarding thing. And I, I just, I had never been to Florida, so it was fun to see a new part of the country and got to see the Pegasus statue and, uh, and all that kind of fun stuff. I was listening to, uh, your, your show earlier this week with, with, uh, with the champ, Michael  friend of our podcast as well.

You, uh, you’re back in the booth this weekend, right? Where at. Yeah, I’m going to, uh, century downs in the Calgary. I’m actually good friends with the, some of the guys that run that operation cause they were based in, uh, at Hastings and Hastings is where I live in Seattle and Hastings was real close. So I’ve known those guys over the years.

They, uh, they needed someone to fill in for it for a day. And I said, you know what I said, I’m not that far away. I’ll, I’ll go up to, uh, to Calgary. So I’m going to go there. And then they have a new track that they’re actually opening in, uh, in April. So I’m going to go check out that in Edmonton called century mile, and it’s replacing the old North lands [01:23:00] park, uh, which I think the facility there just kinda gotten outdated and, uh, They, uh, they wanted to build a new one.

So there’ll be a, a fun trip. Cause I mean, you know, taking a vacation to Alberta January is what a lot of people do and I’ve called one hardest race of my life and it was a Pompano park. And so it’ll be kind of fun to try something new. I mean, I really, I don’t know a lot about harness. So I told them, I said, you’re going to get some, some pretty bare bones, race calls, but uh, It’ll be fun, challenging yourself personally, and professionally leads to a more enriching experience of life.

I like it a lot. I wasn’t planning on asking about this, but I, I, I want to now I’m a person who certainly of the mind that. When you have personal issues, whether they have to do with depression or anxiety, it’s really no different in my mind than somebody who gets sick, uh, with, uh, with a physical ailment.

You, you overcome it, you move on. There’s no reason to judge somebody for having [01:24:00] had any type of issue like that in the past. I was just curious if you have any advice. For people out there in the world who may have gone through something similar to what happened to you, that incident you referred to back at Louisiana downs in terms of your ability to turn the page and move on with your life.

How did you do that? And what kind of place are you in emotionally? Now? That was a, the turning the page was actually one of the really tougher parts. Even the Louisiana downs thing. It w it was kind of half struggling with mental health, half. Uh, my dream job at Emerald bounds opened up and they wanted me to apply.

And so I went, I went back and applied and interviewed and then didn’t get it inside. I just was like, I just don’t want to go back to Louisiana. And so it was a lot of different reasons, but I had struggled with the anxiety and depression stuff for a long time. I mean, even at Portland Meadows, there was one year Portland.

I think it was 2013. Uh, I had gotten so agoraphobic, like I wasn’t leaving my apartment other than to. Get food and go to work. And like, [01:25:00] just going up to the booth was giving me panic attacks. And so they actually, they set up a situation where I could be in my office downstairs, which was like right next to my car.

And I just called the races off the TV for like half the season. And if you, uh, if you listen to those calls, you really can’t tell. That there’s anything different, except for there was one race where the camera man, uh, the camera slipped out off of the little wheel and they’re going to, they’re going around the turn.

And the camera goes from, you know, from on the, uh, Covering the race to like, literally just looking straight down at the ground for five seconds. I, I we’d, we talked about Lou cry boss. I use it old Luke, right. Boss trick. Cause it was on the turn. And so I went winding around the fire and you, you, you learn how to stall sometimes and that, but it was, uh, the anxiety stuff.

I, it was, it was such a. It was just debilitating in a lot of ways. And what I found was that my life was [01:26:00] just getting smaller and smaller because I was avoiding more and more things that I was nervous about. And then, you know, you start finding a lot of shame because of how you’re living and then you just don’t want to be seen anymore.

And I just really, I mean, my first year or so here at bet, America was, it was this relief that I could work from home, but in a way, it kind of enabled me to kind of keep up. Avoiding seeing people. And, uh, and it just, uh, it just kinda kept getting worse and worse and worse. And I didn’t really have a, a moment where I was like, I need to turn this around.

I honestly just started walking more and doing more stuff. And as I got my fitness back up and I kind of just started pre I mean, cause exposure therapists, the only way you get over. Anxiety stuff, right. Or, uh, agoraphobia stuff. And so I just started going and doing more things. And as I did more things, it became easier to do more things.

And I kind of started getting that spirit to want to go to do more things. And so as far as, [01:27:00] you know, turning the page. It took me a while to accept that because I really viewed myself just as a total failure, because I think that I had great potential as a race caller, and I was kind of working my way up the ladder as you do.

And, um, and it just kind of all blew up. And so for a long time, I was like, you know, well, I just, I blew my skills and my opportunity, and now it’s all over. And as you said, you come to find out that if you, if you know, people know that I never had any. Ill intentions are, you know, I was like, none of my employers would ever, I don’t know, I’ve never been fired from a job and they’ve all told me, you know, they, they all liked me as a, as an employee.

And so I, I think people understand it took me a while to understand that though. Cause I just, I had just so much shame about it and um, You know, as you, as you work through and you know, the last year or two, I’ve kind of found myself doing better and being in a, in a better place. And so it’s, it’s strange to kind of look back at that time because sometimes like, you know, alcoholics anonymous or gamblers anonymous, it’s sometimes good to keep the bad [01:28:00] memories fresh.

Just to remember why you want to keep working to not go back there. At what point, uh, in your career in racing, did you come up with a brilliant idea of. Of the BME awards, which is a, an award show that you, that you started. And tell us a little bit about what the awards is and where in your career you kind of got the idea and the history behind I was, um, the first one was December of 2014 and, uh, I didn’t promote it.

I didn’t, I mean, it was not going to be a, you know, a big thing. It was literally like a Friday night. I thought it would be funny too. Do like Twitter awards. And obviously all my friends are in racing, so they were all kind of racing related and it was like, you know, best fight. And it was, uh, you know, just like I remember the first year, one of the winners was the, uh, like best moment of the year.

And the winner was anytime, a good horse beats, a weak field off a layoff and people freak out. That was the [01:29:00] Normandy invasion. Was that the horses name? There was a horse called Normandy invasion. Chad Brown ran in the Derby. Yeah. Yeah. I think he was what kind of spun that cause he had come back and he had like one to five horse allowance at Gulf stream by 10 and people just thought, well, here’s the second coming of man award.

It was like, Nope. You know, but, but people do that. Like they, these horses, they come back off. A layoff and they beat up on a crappy field. Got a bear. Did it remember when he went live earlier this year, he beat up on a bunch of tin cans and everybody’s like, Oh, he’s going to be a little pig as this world cup.

Oh, come on. He’s going to run down accelerate. So, uh, which, by the way, he almost of course did last. But, uh, no, so it was just a lot of like dumb stuff like that. And, and it really people liked it and then they thought it was funny. And so the next year I kind of did it up a little bit more and we started adding in the red carpet and, and all that kind of stuff.

And, uh, I mean, we got sponsors this year, a little red feather racing is our title sponsor now. [01:30:00] Uh, and so, so that’s kind of fun and. Yeah. I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s really just meant to be kind of a fun night where we can all goof around and, uh, I very much try to make sure there’s very, very little malice.

There’s a little poking of the bears once in a while, but, uh, I really don’t, you know, I don’t try to crap on anybody. And the funny thing about the first year was, uh, we talked about Louisiana downs. I had accepted the job at Louisiana downs about a week before the beanies and I had already planned them a little bit, but, um, I remember thinking, I go, God, should I even do this?

These guys just hired me. It’s, you know, the Caesars corporate track. Maybe I shouldn’t be out here posting Photoshops of, you know, Bob Baffert and then, and then going over there. And so I almost did do them. And then luckily, and funny enough, there’ll be me awards and stuck and Louisiana downs. Pretty funny.

This is the fifth annual beamy awards. It’s coming up this weekend. Um, Oh, it’s tonight. Let’s give us, [01:31:00] give us the lowdown on where folks who want to follow along. What’s the best way to do it. Uh, Penelope Miller, who you guys probably know from America’s best racing. She, one time she, one time told me her method of watching the beanies and I thought it was brilliant.

She, she opens up three tabs. She has my, my account on one of the tabs. She has the hashtag beamy awards on one of the tabs. And then she has her own feed on one of the tabs. And she told me, she goes, cause that’s how I do it every year. And I go, that makes perfect sense. But my, my Twitter account, that BB awards, and like I said, it’s all on Twitter.

There’s a couple of videos. We do kind of a mock in memoriam thing and, uh, and a good night thing. But yeah, if you just go to my Twitter at BME awards and that you can follow along and I, I always tell people I have no. If you want to just follow it tonight and unfollow. I won’t, I won’t message. You would be like, Hey, what’s with you unfollow man.

Like I totally get it. And for those now, because of when this podcast comes up, when some people listen, they might be tuning in after the awards have happened, best way to catch the show. [01:32:00] After the fact, would you think it’s just going through your feed or is there something, well, I think going through my feet and then just, I tell everybody anything you’re responding and, uh, you know, Hashtag beamy awards.

And that way people can just click the hashtag. And as I say, watch on demand and, and also the, you know, like we’ve trended nationally, the last three years cracks me up, you know, and a big part of that is cause everybody hashtags, all the responses and stuff. So it just, the first year, I’ll never forget what it trended.

It was the day Rudy Giuliani announced he was either, I can’t use either running for president or dropped out of running for president, but there was just something so hilarious to me that the trends were Rudy Giuliani and. Terrific. What’s the award, uh, the category that’s got the most, the most contentious this year, which, which ones should we, uh, tune in for?

It’s going to be the most exciting to see. So yeah, so the, the, the categories, I get a lot of grief from people about this. So I never there’s no nominees. I mean, I always remind, like, cause I’d get people on Twitter. Like, how do I want to be me? Or [01:33:00] I couldn’t believe they said there is no meritocracy. So winning this, like literally.

All I want to do is make it a funny night. And so anything I think is funny that I can make into a funny award, uh, is. Is what I’m going to use. And so there’s, there’s very rarely, you know, kind of set categories and, uh, and stuff like that. Well, let me pull up my little list here because I, I mean, I don’t tell anybody any of the categories, uh, the, the best photo to Photoshop is when we have done the last few years and that one always seems to get a kick out of people.

Cause it’s, you know, it just takes a photo of that. Somehow came and put her, and then we put the person in kind of weird situations based on how the photo looks. And so, uh, I think that one will be really, really good this year. And one of my other favorites is best Twitter hiatus because inevitably 20 times a year, at least probably more than that, I will see people say, I am so done with Twitter.

I’m not going to take the day off taking the week off. I’m never coming back. And then an hour later or they’re posted about something. And [01:34:00] I remember my, one of my favorite ones was. A guy named John , who’s a, an aspiring race caller and works in the, in Maryland. He had, well, he won the award and he had said, he goes, he goes, I got to get off social media for a while.

It stressed me out that it did the, and then like two hours later, he goes, Hey, how about that top pick, finish over it, Dan, on a massage cut off. So I just, it was, it was the most tout thing of all time, right? Because if you’re a towel, like you have to brag about it. Like you can’t just, you know, you can’t just lift that four to one winner you gave out, sit there, uh, flood around in the ether.

You got, you got to give out there. So I thought. I just, that always kills me when guys are like, I am done with it. And I always say Twitter is like the hotel, California. You can check out, but you can’t leave great stuff. The leopard can’t change its spots and all that. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about your background.

How did you get into racing in the first place? My, uh, my dad was a gambler and, uh, we, I grew [01:35:00] up about three years, miles from old long acres racetrack, which was this beautiful track here in suburban Seattle. And I always tell people whenever I get a chance, there’s a great movie that’s available for free on the Seattle channel called miracle strip.

And if you just Google miracle strip Longacres. Uh, you’ll be, you can watch it for free. It’s like an hour and a half, and it’s this great documentary of an amazing track. That was from 1933 to 1992. And so me and my dad would go out there. He’d take me out there every weekend. My mom would give me 20 bucks.

It’s like a bet, two bucks, each race. And my dad would take the 20 and tea and he’d go, I’ll make your bets for you. And I came to find out because I hit that exactly one time with captain condo over grand stand game. I still remember the horses and it paid like 50 bucks. And so I asked dad for the money and he goes, I’ll get it to you Wednesday.

So I realized that he was the, he was booking my accident. But, uh, yeah, I, I just, I grew up as a again and I wanted to be a jockey and [01:36:00] my dad was, you know, six foot two, and my mom was five 10. So you can, you can guess how that turned out. I, I, uh, real quick aside story, I had, uh, Gary Bula, Jay was the top jockey there when I was a kid and he was my favorite jockey and I had a stuffed jockey Teddy bear that I named Gary bear lingerie.

And, uh, and so one time I was getting Gary’s autograph and I was nine years old. Yeah, maybe 10 years old. It was like 99. And, uh, I, I told him I he’s autograph and Gary bear lawn, Jay. And I told him, I said, you know, I want to be a jockey to Mr. Bula and Jay and I was about two inches shorter than him. And he looks over at my dad was six two, and he goes, well, good luck.

That was sent me on my way. But no, I just, I, I. I loved the sport. I love the gambling part of it. And, uh, I kinda got away with it w or away from it when lawmakers closed, because there was a four year period here before Emerald downs got open, uh, where there was no local racing. And I was, you know, a teenager then.

So I was playing baseball and, uh, and then when my dad got sick, he had a [01:37:00] skin cancer. The only thing he kind of wanted to do was other than his treatments was go out to the, to the Emerald. And so I started going out with him again. Uh, for most of the summer of Oh one and he passed away that summer and I kind of just kept going and, uh, eventually got a job, uh, in, uh, at Emerald downs in, in Oh four as a media assistant.

So I was writing like turf notes and press releases and got to meet Robert Geller and, uh, started practicing announcing, and then off I went. Very cool. Awesome. Awesome. To hear that a, the dad was involved. My dad probably tried to do the same thing to me except. He, uh, he, he would give me the money and then take it back.

So, um, yeah, I was reading your, your, your piece. You wrote about poker on your, on your blog. And one of the things that really stuck, one of the things that really stuck out to me and that I’m sure this wasn’t even the most important thing, but your mom ran a poker room and you worked a surveillance. Tell us a little bit about that.

It sounds like an unbelievable story. Yeah, no, my, uh, my mom was a, [01:38:00] she, her, her, her career was kind of a great story. She started, uh, there was a poker room here called diamond Lil’s and it was about two miles from old monikers. And so it was. You know, there was a huge crossover of poker and horse players in the eighties and nineties.

And she was a waitress there at, at diamond Lil’s and eventually work your way into accounting. And then it worked her way into being a general manager. And then she left for a couple of years and their business was suffering. And so the guy, a guy named Fred. Uh, he asked her to, uh, to come back and work for her and, you know, after the race stuff.

And she said, well, I want to be part owner. And so she bought in for 10% and then Fred passed away a few years later. And so she bought the rest of it. And so she literally went from waitress to owner over the course of about 10 years. And, uh, and she ran it for 20 years and, uh, before she sold it a couple of years ago, but yeah, it was.

It was great because, you know, having a business owned by a family member, you know, I, when I was in college, I could kind of come and go and she would [01:39:00] find me a few hours every week to do stuff. And, uh, for a couple summers, I did surveillance at the poker room and, you know, it’s literally like you see in Vegas, like there’s 30 TVs in front of you and you, you got your little joystick where you can zoom in on stuff.

And, um, It was, uh, it was great as far as learning poker, because I could sit and watch the poker hands and zoom in. And this was 2000, 2001, 2002. So this is right when that boom is happening, you know, the moneymaker and all that stuff. And so, uh, it was, it was really a great. It was, I mean, it was an amazing summer job and, you know, and it kind of gets, it would get boring if you didn’t kind of get the point because otherwise you just sit in there and, uh, and watch your hands.

And there’s a lot of just procedural stuff doing surveillance. Like you gotta change the tapes every four hours and, uh, you gotta do, you know, you gotta follow around the. Buddy when they’re pulling all the cash out of the tables and all that kind of stuff. But other than that, I mean, there’s just a lot of downtime keeping an eye on the room.

And so, uh, and I mean, you know, and there would be crazy stuff too. I mean, there [01:40:00] was some fights and, uh, there was one time a guy, a guy, one guy passed away at the table and he, but it’s kind of a crazy, great story. I mean, it was great of stories. The guy dying could be, he, uh, he was like 96. He was a really older guy and he won a pot.

And he dragged the pot in and he was stacking his chips and he just finished stacking the chips. And like four minutes later, he kind of nodded off there and he just passed away. It was crazy. Well, if you’re gonna go out, I guess you want to go out with the big stack of chips in front of you. Right? So, and the reason I say it was a great story.

It was cause his daughter played there a lot too. And. I talked with her about it. And she was telling me, she goes, she goes, you know, he knew he was kind of sick and, and this and that. And she goes, she goes, she goes, I thought it was the perfect way for him to go. And so, uh, you know, I, I, cause I, you know, like I said, it’s not, it’s not a great thing to got that, but, you know, she knew he had a wonderful long life and, and, and he, and he died too, and what he liked and, and he, and he won his last bet.

[01:41:00] That’s a great point. I mean, what do you think JK, if you got to check out at the track, don’t you want to do it with the winning pick six ticket in your pocket? Yeah, you can give me, give me the winning show. Bet. If I’m, if I’m going to go, I just got to go out a winner. Jason, I want to talk a little bit more about the poker piece.

We had a very popular interview earlier in the week with Dave  the new NHC tour champion. And understandably, he was a little cagey is too strong, but not particularly forthcoming when it comes to. The strategies he’s learned in the poker world that he has used effectively in the world of horse racing tournaments.

But the one hint that he did give to folks looking to learn from what he’s done this year on the tour, was to send people towards that blog. What do you think people can pick up about horse racing contests from the poker world? [01:42:00] Well, first of all, shout out Maven, thanks for the plug. Uh, well, th the, the piece that I wrote, it kind of germinated from, there was some friends who were talking about a sequence and somebody just said, Oh, good ticket.

And then another guy came in and said, it’s kind of a terrible ticket. And then they kind of went off and, uh, and started going at each other. And I was, I was just thinking about, cause in poker, I’ve noticed that there is a lot more discussion about. Dissecting betting decisions. And, uh, I gave a bunch of examples on the blog.

I mean, there’s YouTube videos, there’s forums, there’s logs, there’s, uh, there’s Facebook pages. Like there’s this one called the hand history lounge, where you literally joined this Facebook group and every night guys just go post hands and they, and they discuss, you know, did I play this right? How could I play it different?

How could I baby got more money? And they just kind of sit and constantly talk about it. We need more. What I realized was. Yeah. Well, and what I realized was [01:43:00] that there’s not a lot of that public discourse in racing. I do think some groups of friends talk about that. I think 95% of our conversations are about the handicapping piece, which is obviously an important part of the puzzle.

Uh, but I think there’s very little talked about the, uh, the bedding piece and it was interesting cause I, I. After I wrote it, I got a message from a guy who told me that he had talked to Jonathan of all people. Uh, at some point and Jonathan had said, he goes, it boggles my mind that people will talk and study for four and five hours, how to handicap the race and then put their beds together in two minutes.

And I thought it was a great point, but you have to think, but, but also made me realize we just don’t talk about it a lot. But the other thing I kind of realized is that. You know, most people when they post their ticket on Twitter, they just want you to follow along and root for them. And. I don’t think Twitter is actually the best space to kind of do that, those surgical maneuvers on people’s tickets.

I feel like there’s, there’s gotta be some kind of a, a [01:44:00] website or chat room or, or group, you know, or whatever, where you can it out of willingly go to, to get help with that stuff. Because I just don’t think it comes across right on Twitter. Uh, you know, just kind of cold going to, you know, Hey, I think you did this wrong and people get really defensive about it.

And it just seems in poker. People are a little more open to, to learning and just kind of seeking out that information. But then again, in racing, I just think it’s, it’s tougher to have those conversations also because in poker, you know, those odds are fixed. I mean, you know, you have an eight out of 45 chance to hit your flush and in racing, you know, you’re kind of.

Creating your own ops because you know, you’re, you’re making your value line and what have you. But, you know, there is, there used to be a ton of crossover between poker and racing. And w like I said, when I go into my mom’s poker room, growing up half the guys table just been at the track and half the guys table had the form with them while they’re playing poker.

And by the time I started working at the poker rooms, there [01:45:00] was like two or three guys in the whole room that were horse players. And now I go there and there’s, there’s none. And so, uh, The just the, and I don’t think that is like one of those things, like, you know, racing doesn’t do this. I just think that poker has kind of got, they’ve just kind of separated themselves a little bit.

I think in. And who approaches them where it used to be kind of, you know, and obviously they were kind of the only two games in town for a long time as well. But, uh, I don’t know. I feel like there should be more because like I said, growing up there was, there was 40 mavens. There was not, not his ability, but guys who were very proficient at poker and the horses.

And now I just, uh, I just don’t know a lot of those people. And I mean, poker players should be right to just play racing. And obviously part of the reason they’re not is because the juice is so high. It’s really, really tough. Yeah. Yeah. It’s such a tough game to not only beat, but you know, I said in the, in the blog piece, there’s more pro.

Poker players in a one mile radius around the commerce casino in LA or around the Bellagio Vegas, then [01:46:00] there are in the whole country of horse players. I mean, really, if you think about how many guys make their living from gambling, I mean, it is not on the horses. It is not. And I don’t even mean, you know, guys that are making two, 300,000 guys that are grinding out 40 or 50 grand.

There is not many of them. And because it’s just really, really difficult to do. And the guys I know that do it are the guys that are. You know, churning for the rebates. And so, you know, their whole goal a lot of times is just to break even, or not lose that much. And then the rebates put them over the top.

It’s really a challenge. I love the idea of having a place online. You’re still figuring out what the hole in the money, a brand media presence, et cetera, is going to be. I love the vision of. Uh, the blog site in the money becoming a place where people can come to talk about that stuff in a friendly, more extended way with Twitter, you got a few problems, right?

You’ve got the limited character , but you’ve also got the culture and you’ve got some smart [01:47:00] people on it who like want to do nothing more than tell other people how dumb they are. And that’s not a place from which you can get to the kind of community you’re describing in poker. But I do think you’re right.

That. There’d be room for it to exist in, in perhaps another forum. Yeah. I mean, I found I’ve found when I, you know, I don’t, I don’t play anymore, but I found that when I have those discussions with people in person or, you know, one-on-one, that they’re really, really valuable and engaging just, and even for me, just as someone who’s wanting to improve my knowledge.

You know, from a content creation standpoint and not from a personal, uh, betting standpoint. So, you know, some of the lessons I’ve learned from having those conversations in valuable and almost none of them have taken place in that public Twitter forum they’ve taken place in, in private messages, emails, or, or even better in person.

And it’s interesting. Cause like I said, in poker, those conversations are real. Like guys will. Come home from a session of [01:48:00] poker and they will get right on the internet and say, guys, here’s what happened. I’m in the early position, I got seven, eight of hearts. I did this, I did that. I, you know, I, I won the pot.

I I’m just, I really think I could have got some more value. What do you guys think? And so they’re really soliciting to hear rip me apart so I can learn more. Um, and, and I just think that because it’s, you know, maybe, like I said that a lot of them, like the two plus two forum is one place that people do that.

I think, I think you just need to have the right place and the right situation and you know, and it does help when it’s people that, you know, and trust a little bit too, because you know, there is some vulnerability in saying, look, I spent a hundred dollars on this ticket. It, it, it lost. I know people are gonna think it’s a terrible ticket.

I just want to know why, or maybe what I could have done different. And I’ll tell you a perfect example. A friend of mine the other day was saying how somebody asked his opinion on a, on a sequence. And he said, Oh, I wouldn’t play it. And he was like, why? He goes well, because I think there’s a big favorite, uh, who is a [01:49:00] three to five, it’s a single.

And he goes, I just can’t get around that horse. And so therefore I just, I don’t want to play the sequence. And he goes, the guy said, but you know, Who one of the winners is that should be a good thing. And he goes, but everybody’s doing that. You know, he goes, I got to do what everybody’s not doing, but that’s what, that’s how you get some differentiation.

But it was just interesting to hear his thoughts on that even, you know, just like, I just think it’s, it’s really valuable to hear people’s thoughts. And I don’t think Twitter is necessarily the best. Best place that those conversations are happening. Now, I know your relationship to gambling is very complicated.

Obviously you speak about it with, with great passion. It hasn’t been a positive force in your personal life. Where are you right now with bedding? Uh, I, well, I don’t and, uh, it hope to keep it that way. Uh, it, I just, yeah, I don’t, I never had an off button. I, I never had the discipline to, you [01:50:00] know, B to play only my convictions.

I mean, I’d studied the races. I’d go out, I’d play the first race or two, if I wanted to start firing more, if I lost it, start trying to play catch up. And I, I remember when I, I stopped playing the races, I remember trying to go back to poker and I noticed that that mentality, it kind of was carrying over to poker because when I first played poker, I was actually really disciplined at it.

Uh, And so I just, I just know for me, it’s just not a good thing. And so I just avoid it and I, I don’t do it. And, you know, I have, I felt hypocritical before, but for working in the business and doing it. Yeah. But you know, it’s also, I gotta, I gotta eat, I gotta pay my bills. And so, but I I’ve really become much more comfortable with the idea of.

Look, this is something I don’t do. And you know, when I, I’m also very, I even wrote that in the poker blog, like, you know, who am I to go have a ticket discussion with someone when I’m not doing it. But I do think I can contribute to those conversations. [01:51:00] Uh, and, and I’ve always looked at myself as far as the podcast is concerned as just wanting to create conversations and entertainment and all that kind of stuff.

So, um, You know, I, I think there’s there’s ways to do it. And it took me awhile to kind of figure out how to do it. Like my first couple of years of not betting like 2011, 2012, 2013, I really avoided all of it. I stopped doing pics at Portland for the program. I, you know, I didn’t bring cash to the track. I didn’t, uh, you know, I, I didn’t walk around the gaming area at all.

I mean, I just really, I went up through the back elevator. I mean, I really took every precaution to just avoid it and I kind of started dipping a toe into just. Talking about it more and doing all that kind of stuff, because I just thought that I kind of needed to as far as, you know, to put out an engaging product.

And so it’s a little bit of a walk in the line, but, you know, we, we, we deal with it. You’ve dealt with it. Well, and you do still handicap, which I think is, which is interesting. And, um, I was curious to just ask you a [01:52:00] little bit about your, your handicapping process, especially with. Um, bedding removed from the equation.

How do you approach looking at the races for example, that we’re going to be talking about in a couple of minutes at fairgrounds this weekend? I mean, I, I will still very much approach, well, here’s the thing. So my thoughts on bedding or how I would bet have. Changed about a hundred or what is it? 180 degrees.

That’s how it was turning all the way around three 60. Uh, I just, I look at it totally different. Now, a lot of that’s just from what I’ve learned from, from other friends and stuff, uh, that being said, I don’t want to ever try that because like I said, I just, I know how that I’ve played that whole thing out, man.

I know how it goes. So, uh, but I definitely look at things way, way different. I mean, I, I was. Very much raised from the TVG model of I’m going to play pick fours, pick fives. And I just, I got to put every horse in there that I think can win within [01:53:00] my budget and really not taking into account proper ticket structure, overlays any of that kind of stuff.

It was like, I’m going to pick a, I think a, B and C or who can win the both. So I’m going to put a, B and C on there, even if they’re three to five, six to five, two to one. Uh, and so I, and I, I think that. Was not helpful as far as my, my gambling career, but yeah. Honestly, it wouldn’t matter. Like I said, I just, I just don’t have the off button.

I don’t have the discipline to do it, but I do definitely try to find myself now looking through the races and kind of seeing how, what I think is the most efficient way to map it out. W w how I think other people are going to play it. That’s one thing I never used to do is spend time thinking about.

How, how, I mean, how my competition is going to play a sequence. You know, that example I gave you the guy the other day, you know, if everybody’s singling the three to five shots, how am I going to make my ticket different so that if it hits, I’m rewarded with more money because, you know, You know, if I [01:54:00] see guys all the time, like, Oh eight to one to start to sequence, it’s like, yeah, but that was the leg that everybody was going to be five or six deep.

You were five or six deep to get it. So now, you know, your equity going forward is the same as everybody else. Whereas if you single that horse, now you open up the rest of the sequence. Or if, you know, I mean, there’s just, there’s a lot different ways. I think about it now than I used to. Just before we get into the nuts and bolts of handicapping, what are you looking at data wise these days?

Uh, I’m a, I’m a breeze guy. I get I’m a company, man. No, I mean, it’s funny. I utilize, I. I’m very, I, I liked the optics program. I don’t subscribe to it because, you know, just spending money to have the data and not play. It is a little bit silly, but, um, when I have come across it and I’m friendly with Emily and John Doyle who worked there, I do think it’s a really good, valuable tool, particularly for pace and trip notes.

Um, and so when I, when I come across that I like to use it. I still, [01:55:00] I, you know, I, I still, uh, look at DRF sub and I, but bruise is kind of my, my main thing. And I, and I’ve gotten to where. I watched for the circuits that I really follow. I actually watched quite a bit of replays. And a lot of that is just for the show because you kind of gotta know what’s going on.

And, uh, but a lot of it’s, you know, trip handicapping and just making notes for horses. Cause you know, I’ll, I’ll mention horses. I like on the show and you know, everybody on the show knows I’m not betting them, but I still think sometimes there’s horses worth, man. I mean, there’s a, the stakes that, uh, aqueduct on Saturday, toboggan that horse on the rail had like the most brutal trip of all time last weekend.

But. Once the horse got through it, didn’t really. Accelerate, like you kind of thought it was. And I was saying on the show, I go, I think people are going to bet this horse because the trouble was huge and it probably did make a difference in the finish. But I said, I didn’t see that horse necessarily take off like a rocket once it got free.

And Syndergaard is not exactly the world’s biggest. You know, a heart filled horse. So I think a lot of people are going to bet [01:56:00] that horse off the trip. And I think maybe it’s one to kind of stay away from. Let’s talk about these races at fairgrounds. We’re going to start, we’re going to look at four races.

We’ll start off with the ninth, this, uh, Louisiana stakes, a mile and a 16th on the dirt. Jason, as our guest, we’ll have you start off before we bring in JK for his thoughts. Well, what I think is so interesting about this race is your morning line. Favorite is a horse who has not finished the course in two of the last five races.

And if you go back a sixth, race was six beat 19. Uh, so essentially ease, uh, and that’s honorable duty. Who’s on the outside. Now, the other three races are, are decent. There’s a win for optional a hundred and then a second, a third at grade one and grade three level. But it seems like. You know, there’s some big question marks on this horse, but you know, and then some of the finishes, those are in tough races, but I don’t know, taking a short price on a horse that has big question marks to me is always, uh, a no go.

Now the [01:57:00] horse loves the fairgrounds is three for three. And, you know, that’s certainly something to think about. But again, to me, when it comes to favorites, particularly ones that might be solid favorites. Uh I’m I’m immediately looking for question marks to avoid the horse and, and not reasons to go for it.

So I thought it was interesting in the sense that. I had, there was a favor in this race that I don’t like, which to some degree to me means I don’t necessarily have to be right with one horse because if I’m, you know, I can pick two or three, because now I’m getting prices on all three of them. Makes perfect sense.

And if you, if I put your feet to the fire and made you, uh, make a selection of one of those three that you like the best, who would you come up with? The, uh, I, I kinda like, uh, the brand tax horse a little bit pioneer spirit, uh, was finished third last time, but Brad Cox horses, you know, they, they run and, uh, the horse has just gotten to the fairgrounds for the first time in that race.

And, uh, the tenacious. So I don’t know, I just thought the horse was worthy of some improvement. Uh, Brett Calhoun is really, really [01:58:00] cold down there. This me, I kinda, I wanted to like silver dust is coming in off a couple of wins. Um, But Calhoun’s Barnes kind of Chile. And so I ended up, uh, if I had a top picks quote, unquote, it would probably be the four.

And then the three fat man was kind of my thing makes sense. And I liked the way you approach it in terms of sometimes your opinion of the race is more to be anti the favorite. Then for the selection, because it’s a podcast, we force you to make a selection basically, so we can claim it if you win enlightened self-interest here.

But, uh, I, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta read board alert by show. Anytime I read board, I played the hunt. Good ran board. I learned, okay. I think we need that around here. J K how do you see it, man? I, I actually love the horse that the Jason doesn’t like an honorable duty, you know? Um, he had mentioned back in 2017, uh, the horse had some races where he was, he came back and still ran really well.

Um, you know, I actually bet him that day in the marathon, uh, in the breeders cup, I’ve made it actually a pretty, I was [01:59:00] alive to him for a lot of money in the, in the, in the breeders cup betting challenge. I thought that he would be forwardly placed going that. Whatever it is 14 furlongs and he just, that race was not for him.

And he just absolutely stopped. Um, he was vanned off that day. Obviously. I think it was the distance that caused the problem. The fact that he shows up back here. I’m in this spot tells me that he’s probably, you know, he’s probably okay. Brendan Walsh is, is not, uh, one of the trainers that we, uh, we kind of put in the, in the delinquent category of some of the trainers that we have, where we, we think they’re up to.

No good. I think Brendan Walsh would do do right by this gilding. If he wasn’t going in the right direction, I think he’ll be fine here. And I think he gallops, I love the horse in the spot. Anything multi-racial wise. Uh, I would try to single here and get out alive. Obviously Harland punch for Cox makes a little bit of sense to a second switching to his barn, but, uh, I like double duty.

We’re developing a  on the show. It’s really been for a long time. We bring in a guest who makes an excellent contrarian opinion against the favorite [02:00:00] JK picks at anyway. Well, I mean, it was, and the thing is if he’s singling and if he’s right, he, you know, he’ll, he’ll be the one that’s rewarded. And, and I mean, the horse really isn’t either, or right.

I mean, you do have to really either kind of love him or hate him. Right. Right. And I also think that that, that I was a little bit annoyed by the morning line, because I feel like a horse who’s been kind of, you know, quote unquote, ease in his last two starts. You know, or his last start, we don’t. Why is he the favorite?

You know, that’s all, I’m hoping that he actually drifts a little bit, you know, I, I could see, uh, I could see a Harlan punch for Brad Cox actually going off favored, uh, or maybe, you know, someone else, you know, maybe I don’t know, anyone could, could possibly go off favored, uh, outside of honorable duty. So I’m hoping he drifts now these four to five, three to five.

I’d probably jump on the Jason van wagon of trying to find some value elsewhere, but I think he could be ignored just a little bit. All right. Let’s move on to race 10, the Colonel Bradley, we’re moving to the turf course mile and a 16th JK. We’ll keep it [02:01:00] with you. You know, looking at the, uh, the last race that a lot of these are coming out of the one that great wide open one, and the pace was really slow.

I was trying to find an alternative to the great wide open who kind of set that easy. He goes easy fractions. Uh, big changes is one that I don’t want. He was close enough that if he was good enough, he could have ran by and the same with, uh, sir Dudley digs. I mean, I think that the great wide open is the most likely winner he’s tactical he’s forward.

All of those things that you want to see in these turf races, where a lot of times they’re grabbing. If I was going to look for an alternative one that presents a lot of value, I think the five team colors who was trying to, he was actually the one that was the furthest back, trying to close into those slow fractions.

Did the grade wide open? Uh, it had last time. So in a contest format, I’d look to try to play a horse, like team colors when it comes to multi race, uh, wagers, I think I’d probably try to put 60 to 75% of my money through the great wide open and then maybe spread a little bit with the remaining percentage.

Uh, most of it focused on team [02:02:00] colors for, uh, for selection purposes. I’m going to take the horse. It’s going to be loose on the lead in great wide open, but I definitely would take a team colors into consideration. All right. Interesting, interesting. I was sure you were going with team colors as your topic there, but that’s more of the tournament one, because you think the pace advantage potentially to great for great wide open.

Jason, how do you, Peter, I’m sure you guys have run into this before. Have you ever had guests on your show where they talk about a horse with such passion, uh, that you ended up, they basically talked you into it. Oh, absolutely. That, that was kind of what happened to me with Michael Bay. Jack the other day was great wide open because he was just, he was defying over or not going fine, but he was just, he was loving how good he thought that last race was.

And, you know, for the horse. The horse is clearly better on the leave, right? I mean, you look at the races where he does it to get to that lead and they don’t end up very good. And the ones where he’s on the lead, he runs pretty big. And, uh, I just think he holds a pretty strong advantage of the horse to the outside that the Brad Cox horse, uh, has some [02:03:00] speed, but it it’s it’s dirt speed.

You have to go back quite a ways to see what the horses Terp pace was. And interestingly enough, the other tox runner is. Kind of a forward, the place one, right? Big changes is probably going to be the one right in behind those ones. So I’m curious what. Pioneer spirit does, because I think that affects whether or not a big changes or somebody else comes and runs down this horse because, uh, it seems like great wide opens just one who is really relishing things right now and is really digging on the fairgrounds.

And I think the outside draw allows them to kind of see what people are going to do, but I don’t think there’s much scene that’s going to happen. I think they’re just going to go to the front and, uh, and catch me if you can. Yeah. It’s interesting. Looking at that horse, you referred to Jason pioneer spirit on the outside.

I would. Think he’d have no choice, but to go J K what do you think, do you think Jeru is going to make things a little difficult for great wide open there? Or do you think he’s going to grab, or do you think great wide opens early paces such that it’ll just won’t even matter? Well, I think a lot of times when you’re trying to figure that [02:04:00] out, uh, one of the things that I like to do is look to see who the ownership groups are.

Uh, you know, when Baffert has to weigh in, it’s like, well, Baffert is not going to use a Zaire horse as a rabbit. For a Gary and Mary West horse like that, you can’t do that. But you know, in these situations like this, where it’s the same ownership group, you would think that they would do that. I would think pioneer spirit would be pretty aggressive, especially from that outside post, but the way that great wide open kind of shut off and kicked home on the last two, I don’t see that as necessarily being an issue.

If a horse. Can get loose in a soft paste race, then that typically tells you that they’ll, they’ll slow down and come into hand. Um, and that they’re rate-able horses. It’s the runoffs that are the ones that you gotta be careful about. Uh, I think the great wide open I’ll sit right off of pioneer spirit goes or a great wide open we’ll go.

I don’t think it’ll make a difference. Gotcha. All right. Let’s go on to race 11, the silver bullet day. One of my favorites from back in the day, uh, she was really cool. Philly. Jason, we’re going to start with you on this group of three-year-old fillies. How do you see it? Well, [02:05:00] this has been such a good division down there over the years.

It’s crazy. The three-year-old fillies that have come out of it and the next race and the sequence is, uh, is Rachel Alexandra steaks. And she was one of them. Um, I didn’t, I think that there’s any world beaters in here, I’m really intrigued by the seven horse, Mandy blue, uh, just because of what they, they started her at Indiana.

Broke the maiden coming from off the paste, sprinting on the dirt. And then they stretch out on the turf and she runs a pretty big effort and wins going away for optional 50. And I always love, you know, for these, these younger horses, I like seeing them make that instant jump. To the allowance or States where, so we see so many big maiden winners and then a lot of them just don’t come back as they get headed or what have you.

And so now the horse is going to stretch out on the dirt. It makes me think that maybe they didn’t re because they started in Indiana because they tried the turf last time. Makes me wonder if they’ve, if this horse has just been overachieving in the afternoons, like maybe they didn’t think they had this much horse and now they’re kind of like, Hey, maybe we got a good one [02:06:00] here.

Let’s take a crack with it. So I’m really intrigued by that particular runner. And I don’t love. The catalog snow horse. That’s the favorite? Uh, I mean, obviously, you know, the, it has a class advantages when a grade two last time out, but a lot changes. It seems like in those couple of months, between the end of two year old, nearly three-year-old.

And so I think, you know, either the rail horse or need supervision or somebody might. Kind of go with that one. So I’m hoping the seven is, is something and, uh, might, uh, continue to, uh, go on the upswing seven, Mandy blue for Jason. Also a look at number one fun finder. I am with you just looking quickly through the PPS about not particularly wanting to trust.

Number four, uh, Lee aura, or number five, need supervision, both listed on the lower end of the OD spectrum. Who’s your selection in here? JK. I agree with the four and the five in both of those could probably gal, but I want to try to get cute and beat them here. Um, the Wayne catalog winning the golden Ron, last time, those horses seem to always be over bet.

[02:07:00] Um, the horses that win those two year old steaks, the jockey club and the, uh, you know, and I think it’s the Kentucky jockey club or whatever it is. And then the golden rod, you know, Mandy blue, I agree is interesting. I won’t talk about her too much. Jason covered a lot of the things about her. One thing I will say.

Is, let’s not forget that Brad Cox is going to hold up a trophy for a filly that he started on the turf. That’s going to win three-year-old filly on the dirt and Monomoy girl. Right. So I wouldn’t look too much into that. And I’m trying to, you know, usually I would fatal horse like this, but with Brad Cox, it’s kinda making me, uh, making me be a little bit more forgiving.

I think the one that, that I was interested in, and this is a horse, it’s not typically one that, that like I can gravitate towards. I, you know, I’m a speed figure guy. But fun finder down on the rail. Those even kind of runs where they, it feels like they’re just kind of clipping twelves around there. The one term mile at Gulf stream drew the rail here.

Can you make peak kg as ever with these types of situations? Down on [02:08:00] the inside could inherit the lead and then they just got to, you know, now you got to find out which one of these newly turned three-year-old fillies wants to pass, uh, other horses. And I think she presents a bunch of, a bunch of value.

I would spread here in a, in a, in a, in a multi-racial situation, probably one, five, six, seven, Uh, the one in the seven present, the most value. I’d take the seven though, as my selection. Okay. I was going to ask you to clarify, so I’m glad you did, uh, the, the, the panel sees that one the same. All right. We’ve got a few minutes left and we’ve got one more race to talk about.

We’re on the triple crown trail. Now Fela’s the lockup grade three mile and 70 and JK. We’re going to start with you. If you like a horse here, you’re a liar. This race is hard. Um, I think more of will end up being the favorite based on that kind of impressive run at Churchill and the slop, which was, was a weird race in general.

I think that was closing day at Churchill, uh, when they had that mandatory pick six payout. Um, but world will, [02:09:00] I think will probably be the favorite. I’m going to try to get away. From from that horse. Um, there’s two words that have caught my attention. The first one is, is tight 10. Uh, you know, the two year olds that run these kind of faster numbers, I think they always translate well.

When, when they’re turning into three, I think Duke Matisa said he, you could expect maybe 10 to 12 points of an increase based on what a horse could run when they were two. Um, if you look at tight 10, that could be a pretty big jump that could make this one tough to beat. Steve asked mucin doesn’t need any introductions.

My kind of sneaky one is, is the two horse down on the inside. I think it’s a mile pace. The one that pays figure is kind of backwards like that. And if you look at time for U S where they ran really fast, early sprinting, I think it just shows a lot of ability that a lot of energy was, was, was probably used early in the race.

It shouldn’t have been in with training maturity, that, that if that energy can be harnessed and B be used differently, you can kind of see those big jump ups. The horse is obviously [02:10:00] tactical, uh, will be able to save ground on the inside. I think that one’s a little bit sneaky and interesting as a horse that could be forwardly placed.

And could show, uh, show up, you know, going that two turns for the first time I’m going to pick tight 10 as my selection, but, uh, for the record, if you’re playing any, any picks, I definitely wouldn’t use the two as well. I think what you’re talking about about projecting figure improvement. It’s not like it magically happens between two or three.

You’ve got to look at what month it happened in, and then maybe be able to project a couple of points improvement for a month, but a horse who was talented enough to be running a 79 in the summer. Then you take, you know, three months of winter improvement, 10 to 12. Sounds like a lot to expect here in the middle of January, but I mean, I think six or eight feels about right.

But the other thing, I think it’s important and, and, and, you know, maybe on the last show, we didn’t say this out loud. Um, and I, and trust me, I, I I’ve bought his book 10 times and sent it to friends about, Hey, you need to learn about speed figures, but buyer with two-year-olds. If a number comes [02:11:00] back too fast, he will project that down.

You know, the same thing he did with bolt D’oro it’s like, well, bolt D’oro. If he ran this fast, he’s the fastest two year old ever. So I can’t do that. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna project the number down a little bit. So you gotta be careful if a horse who was, you know, earned a 65 there there’s, there could be a little bit of projection in that it could have really been a 72 73, 74.

So that’s one of the reasons I think you can see the big jumps is, is a lot of times I think filmmakers are a little bit hesitant to do that. And I think Craig Milkulski even does a little bit of it. Not too much. Um, but, but a little bit of it, we can, we can ask them next time we have them on. Yep, absolutely go.

All good people to have on the show by or Duke Matisse and the Craig Milkulski Jason, bring us home here for the . How do you see it? I I’m a similar to the Johnson’s original thought in the sense that I, there was nobody who I was just thinking like, man, this thing’s going to jog. And I love his points on Titan Titan to like such a brutal trip in that [02:12:00] breeders kept too.

I mean, I think he hit the rail and it looked like he was just massively uncomfortable in the early stages. And that obviously led to the not great late stages. The other words coming out of the juvenile I thought was a little bit interesting as far as Mr. Money, just because. You know, th the, you beat nine and a half lengths, and obviously there’s no game winner or next go in here.

We don’t think, uh, but to me, this horse, at least to the quarter pole kind of looked like it was traveled okay. With the rest of those. So I’m a little interested in Mr. Money, but I’m going to super bomb here. I’m going to the five night ops for Keith. DeSorbo a maiden. So that’s certainly a big question, Mark.

I know they’ve had some rain there in the last couple of days and fairgrounds, and I know it might rain again on Saturday. Uh, I think that maybe move this horse up, uh, the horse that beat him in my ear kind of had a perfect, just first have to use a harness term and we get I’m in harness mode right now, but kind of had the hurt, had the first over trip last time.

And, uh, this one came running and I just thought ran a pretty nice race in the slop last time. Uh, the big log [02:13:00] fairground stretch. There’s a few in here that. Look like they’re a little bit speedy and you know, and it’s, it’s newly turned. Three-year-old’s going to turn. So I just, I thought in a race where I didn’t love anybody, I think.

My, my brain tells me to go for price. And I think this one’s going to be a big one. I like it. It’s a compelling case. Jason, thank you so much for all of your insights and handicapping, and also just sharing some of your story. We did not talk about your book at all. Want people to know about that as well?

It’s called southbound. Where can people find it? Uh, it’s, uh, most of your online book, really? Tailors Barnes and noble and Powells. Uh, and, uh, uh, what’s the big one, the Amazon, all three of that plate. Peter, have you ever been to pals books in Portland? Yeah. One of the best independent bookstores in the country.

In the world? Probably. Yeah. It’s a magical place. I’ve seen some cool. Readings out there and it’s, it’s a must go [02:14:00] to when you’re in Portland. I mean so much great stuff I can tell. I can, I can tell you one of the greatest moments in my life was seeing my book on the shelf in pals. I, I remember the first time I saw that.

I mean, I just was ready to lose it and I think I brought like five consecutive, first dates to pals after that. Oh, they have my book. That’s cool. But how, I didn’t know that already. Yeah. We just happened to be walking you through the B section of a literal yes. Yes. Southbound is available. Uh, a lot of horse players have told me they enjoy it.

So, uh, uh, I hope they would check it out. Okay. Stuff for more from Jason beam right away. You want to check out this year as the fifth annual beamy awards, you can check him out at BME awards on Twitter. You can also hear him. On the bat America radio network, easiest way for folks to find the pod, probably same as you guys, wherever you find your podcasts, but a better [02:15:00] is a good, a direct link, but the iTunes, Freaker, Stitcher, iHeart, all that, all that, all those ways.

I have noticed that it’s always tended to be very Apple. Heavy on our downloads. So I don’t know if people just love iTunes and Apple, or it seems like a lot of people listen on their phone. It’s easy. That’s true for you guys as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of direct stuff from SoundCloud is our host.

We get a lot from SoundCloud, but iTunes is most of the market for sure. Um, and the convenience of it on there. Make sense. So please subscribe. Uh, and Jason, I’d love to have you back on the show too. And if you’re ever hard up for a guest, I bet JK or I could help you out. Well, Peter, we’ve already, we’ve already talked about that.

We know there will be some in, uh, in the money, a presence on the barn. Short. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. I want to thank Jonathan kitchen. I want to thank Jason beam. One more time when to thank DJ unstable for his continued technical support, but most of all, I want to thank all of you. The listeners [02:16:00] you make the show so much fun to do.

Hey. If you haven’t done our survey yet, I’m going to leave it live for a couple more days and then call it a wrap. We’re getting some great information. It’s helping me out tremendously. I’m going to leave a link on the next blog. I’ll put it go there and you can click on the link and please take our survey.

Also if you’re really feeling froggy and want to jump and help us out, go ahead and go to iTunes, leave a review, leave a review. Wherever you can subscribe to the blog in the money We’ve had a tremendous amount of support from listeners during this transitional period. And we appreciate the support.

Again, you are the ones who make the show so fun to do. We love hanging out here with you two times a week and are going to continue to do so. Uh, for the indefinite future on the, in the money players podcast. And that’s all we got, we will be back next week. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. May you win all your photos?

[02:17:00] Um,

 Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. Hello, and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is show number seven, the Tuesday, January 15th edition. However, we are recording this the day before on Monday the 14th. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in a very.

Chile, very chilly Brooklyn [02:18:00] bunker. I sent out the picture. That’s totally legit. I’ve got like six layers on. I don’t know what’s going on. Thankfully I do have Mugsy the handicapping Labrador lying on my feet for extra warmth. That’s definitely helping. And we have a very special guest. Every guest who comes on the show is special, especially for the hour.

They’re here with us today, though. Somebody I’ve been meaning to talk to on air for a long time. And what a story he has, we’re going to get to him in a minute. First off. However, we’re going to introduce the co-host of this program. He’s been traveling around. He’s been going to couple showers and watching football and eating hot wings.

He’s the people’s champion. Jonathan kitchen. JK what’s up? Absolutely. Just got back from Houston. A lot of, a lot of fun this weekend, honoring the. The Prince of keen linen is a bride to be, so we had a good time hanging out. Uh, he’s got a crazy, crazy crew of friends from back in Houston. So, uh, always fun.

Wouldn’t that be the princess of Keeneland? I mean, if we’re just going to keep along with the same type of nomenclature. [02:19:00] I think you’re right. And also the princess of druthers by extension. All right. I always introduce J K as the people’s champ. The, some of, you know, the story behind it, J K a former N H C tour champion.

I used to work at this little publication with the three letters, right. And we were partners with the NHC slash NTRA for many years in the immediate. Aftermath of their breakups. See, not all breakups are as amicable as mine with DRF in the immediate aftermath of the breakup between the NTRA and the DRF.

There were some tensions and I thought maybe it wasn’t the smartest or best in the world for me at the top of every show to say, and here’s a former NTRA NHC tour champion, Jonathan kitchen. And thus, he became. The people’s champion. And of course the people do love him. So it’s only slight hyperbole there, but I am very proud to introduce [02:20:00] the latest and HC tour champion to the airwaves.

And I am talking about Dave  Dave, how are you? My friend. Definitely not the people’s champion that’s for sure. Um, depends which people I’m 12 hours removed from getting knocked out of the poker tournament, four people away from making the national televised final table. So believe it or not, despite having a pretty good weekend, I’m a little bit flustered at the moment.

Some frustration about not playing that final table today, but yeah, life is, uh, from, uh, Certainly the perspective of the tour and this miracle that’s happened. It’s pretty unthinkable remarkable. There’s so many adjectives you could describe like that. It’s just, it’s totally insane. It is insane. And we’ll start from the beginning for folks who don’t know.

I’ll ask it this way. How long ago was it Dave that on [02:21:00] Twitter and to your friends privately in life, you announced your retirement essentially from, I don’t think it was just contest. I thought it was racing in general. When did that happen? It was mostly racing in general and I don’t think I ever stopped playing contests even for last year’s NHC, which I did not play.

And I did try and qualify at Hawthorne over Thanksgiving and. Over new year’s. So I did try and qualify for the NHC, the most recent NHC that I did not participate in, but you’re talking, I think about a video that was recorded at the world series of poker. A couple of years back, it was summer of 2017, shortly after the results of a certain lawsuit that.

I was involved in as a businessman. And I think a lot of the issues regarding me, uh, in horse racing, you gotta separate them as two different [02:22:00] topics. Me as a tournament player, a and me as a businessman, trying to come into the horse racing industry as B and a lot of my bitterness stems from, uh, the businessman aspect of trying to get involved in the horse racing and in horse racing.

I don’t want to pick at the scab, but you brought it up. I think we do need to talk about it at this point. Where are you on the entrepreneurial side? Are you still involved in any way, shape or form at Derby Wars or is this something that’s totally behind you and you have anything to get off your chest?

As far as the law you were referring to? I invested in a horse racing labs eight years ago. Um, we own horse racing nation, as well as own Derby Wars. I still, as far as I know, I’m still a shareholder. Let’s just put it this way. I, I course racing [02:23:00] nations is a pretty, you know, known media outlet right now. I own a piece of it.

And. Let’s just say a nobody from horseracing nation has contacted me during this little run that I’ve had over the past couple months. It’s been a very disappointing and bitter experience in every way, shape or form. I have basically zero to do with what’s going on with Derby Wars at this point on any sort of day-to-day basis.

The people that I. Was working with there, the game manager, Matt and Brad are no longer there. And I literally have nothing. It’s sad. It really is that it’s gotten to this, but I have, I have literally nothing to do with it. You know, I hope for the best, you know, maybe someday I’ll see a return on my investment.

Uh, from eight years ago, six figure investment and it just hasn’t happened. And there have been, [02:24:00] um, walls. Placed in front of our company, uh, from, within the industry. And it was a real eyeopening experience. Uh, and that that’s that’s about as far as is I can and should go in this particular forum. So Dave, so you, you, you had your retirement and, uh, congratulations.

Hey, welcome. Welcome to the club. Thank you. It’s a nice club to be in. I got a nice little message from Mr. Sandra, welcoming you to the cup club over the weekend. Um, club. I never thought I was going to make it and do that’s for damn sure. What, uh, now that you mentioned it, what brought you back? I mean, I know that you weren’t playing a lot early in the year, trying to qualify you.

You hopped into the race at the quarter pole, uh, the summer, and obviously, uh, And, and, and, and looked like midnight loot there late. What, what, what kind of brought you back? What was the decision behind that? Well, I was never out of retirement from playing the [02:25:00] NHC, so I’m wanting to qualify by looking at the NHC and we can talk about this.

Perhaps later, but it’s, to me it’s a $2 million free role. I’m not playing generally the online games, you know, places like Hawthorne, the, the other places where I won tournament’s Monmouth metal lands, low style, they run really nice tournaments. They add the spots it’s for somebody that sees themselves as a perceived value whore.

Those tournaments are terrific opportunities to get into the NHC and, um, I was never really retired from playing big tournaments. Now I very rarely bet real money. These days, my participation on a day-to-day basis on my phone accounts far less than what it used to be. I have no passion for the sport.

Anyway, at this point anymore, it’s been cut out of me. It’s been stomped on, but I never stopped. Point tournaments. And I did want to qualify for the [02:26:00] NHC. So I played a Turnitin at low Sal after the world series and go into some Cubs games with Chaffey. Didn’t win, won a tournament in late July. Then I played another tournament in the middle of September at the Meadowlands, and I won that and I was double qualified and I was happy.

I was like, great. I got my two entries. Going to Vegas. I was done for the air. As far as the tour, I had never played it. I had never chased it. I’d never participated it to the point where I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Point wise as the whole process was unwinding. I had no idea how points work.

I was so naive. So just not knowing about any of this stuff. And then after I won that whole, the word tournament, which I played to win a second million dollar bonus to build some confidence after a rough stretch. And, uh, there was some spite involved regarding an invitational contest that I [02:27:00] wasn’t invited to at Hawthorne in the earlier in the year.

And I wanted to remind a certain John Wall step, you know, I still exist and I’m still good at these things. I won the tournament after Thanksgiving and Stevie Wilson comes up to me afterwards or during the contest, when I have deleted, he’s like, you’re going to chase them. I’m like, no, I got my $2 million bonuses.

I’m done. And something, or something happened that night or the day after a couple of other people asked me about the tour and I just clicked on the N N E C site, the NTRA site. And I looked at Paul Sherman scores. And by the way, I need to just stop for one moment. What a year for Paul Sherman. Um, part of what makes this special for me winning the tour is defeating the legend, running down a hall of Famer and all time.

Great. And, um, it’s something that I’ll always cherish. [02:28:00] Um, Because of just how great he’s been and how important he’s been. But I clicked on Paul’s scores. I clicked on foot lamps scores. I kicked out quick on Karen Carey score and I see all of a sudden, my three, three thousands of like, Well there, those are hard pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

And then I start examining what the second half of the tool is like, and I need basically two scores to get a BCB CBCC and I feel like all of a sudden, if I’m not playing the tour for the rest of the campaign, I’m pissing away. Equity I’m blowing. I’m just throwing away money. I’m throwing away. It shifts to do something.

And when I made the decision to play the remainder of the live contest at that point, which were two mama’s contest, one at low, sell two at Hawthorne, and then the five seventy-five dollar points chasing contest. I just [02:29:00] was hoping, uh, it’ll pick up a BCPC seat, maybe squeak into the top five, get into the top 20 and pick up a few bucks.

And what happened since then? It’s just ridiculous, insane. A miracle of all miracles. So many things. Had to go right. To get me to where I got to all five ones. If any of those wins are seconds went out, talking today and the hardest results I got were the two thirds in the online contest. I don’t know how that happened.

No, no idea at all. First online MHC, qualifier, I play in a decade. I finished third out of three 70. How does that happen? Let’s keep it going with this thought process. I love the evolution of, okay, well now I got to stick around for the BCBC seat. Now, maybe I can get into the top five. What is the moment where it switches and you think [02:30:00] maybe I can win this thing.

Two moments. One of them at Monmouth park. When I think it was breaking the rules. I forget the name of the shag horse that won the tropical park Derby. The last race. Is it breaking the rules? Yes. Ironic name for me to chore with that just hit me. When I breaking the rules was in the midst of getting a perfect trip and I’m standing next to Palmer teas at minus.

That was the point I knew I was in the lead, but I know I got Paul Sherman chasing me and he’s got literally five chances to win a tournament and break my heart. So I never felt comfortable. You know, I had the moment at mama’s where I let out a lot of emotion and I let it go. When they posted the results at Monmouth.

That moment I will remember. But the other [02:31:00] moment that I felt like I’d won the tour, I felt really good about it was last Sunday night after the San Anita tournament. And I knew that Paul basically needed to win a 600 person online tournament where he put your picks in, in advance. Yeah, he’s got three and threes.

Yeah, he’s awesome. But it’s hard to win and I’m like 99% and last week was torture. It was freaking torture because I was so close and it was so supposed to happen at that point. And if it had been taken away, it would have been just so. Painful. It was, I was like living in a hole. Paul tweeted at me last week.

Jokingly Russ makes a comment about making a deal and I can’t even bring myself to respond about it. Oh, that’s too funny. You quoted Tom [02:32:00] petty on Twitter. As I recall, you were certainly relating to that idea of the weighting being the hardest part. Oh, that that boy had, like I say last week was just it’s.

So it’s easier being the chaser than the chasee, you know, at least you, you, you know what to do, you you’re sitting there. You’re just like, I mean, I was at there sweating Paul’s horses and he’s got Stony Bennett in the first race and he’s got he’s one of the 72 people. That’s got the $20 winner to start with and like eats of his next lunch shops.

I’m watching them and there’s this. Pit in my stomach. There’s this just like, Oh, let it be over with and the NDA and the, I know the math is against them and I know how hard it is, but I knew how hard it was for me to be in the spot that I was in. So anything can happen. I guess, Dave, what, uh, for everyone who’s listening.

Claris up? What, what, what bonuses are you playing for now? Like [02:33:00] you must be playing for $5 million. I’m playing for a whole lot of money. Um, I think they’re good folks at the NCRA are going to market me as being a plan for 6.8. Million dollars. They might even say 6.9 million. If they kick in the a hundred K from the tour I am eligible for and both of my entries and, uh, by virtue of Hawthorn offering the winners of their contest, a million dollar bonus, I was already all eligible for a million dollar bonus on both of my entries.

Before the tour, when, and now the tour, when I guess we wouldn’t have to pick one of the entries and entry a will be available for a $6 million bonus and that three B pour entry B, we’ll just be having that $1 million bonus and eventually being wins. You know, I’m going to have to live the rest [02:34:00] of my life, wondering with a million $0.80 that what I could have done differently if I’d made that one decision on eight versus.

But, you know, I guess though, the mental gymnastics that I was trying to avoid by going out to Hawthorne and when that second million dollar bonus, now I am going to have to deal with for $5 million bonus. Should that come to pass Dave, we’re going to break out the world’s smallest violin. If you only win the $1 million bonus, you and you, and a lot of other people.

And, uh, it’s funny, uh, They’re on G Jonathan they’re out haters and the trolls. Ooh, I haven’t seen.

I hope you don’t take this as trollish, but maybe this is the type of thing that is being asked of you. I had this on my difficult questions list and I just going to hit you with it for somebody who’s brand new. And they bring me the, bring the, the whole West concern [02:35:00] for someone who’s been such a vocal critic.

Of the NTRA of the NHC. Is there any part of you that thinks it’s hypocritical to spend so much time and mental energy, money and emotional energy chasing this tour in the end? How do you reconcile your own complex feelings about the event with the experience you’re going through right now? My first thought has to do with.

I hate to say it like this myself. I’m 57 years old. Pretty darn unemployable in the world of horse racing, which is, you know, the only place I really have any expertise other than maybe a modicum of expertise in poker at this point, but I’m unemployable and I need to make money. And the equity opportunity that came up with a tour, it was just like, [02:36:00] I’m not into taking hundred dollar bills and throwing them out the window.

I’ve never. I’ll say it again. I’ve never stopped participating in the NHC. I’ve, I’m S I’m somewhere near the top all the time in the scoring list. I was second all time going into last year’s NHC, which I did not participate in. I’ve been, uh, I think a important part of the NHC from before it even started to the par fact where, when they had a sports illustrated writer on board to write about the NHC Mark Beech tagged along with me at the MGM grand, when it was on ESPN, I was part of the.

Broadcast team for ESPN when the NAC was out of the Iran. Rippy one on the one hand, I would say my Prince, a lot of my criticism of the NHC is based at it from a player standpoint. It’s somebody that [02:37:00] wants to see the NHC better as somebody that cared about the NHC and wants the NHC better now, separately.

It’s so I’ve been a vocal critic forever about the online NHC qualifies. They stink for players, but players at some point. Got to take their own responsibility. They’ve been treated like a captive audience by the NCRA forever, and yet they keep playing and they keep knowingly and willingly participating in these games that are bad deals for them.

I mean, you can see it on the HorsePlayers website when they see the value of at NHC packages, $9,260. And you can see it when, you know, you play in a live event and they see the value of an NHC seat is 3,500 or [02:38:00] 4,000, but people continue wanting to play for the 9,000 package when it’s the same as the 3,500 package.

And without the people, without the players contributing to the online, which makes DNA see kit from a financial standpoint. There’d be no $2 million price pool. If the players didn’t allow themselves to get taken advantage of and consider you to be stupid and play the online games. So there’s a lot of blame to go around and as a player, As somebody whose job it is to be a perceived value or in the world of tournament, whether they’re being poker or horse racing, the area C is an annual opportunity for me to make money.

Heck three years ago, I cast for almost six figures there. The LHC for me as a player is a great opportunity every year. It’s one that I’ve well, I welcome. [02:39:00] It’s one that I’ve been a part of for 20 years and the only block of mine on a certain resume. Is, I’ve never participated in a tour and they’re blocks over by the way.

And yes, I talked to you about, I am bringing up maybe one of your other tough questions, but so it is complicated. Where I stand with you at HC in the NCRA and then it was a businessman I would be experienced from what I dealt with with Derby Wars, with dealing with the NCRA. And let’s us say Derby Wars did not get treated well by the NCRA.

I’m not saying anything that is down any tail that I’m saying out of bed or anything like that. So. I have issues with the NCRA as to how they treated Derby worse. I am issues with the NCRA, I’ve be blatantly take advantage of a public that allows themselves to be taken advantage of, but the public and in part, because the, [02:40:00] how the players committee is allowed it to happen.

The players also have, you know, the ones that are. Continuing to play $165 a week. There’s great things about me winning this darn tour, but without question, the efficiency in which I did it with is gotta be talked about, and I’m proud of it. 11 live bank road tournaments, 23. Buy-ins in those 10 weeks. Two one with three turning five of those 23 bank rolls.

Five of the 11 tournaments in the wins. No seconds, no thirds right out of the Andy buyer book. Perfect result. Line wins. No zero, no places, no shows. And by the way, I will add speaking of the legend, that is Mr. Buyer. One of the 20 to one shot winners that helped me win this tort low sale was a Z pattern horse, a [02:41:00] class V pattern horse.

I may digress. I also, and then I played only five online tournaments, five of the $75 online tournaments, three entries in four, one, two, and threes. And two, I’m glad to say I didn’t play. Once I hit the top, I stopped playing online qualifiers. I played and I had every reason to play, uh, the last live slash online tournament that was held in a West coast race track.

Uh, and. For last Sunday and I did not play that. I did not. So I understand some, you know, the Charlie Davis’s of the world saying that I sold my soul to the devil

I understand. And you know what, Pete, his heart’s in the right place. As far as I’m concerned here, you know, I talked to Garrett, uh, at Hawthorne, [02:42:00] we text quite a bit, you know, we have the Derby worst connection together, and I think some, sometimes people misinterpret. Passion for negativity and what people care about something.

When people want things to be better, they speak out about it. They want it to be better. And. I know Garrett, definitely. When he came to me in this tour, things he’s on my side. He was one of the first to congratulate me on Saturday. And, um, no, I don’t think he would have done it if he was in my shoes.

Maybe he’s got, you know, he’s got more money than I do or something he can afford to be stubborn like that. I can’t, well, there’s so much to unpack from what you’ve said, just to keep people on point. It’s a couple of things you said in there, Dave, that they may or may not be following Garrett. Of course, Garrett schema, greatest [02:43:00] live bank player of all time, actually one.

That contest you were referring to at Santa Anita that you declined to play in your decline in participation. Now this is just me guessing, and you correct me, had nothing to do with why I’ll just come out and say it. I, um, the lawsuit, I took the lawsuit real hard, real personal. I had to write a check after the lawsuit and I ain’t stepping foot in the TSG track and participating in any TSG stuff until things change.

Period. And to me that shows that your, you are a person of your, of your principles. It’s, it’s a little bit different. I don’t know. I don’t get the idea of like being a sellout. I think it’s interesting and worthy of discussion that someone who’s such a vocal critic would choose to play. I think you made the exact.

Your explanation makes complete and total sense to me, it’s a financial decision. You, you can’t leave money on the [02:44:00] table when it’s, when it’s there for the taking. And I also take the point that someone can be very critical of something, maybe to a point where it’s almost comical to me and not referring to you, but some of the other people we’ve talked about at times, but still they do that.

Not because there’s darkness in their soul, but because they want things to be better and maybe their way of expressing their problems or issues, isn’t what I would choose. But it’s their prerogative as. Human beings to express their feelings in their way. And it doesn’t necessarily make anybody a bad person.

I do want to loop back to what your point, especially your point where you include the players in the blame. It is the players podcast after all. I just want to point out that while you are someone who is. Grinding for a living, a lot of horse players, a lot of the people playing in the NHC. I mean the vast majority, 98% of them or [02:45:00] something are not in that position.

They’re recreational. And for them who don’t necessarily have the opportunity to travel to tournaments, even though the value isn’t necessarily they’re playing online. I don’t think it’s crazy in terms of the convenience for the experience. And that’s where I see the world differently than you and Garrett, when it comes to the NHC.

I agree with you guys completely. If I’m looking for an investment in horse, race, betting and contest betting, that is for me, the way I play, not. It. However, I don’t judge somebody who wants to get there for the experience. It’s the closest thing we have to a horseplayer convention. Uh, no offense to our friends at a Quester con who are doing their thing, but in terms of a horseplayer convention, that’s now been around for 20 years and you go, and you can have a great time and be with like-minded people I can see and respect getting the worst of it a little bit.

[02:46:00] Maybe, maybe not a little bit getting the worst of it a lot financially. To be able to participate in that event. And then to flip over to, as you refer to our friends at the NTRA side, if people are willing to pay it, I, I guess I just don’t have that big a problem with them charging it. Do do you think I’m a horrible sellout for my point of view?

I just want you to comment on that. I don’t think first of all, it’s somebody who spoke on behalf of the NHC at the symposium in Tucson before. The NHC existed. I was invited there by the late Jeff Saltman, who needs to be at the NHC hall of fame. Great idea. Great idea. This tournament was designed as a give back.

The horse players, as an appreciation for horse players, it wasn’t designed as a way to make out Waldrop’s [02:47:00] $400,000 salary. It wasn’t designed as a way to, um, Take advantage of the HorsePlayers that you’re supposed to be showing appreciation for and for supporting the business. So the spirit of what the NHC, how it was created, it was not created as a for-profit event for a nonprofit organization.

That would be my response to that powerful and, and, and compelling and interesting stuff to think about JK going to bring you back in here as a player who I know loves the NHC as an event, but it’s also somebody who likes to bet with value. How do you reconcile my point of view with what the w w with, with the, the very interesting points that Dave is making well, and I never get offended by, by, by people charging.

Know, I know a lot of people get mad when like Uber surgeon’s like, it doesn’t make me mad. Like if we’re paying for it, [02:48:00] then they’re right, right. So yeah, I do get where Dave’s coming from. I think that a lot of guys, um, and, and to your point as well, probably participate online. Cause that’s their convenience.

I guess the argument that I would make and the argument that I’ve made and players’ committee meetings and talking about talking with the NTRA staff about different topics, it’s like, well, what would happen if the online game was priced at the same level as the live. Would the online game show growth, would we have more people participating?

Would people be able to stick around longer and to play more? I I’m not, I’m not, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, I’ve never acted to be like I’m Marshall Graham when it comes to getting the answers to those questions. It’s just a question to ask, but I’m not totally offended when, when someone decides to do that, I just prefer to not do it.

But, um, you know, but, but I’m glad there’s 600 guys that play in the contest. And if we’re being Frank, I think Dave will agree. I’m glad that three of them, 300 of them aren’t capable of winning it. Uh, it’s a great opportunity for players like us, that, that try to take it a little bit more seriously. [02:49:00] Just to underline what JK saying, he, that you’re saying you declined to participate in the online events as well for you as a player, because the value isn’t there, but you don’t judge people.

Yeah. It’s not only the, the value is a big part of that. Right. Um, and, and when you, when you win the tour, you usually have to play a lot online. Like Dave said, he deserves a lot of credit for the way that he. The the way that he nimbly, uh, worked his way through it without having to play online as much.

But you typically have to. And at the end of the year, when you look back on it, you realize that man, it’s hard to win those contests and the style in which I play. I know we joke a lot about how much chalk I play, but it’s a real thing. I can’t win those one in 60 contests. It’s hard for me to win them.

And so for my game, the way that I play, as well as the financials that Dave mentioned earlier, I don’t play in the online ones, but I’ll play in every live one that you have. You can put a live one in. And, uh, Guatemala I’d show up flight benefits to Guatemala. I like it, Dave, another tough one. So I [02:50:00] think that we, there there’s so much commonality between the way that the three of us on this podcast, the vision that we would have, if we were allowed to just unilaterally make changes, I think there’d be a lot of commonality between the way that the three of us would do it.

Our approach, typically JK and myself is to try to play as much as possible, uh, on the inside of things. JK mentions he’s, uh, a member of the players committee over at the, at the NTRA trying to help the event from your point of view, as more at this point, anyway, someone who was more of an insider now more of an outsider, I’ve seen you tweet more than once.

Something to the effect of, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Do you think J K and I, with our more inclusive approach, whatever you want to call it, do you think part of the problem? That’s, that’s a loaded question. So many let’s [02:51:00] first of all, Keep in mind, I was on a player’s panel back after the 2002 breeders breeders cup fiasco.

And if somebody wanted to say at this point that I’m not a part of the solution, because I’m on the outside looking in that’s true. And I just want to go. Use a different term, different terms. You use the term insider and outsider. I’m going to, you go run all rustling on you. I used to be a face and now I’m mostly considered a heel.

Um, I would say that. P U S since you asked the question, I would say your time with the DRF, you and I had some private conversations when you got hired. I would say that you’ve been a part of the problem that you promoted Vienna when you were working for DRF and DRF had the NTRA that you kind of turned a blind eye to the.

Bad value. And you [02:52:00] led some people down the path of playing online. I would say in that, I would say for that you are guilty of doing the job you were paid to do. I can accept that. I mean, I will say, and if you go back and read in the winning contest player, I say very explicitly from day one, and this is a line I got from no one.

Other than Paul Sherman himself, that in my promotion of the NTRA for as long as I did it in my role at DRF, I was always very clear. The NHC for me, it’s about the event. It’s not about the value. And so that, that is why as a, someone, I consider myself a horseplayer advocate and, and I sleep like a baby, knowing that, um, that I don’t feel like I was ever, like, you have to do this because your money’s in good.

Th th there’s there’s lines that I will not cross of things that I will say, even in marketing speak and I’d put the line there, but having been, and having loved the [02:53:00] event and having seen how many casual players show up there and have a great time. It’s not like. People are leaving. They’re feeling like they, they had a bad experience.

And I guess I just feel like that’s the, a little bit of a disconnect between a professional player’s mindset, which you have, and more of an enthusiast mindset, who I think are most of the people who are, who, who go to that event? Is that a, is that a fair defense of myself? That is, that is, I think that’s a good assessment of, you know, there is definitely, there are definitely players at the NHC that are more serious and, uh, the vast majority, however, casual recreational weekend horse players.

Uh, so I, most of the tournaments are on the weekends. You’re right. They do have a great experience. It’s the only one and everybody who goes, seems to have a good time. Uh, I’m always amazed by it. I played tournaments every week. To me. It’s just another tournament when I’m there, [02:54:00] but, uh, yeah, people it’s, I, what it is, is it, that was part of the reason why the NHC was created is.

Horse players get treated with respect. They get treated nicely at the NAC. They feel like they’re part of something important. That was the whole part. The whole point of the NHC in the first place is a pioneer is somebody that was literally in on the meetings when this thing started. And that’s what this was all about.

That spirit. But unfortunately that spirit comes with a price with the online games that, you know, I wish didn’t have to be. If you were to change one thing about the NHC, what would it be? Have a more straightforward qualifying process. And I’m actually, I’m going to say two, two things you asked for one, I’m going to say two things.

Number one, I think the qualifying parameters and [02:55:00] how the money. How the money is created for the price post should be more straight forward. And at this point, um, I think the tour, excuse me, the NHC. I think it’s gotten. A little bit too big. I’d like to see qualifying become more difficult again. I, you know, you know, maybe, you know, I, I qualified five times in whatever in 11 times, maybe I’m just running my mouth right now, but I think qualifying isn’t as important as.

This tournament it, I think if it was 400 people, 450 people, and, you know, you raised, uh, you know, the places for the, for the seats. I think he, I think it’d be a better tournament at this point. Coming from the poker world, especially, I think that’s an interesting point to [02:56:00] consider seeing how that the, the huge influx of numbers does a lot of things.

One is it creates more randomness to my mind in the events themselves. Is that part of what you’re concerned about when it comes to potentially limiting the size of the field? I’m looking at it from a different perspective. I think qualifying and making it to the final should be important. I don’t know what the exact numbers are, but, you know, having spent more time than I’d like to admit on the.

NTRA uh, NAC leaders page over the last few weeks, I believe there’s approximately 3,500 for members. And I just don’t think the ratio 3,504 members and 650 spots. I think that’s just too many spots. I just think that’s too many spots for the amount of members that there are. Dave, Dave. Well, you gotta know.

I gotta know if I’m part of the [02:57:00] problem or not. I got to hear your, I got to hear you breaking me down. Well, you gave pizza, you gave Pete the honest assessment of himself. I got to know if I’m part of the problem. No, you’re you would, I, I still owe you a long conversation. And Jonathan, since I wasn’t on any of the other 395 podcasts on the other station, but rumor has it.

You guys don’t hold a lot back when, uh, the podcasts go. And I mean this from the bottom of my heart, dude, I, this is what I’ve been meaning to say to you, since you burst, found the scene. And you’re the most talented person that I’ve seen in this marketplace and the time that I’ve been on the scene. And I absolutely hope from the bottom of my heart, that the pain, the anguish and the bitterness that I’ve dealt with with people that have defriended me been nice to me and then turn their backs on me later over the years.

I hope to God, it doesn’t happen to you did. [02:58:00] Okay. So much, so much to say there, but I’ll stick with the simple, you know, his ego is big enough. He doesn’t need you to tell him that bit about how special he is. He’s going to be insufferable for the next week. Hey, you know what though? I had that, I had that problem, Pete, you know, you heard, you heard some of the conversations on this is I can make a private show on this 20 year anniversary of the NHC.

Um, Come on. Where’s the laugh I gave a chuckle. I gave a chocolate, well, one thing for sure. I know that it, uh, at one point, uh, I, at one point there’s no question I had the best. Speech and toured history. I have a feeling that’s going to be surpassed this year. I was going to ask about that. I know Dave multiple players have changed their flights since you won the tour to be around for the awards banquet in anticipation of what you will say when you get up there, have you given it any thought yet?

[02:59:00] Has this conversation to this point been any kind of preview? Uh, may, might we get a preview now? You’re just going to have to wait with bated breath.

There’s the lap you were looking for. You got, you got me in the belly that time. I want to spend the rest of our time today, Dave, unless you have, I’ll give you another chance to, if there’s any particular pressing issue you want to get off your chest. Cause I want to make sure you have a chance to be heard in full today.

And then I want to pivot the conversation to talk a little bit more specifically about how you approach this run of yours strategically, too. Uh, to, to have the result that you did, if you did anything special to look, to get those number ones, as opposed to the twos and threes. But before we get down to the nitty-gritty of tournament strategy, is there anything else that you’d like to use, uh, our time together to talk about in terms of industry issues?

You asked the question first and I had the answer to the question and it’s a perfect dovetail into what you’re [03:00:00] talking about. Jason beam, who has moments of sheer brilliance, the BME awards are amazing. You wrote a blog last week about racing and poker. All I’m going to say is there’s a couple of things I’ve learned from four.

Poker from horse racing. And there’s a whole lot of strategic thinking that I’ve learned from poker that I’ve taken into horse racing. I would just point people in the direction of finding that Jason being blog. There’s a real lot to digest there real lot to take in. I think there’s a lot to be learned that there’s a lot from poker strategy and what’s going on in the world of poker that can be taken into the world of horse racing tournaments.

Funny enough, Jason is already booked to be our guest ahead of this year’s beamy awards on Friday’s show. So you’re, you’re helping us. We have a little production meeting in the middle of the show. I’ll make my notes and make sure to get Jason talking about [03:01:00] that. How about from a handicapping point of view, Dave, what information are you using at this point?

What were you looking at to help fuel your run in terms of data? I have always been an old school DRF guy. Um, and that’s pretty much basically what I use. There’s I have found one public handicapper on the New York circuit whose name I’m not going to give away. Who’s just tremendous. And I have 40 years of handicapping.

I’ve never followed a public handicapper and I read this guy’s analysis of the races every day as New York is the one track. The one circuit that I pay attention to on a semi reasonable basis. Um, I am an optics subscriber. It’s still very much a work in progress for me, but I’m pretty much an old school racing forum guy.

And, uh, I there’s, you know, I’ve been asked the [03:02:00] question a number of times over the last few weeks what’s changed. What are you doing? Tell me what button to press. How do I forget? It’s it doesn’t quite work like that. And, uh, it’s just, I mean, there’s just been a bit, a lot of basic handicapping and then I’ve had some run.

Good. There’s no, there’s no magic potion. There’s no, you know, no. You know, no beads, no, you know, no halo over the head. It’s just good old fashioned, just handicapping. And you know, there’s some strategies that you can use is live bankroll tournaments that you can’t use in. Especially online tournaments where all the races and you’re making the same size bats and everybody’s playing the same races.

So, um, not to give too much away. And I don’t intend on giving too much away today. Um, but poker tournaments, they usually go to the more [03:03:00] aggressive players. And live backroll tournaments are more often going to go to the more aggressive players like I Garrett, scuba, and then I’ll let him keep winning.

The big bankroll tournaments is as long as he lets me keep winning a small backhoe. You’re you’ve chopped it up that way. The X Derby Wars crew has chopped it up. Uh, in those terms, maybe we’ll let Marshall, maybe we’ll let Marshall Graham one, one, one. One day he’s been right there. He’s been right there in the past.

I know, I know. I know. Are you more selection oriented in your handicapping when it comes to these live bankroll tournaments where you’ve thrived or are you more value oriented or would you describe your approach as a blended one? Definitely blended sheltered towards value. Uh, you know, in at least three of the five concepts that I won.

I had no [03:04:00] idea who I was going to be betting during the day of the races. And there’s at least one of those days that I didn’t pick up the form until I got to the track. I’m just basically just, just, we just winging it. The one at the one at the metal lands is the one I, I did not do any free race. I know pre-race.

Nope, no prep. And how did you let’s talk about that specific tournament? So you go there, you’ve done no work. And what pools did you end up participating in? What can you give us about how you go from walking in to walking out a winner? You work backwards, you know, what am I, what’s my target. What am I trying to get to?

What’s the best way for me to get there. I mean, that’s, that’s any tournament, but even more specifically in a live bankroll tournament. And you know, in generally in five bankroll tournaments, there’s a couple of ways you can get to the number. You can either make a bet. To give you a bank roll and then you have ammo to [03:05:00] fire for the rest of the day, or you just use the, you know, you use the money in your bank roll to Baton, uh, you know, pretty much all in, at the start, you know, uh, minimums.

Those are the other guys’ problems. Worry about those later. So being aggressive right from the beginning. And which pools are you typically targeting? Uh, usually in those one pools, you know, sometimes now having said that I think the metal lands tournament was restricted to wind place and show if I remember correctly, but I thought the Hawthorne tournament, which is a total free for all, you know, one of them, I won with a super fact, uh, in a wind win-back one of them I won with a trifecta.

Uh, and it was actually a trifecta, exact combination player. I played a one horse on top, a cold exact, uh, and then I played some horses second with a horse finishing third and the horse finished [03:06:00] third and hit the trifecta. But, uh, you know, I’m just, you know, whatever it takes. There’s no one way to get it done, especially live.

That’s the beauty of live bank. Well, tournaments of proper live bankroll tournaments is the freedom, the freedom of choice. And, um, and then a tournament where everybody’s not doing the same thing. You can do things to differentiate yourself from everybody else. In that instance where you use the exact and the trifecta in the same race, why did you do that?

What was the thought process behind dividing the money into the two pools? Basically, I want it on my, my thought on the race was the Chad Brown horse was going to win at eight to five. Like chatter Brown horses always seemed to do it Saratoga. And the Brendan wall’s horse coming in from Ellis was going to run well.

And it was going to be the Chad Brown horse winning and the Brendan wall’s horse finishing second or third. And, you know, I [03:07:00] wanted to give myself. Is much opportunity under the scenario that I painted out. If it, you know, to give myself. If the horse wins. If I get the cold, exactor great at the cold exact that comes in.

And if I get separated, then I hopefully will find one of the three or four horses that I use. I get a horse to run second, and it was to didn’t have it ran second in that particular instance. Got it done. So I’m just trying to give myself the idea of a contest is not, you know, not to make mistakes and to give yourself as much opportunity under the rules of the contest to win.

And that’s, you know, as a tournament player, that’s my job is to put myself in the best. Positioned the wedding, give myself the best chance to win. And that’s essentially with the strategy that, that hopefully that’s what I’m doing. It sounds to me like part of it also is being able to express your opinion in the most [03:08:00] elegant way.

If you can bet when you don’t want to bet an exact, if you can bet an exact exactly. You don’t want to bet a trifecta trying to manage the level of difficulty to some degree, is that part of it? Oh, it’s a huge part of it. You want to get there the easiest way possible? You know, sometimes you could argue, you’re trying to get the 12 docs, just spending 11 to one shot to win.

You make your 12 X boom. It’s over. So, I mean, there’s a lot of different ways to skin that cat, but like I say, it’s, it’s just a matter of working backwards. What am I trying to get to? And then of course, if you get to that number, you can you’ll have on occasion. As I did in the last two tournament wins.

You might have any games you’re getting, you’re going to get to the end game. You’re going to get to the last price and you’re going to have to, you know, go through the decision-making processes and make the right choice. And hopefully you’re making the decisions for all the right reasons. Dave, I wanted to ask you your opinion, just like kind of an [03:09:00] overrated, uh, handicapping angle or a handicapping idea or product, whether it’s.

Whether it’s, you know, workout reports or pace figures or, or, uh, blinkers off, or just something that, that most people subscribe to that you don’t. I think a lot matters is the problem I do flick occasionally workouts matter, occasionally blinkers matter, Lasix matters or breeding matters or bias matters or pace scenarios matters.

It’s just a question of, you know, that’s. We all got into this game because we enjoyed the challenge of solving these puzzles that we see in past performance lines, which look like hieroglyphics to most other people. The one thing. That’s overrated to me when it comes to point tournaments, especially tournaments like the NHC is, you know, having, making your decisions the night before having a list of horses when you go [03:10:00] downstairs.

It’s I just don’t think that works. You have to, you know, for a tournament like the NAC, obviously you have to have a be prepared. You have to have an outline. You have to have a sketch of what might happen, but, um, Having your conclusion drawn the night before I would, I would put that probably is. The head of the list.

No, I’m gonna, I’m going to go down and there’s 10 optional races and these are six of my optional horses. I’ve watched these horses. They all had bad trips. Last time. I don’t care what the odds are. I don’t care what the bias is. I don’t care what everything else is. I love this horse that I’ve been waiting for this horse.

So I’m going to play it. I think that’s as big of a folly as any particular angle. What does preparation mean for you in a big event? It sounds like, obviously in the example of the metal lands, if it’s very straightforward, only a set amount of races, you don’t really need to prep much at all [03:11:00] beforehand.

But what does being prepared mean to you? If it’s not shortlisting horses, it means having the past performances, which in my cases, the DRF doctored up with. Everything that I referred to is pertinent information that I want to see jump off the form. Blinkers Lasix trainer changes, geldings, um, main specials in debating claiming for the first time.

Um, although, you know, if they, you know, key re you know, key races, Just getting my racing form. All the information that I want is, you know, if there is a horse with a, a good optics note, I’m trying to write the optics note. So I have all the information that I need to make the decision in a relatively quick decision in the form in front of me.

I want to know, you know, I have an idea in my mind at this stage [03:12:00] of my life. You know, I love maiden special waits on the turf. I prefer grass racing to dirt racing. I don’t like cheap sheep, dirt racing. So I know the races that I’m likely to go in and not to give away any. Great secrets. You know, I’ll be concentrating on aqueduct Tampa and Gulf stream.

Uh, the tracks that I’ll know the most about going into the NHC. So I’ll give those facts more of a look. Uh, you know, I’ll look at, uh, maidens special waits at the fairgrounds or, uh, Oak lawn or at Santa Anita. And I’ll have an idea of. Where the field sizes are big, where the races that seem likely to create prices are.

And like I say, have an overview about how the day’s going to shape out. And the hardest thing for me to do at, during a tournament, like the NHC has managed my. You know, when is the time to fire? How many bullets do you leave at various times? [03:13:00] But, uh, you don’t have them, you know, you’re going to have some ideas.

They have horses that you, white horses that jump out after your horses that are potential place. But I, I very much am dead set against, uh, you know, making decisions the night before and really being married to them. I want to pause on the turf idea because that’s the exact opposite of the opinion that Jonathan has a spoused many times on these airwaves where he does not like turf racing because he perceives it’s too much about trips and not enough about being able to, he has a selection oriented player, wants to kind of be able to.

Pick winners and leave it. There is your preference for turf racing, Dave, as simple as the other side of the coin, you want the fact that in a turf race that six to one is more likely to be able to beat those horses at the shorter end of the OD spectrum, or is there more to it? I think there’s more factors involved in surf [03:14:00] racing.

Um, I think there’s more art to handicap than turf racing. There’s more creativity to, uh, handicapping turf racing. And over the years, most handicappers have, don’t get a lot of help. They don’t get a lot of coaching, you know, horse racing, tournament players, you know, there’s literally nothing out there other than two books that I contributed to, but I was very lucky 40 years ago, uh, summer of 1980, 38 years ago, 39 years ago that I learned at the feet.

Of a turf handicapping genius in New York, his name’s Maurice well-known him served floor clubhouse back in the day. Um, and I literally charted his exact is, and I he’s the guy that I learned a lot about handicapping from and he [03:15:00] loved it. New York turf racing. And, um, I think a lot of that has to do with Maurice, my love of turf racing.

And, um, it happened, it has to be what, you know, we also, as human beings, we’re natural. And we tend to go back to things that we’ve had success within. I’ve have had success with turf racing and most specifically maiden turf racing over the years. And you tend to go back to what you’ve been successful with Jonathan or Paul Mathias, and they’re successful with dirt racing.

They liked dirt racing. Why shouldn’t they better racing? There’s plenty of opportunity. It’s a big wide world. Open out there, back to the lessons you learned from Maurice on the third floor, back in the day 38 years ago, is there maybe one lesson that pops to mind that’s as relevant today as it was back then?

Absolutely. Don’t make bad butts. Don’t take, don’t take, [03:16:00] sorry, Dick. Don’t take the worst of it. Take the best of it. It’s easier said than done. It’s much easier said than done, and it’s still a fight that I’m working on all the time. Lack of passion for the sport actually at this point, makes it easier for me to make those decisions.

And I do know this most of us that bet on horses have in some shape or form a slight DGN side. How it comes up sometimes. Who knows? All I know is this one thing that is positive about my lack of passion for racing at this point is I do not de Jen very much at all on the game anymore. Thankfully.

Handicapping is a fight. It’s a fight. Dave  has been winning this season on the NHC tour. He is the NHC tour champion. Thank you, Dave so much for taking time out to join us [03:17:00] today on the, in the money players, pod. Thanks for having me. Um, and it’s just. It’s surreal, man. I don’t know how it happened and that’s going to do it for this edition of the, in the money players podcast.

Thank you to Jonathan kitchen. Thank you to Dave Godfrey. And most of all, thanks to all of you for listening. Keep. Those messages coming, check us out in the money Please go ahead and subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud, wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a review that helps out as well.

We’ve still got that survey up on the blog as well. Check it out in the money We will be back on Friday with Jason beam. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. May you win all your photos? [03:18:00]

 Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. Hello and welcome to the, in the money. Yes. The, in the money players podcast, this is show number six. It is Friday, January 11th, 2019. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in the Brooklyn bunker. Once again, we have a great. Show lined up for you today.

But before I introduce the guests and get to that, I just have to say a lot of you out there probably realize that I did say the wrong name of the show. Last time I was kind of surprised that only about half a dozen people. Um, [03:19:00] pointed that out to me. I thought you guys liked me more than that. And more people would have said, Hey, Pete, you may want to remember that you’re not affiliated with those old letters anymore.

You’re the, in the money players podcast, Eric, Bilich the first one to point it out. A few other messages came in. I will surely make that mistake again. Now, granted, I had a lot better excuse making that mistake when we were doing a live show. So with the editing, it’s really like. Double my bed, but Hey, these things happen.

I’m now going to bring in the regular co-host of this program. He is on the planet, Texas, but I don’t believe he’s in any of his usual locations. I think he’s pulled over on the side of a highway somewhere. If I understood that correctly, I’m talking about the people’s champion. Jonathan kitchen, JK.

What’s up on PTF? No, I’m I’m at home. I, uh, I am, um, I’m heading over to Houston, the Prince of keen lens, having like a, a shower of some sorts of couple of shower. I’m going by myself. [03:20:00] But, uh, I’ll, you know, I I’m going to be his date, even though he’s the one who’s, we’ll figure it out. So I’m heading over to Houston today.

How about this? Isn’t it kind of a little bit your bad too. I mean, I’m here, I’m recording. I’m trying to put the run of the show together. I’m doing all this stuff. When I say the wrong name of the show at the beginning, can’t you help a brother out. Pizza. I got bad news for you. I guess it’s a good time to tell you.

I don’t normally listen to you unless I have to. I think that’s true. You did that. There was also an occasion on the show. Last time. I almost made fun of you where you repeated verbatim. Like a little point I had just made, I think it was about your friend trophy, chasers time form us figure and using almost the same words than it is sometimes.

Almost like you don’t listen, but that’s okay. You listen when it counts. I do my best. And we’re going to bring in returning to the show, one of our most popular guests that we’ve ever had on the old show. And hopefully we’re going to have just as much success on the new show, given out [03:21:00] winners, talking about the interesting place that is the intersection of the breeding business and the bedding business from Windstar.

Sean Tougaloo. Sean, how are you today? I’m doing quite well, Pete, and thank you for having me back on, uh, regardless of the letters that you use. So, uh, I appreciate it. And as always, it’s always. Quite enjoyable to have a good conversation with you and, and talk to you. And, and, um, obviously don’t, don’t worry about giving kitchen a little bit of ribbing.

He deserves it every once in a while, and I hope he does enjoy his couples shower that he’s going to, it sounds like it does sound like I can see, is there going to be tea and cucumber sandwiches? JK, you clearly don’t know the princess. Caitlin very well. There’s going to be wings and the football games going to be all.

It does sound like. J K though. I think what you need to do, though, if you come in, you need to, are, are you involved in any of the planning for it? Cause you could come in with, with one of those good games, [03:22:00] kind of like what smelling, what kind of chocolate candy bar or something you could, you could bring something to the table there for them.

I could do, I should do something I’ll I will do that. I have a three hour drive over to Houston. I’ll I’ll be sure to come up with some kind of a. Some kind of fun shower game. Oh my goodness. J K. You mentioned that the games are going to be on. We’re going to do a very quick diversion into the NFL, just because it seemed to me.

And I know Sean, as somebody who, uh, took us as a guest to the Windstar suite up in Cincinnati to watch a Bengals game that your NFL simpatico to. Is it just me or does the NFC chalk. Parlay seemed like an interesting wager this weekend. I think if you take both of these home favorites, you can get something on the order of about three to five on two teams that I just don’t really see losing in the Rams [03:23:00] and the same JK.

What do you, what do you, you love the chalk? Like no one else. What do you think. No, I completely agree. I think the Rams and the saints both coming in off of buys, I think those buys are a huge advantage. Um, when you’re in the playoffs are coming in off of a, by, uh, there’ll be arrested and prepared. I think both of them will win.

Um, and I actually think the favorites on the other side will probably win too. I’m not a big Colts fan. Uh, and I, and I’ve, I’ve obviously had a big thing against the chargers all year, uh, to Jake. Jake’s a little upset about that. The Prince of Kima needs a big charters guy. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, I think all the favorites are going away, especially, especially the NFC.

Sean, I w I’ve never talked to you if you ever, uh, you know, when you’re out in Vegas, if you, if you wager on the NFL at all, do you look at it at, just as a fan or does bedding occasionally mainly as a, uh, as a fan? I I’m, I’m a very, as far as sports go, a very periphery, uh, fan. Um, so kind of know what’s going on.

[03:24:00] Couldn’t tell you everybody who’s on the, on every team, but, um, Periphery kind of, you know, you catch the occasional game. Don’t bet on it too often, maybe something during the super bowl. But I do have to say from the football I have seen, um, new Orleans does look like the team, I would think has the best chance of, uh, running the table, especially they get to play in the Superdome.

Um, do they get the home field advantage throughout? I that’s, I wasn’t quite sure, but yeah, they get, they get, they get it throughout. Yeah. So I think it will go through new Orleans. Um, Philadelphia. I mean, they got a quarterback, you know, When they, when they went and, you know, I mean, how do you get some of those salty, uh, geldings that show up a year in year out?

And they went when it matters. So they got Nick folds. So we won’t have a better moment on the show all year, then Sean, to go comparing Nick falls to a salty gelding,

skip over to AFC, which I know a little bit better because I am a, uh, painful, uh, [03:25:00] bill fan. And, uh, new England has been quite dominant. And I, I, you know, I just think you’re always going to have to dethrone new England no matter what, but you’re good stock, horse racing, gentlemen, in earnest. I have a list of many, many questions for you, Sean, but I know there’s one question about, uh, just about his favorite horse in training that J K is going to ask.

We’ll let him start with that. Where is the big horse? Yoshida when will we see him next? You know, Shida? He is, uh, at patient park. And he is on target for the Pegasus turf, which, uh, we think will be right up his alley. His first race back last year of 2018 was a great one. When, and so we’re bringing it back here in 2019, he’s a horse that’s going to, um, have a lot of options throughout the year.

He is, uh, uh, now five-year-old, it’s a grade one winner on both services. So, um, gives us a lot of options of horse. We’re really excited about. Uh, [03:26:00] fantastic pedigree. He’s going to be a great styling prospect when he comes home to us. So, um, but he’s going to get 2019 kick-started everything goes as planned, uh, on the Pegasus turf while we’re talking Pegasus, you guys have some other runners in there as well.

You mind giving us a little rundown, Sean, of, uh, who’s going to run where and what you think their prospects are at this time. Pegasus. They actually has possibility of being extremely busy, which is good. It’s always fun having runners on those, on those big days. And, uh, you know, package this day is, is this is year three and I think it’s fantastic.

You know, you have multiple large races. Cause I think that’s what, what, uh, the big days are all about is being able to showcase horses in each division and, uh, having a turf race, uh, you know, in America where turf racing is becoming a much more accepted, uh, division and much, a very exciting division. Um, having a race that is there’s almost equal, you know, I think the horses that will show up in the, in the Pegasus turf race, [03:27:00] you would say are as exciting as the horses that are showing up in the dirt race in the hole.

So, um, That those days are quite crucial for, for breeding, for racing, for, for everything. So, um, to be involved in those days is quite exciting, but, uh, audible has come out of his race. Well, he’s working steadily. The target for him would be the dirt race where, uh, he had an undefeated record there until he got beat a nostril in the, uh, in the last race.

And I don’t like making excuses for horses and it’s not my job to do that anyway. So, um, But, you know, the track was, was soupy and he had had to go wide and there was, you know, I think, you know, they’re not the layoff nice progression. And so he has every right to, to run back to form. And then a horse that we’ve always been extremely high on was lightly raced who’s by one of our premier stallions, uh, copper town by spice town.

He is going through Ron and the. Undercard on, hopefully in the Fred, I believe it’s the fed who birthed the mile race. So he’s, we have, um, ran [03:28:00] last time out in square mile. Um, so I think that was just for short fit lifetime starting, you know, had been off a long layoffs and just about ran a track record at Keeneland on first off the layoff and kinda missed the break a little bit.

And, and, uh, you know, maybe, maybe bounced a little bit out of that first run, but he’s gonna come back. He’s been breathing extremely well from what I can see down it. Um, I’ll beat you down. So, uh, those three are our very exciting horses that we get to have on Pegasus day. You mentioned that field for the Pegasus turf, to be perfectly honest with all the craziness going on in life.

I haven’t been following probably as closely as I should. Who else is expected to show up there to oppose the grade? Have, have you heard much, Jonathan? No, I actually haven’t heard a lot. I would imagine there’s gotta be something from, from overseas. Um, But I, I actually, haven’t heard very many at all, but we know what that’s kind of what’s happened with the Pegasus for whatever reason, I guess, maybe just because it’s new and it’s conception.

That’s like, it feels like you never really know who’s running [03:29:00] in it until like the week or two before. I was caught out a little bit on UK TV last night when I was being asked by Darryl Williams on sky racing, the new channel to preview the Pegasus. And I, you know, I know who the top two are in the market in that, in that big race.

And I, I kind of flubbed it from there and punted the question, which I always feel bad about doing w I do love the concept of the Pegasus turf, but I think, I hope they give that race time to grow. It’s such a tough time for the English and Irish train horses. They’re just not at a place in their cycle where I would imagine there’s going to be all that much awareness to be shipping over for the first year.

But I feel like if they promote this event, In the UK and in Ireland, there’s a chance that by year three, they’re coming up with some sort of special program to send over a couple of horses. It’s a lot of money. [03:30:00] And I do think you could get that kind of participation. I’m just not sure if you’re going to get it right off the bat, but we’ll, we’ll see what happens with that.

I will be over in the UK on TV. Doing those races on the new channel. I’m really excited about. That should be a very fun opportunity. Where should we go next, Sean, I want to ask you about one, one quick thing on, on that Pegasus turf though. And just sitting here thinking is, I know we focus so much on the, on the, um, On the, uh, the Ireland and England turf horses.

But, um, I believe there, you know, if you could think, you know, a lot of those, some of those horses would go over there to Hong Kong and Hong Kong, you know, for a $7 million race back to Gulf stream. And then you got another good guy. You got a nice, um, gap there that you can train up to the Dubai race. And there should be a nice little circuit where you think some of those top class turf horses, um, could start making that kind of a little winter program.

I [03:31:00] was thinking about it. It hurt a horse earlier, and I hadn’t seen him on the work tab. And, uh, but what about bulletin is, is he gonna be back for his three-year-old year or did he have a little setback? No, he, uh, it’s a, it’s a program that, that we, we implement quite a bit here is, um, you know, we, we like to focus on the spring and summer with the three-year-olds, especially with, uh, with the dirt horses, um, and you know, Bolton is a horse that we implemented as well as a horse called preamble.

He’s, uh, they’re both on the same program. They both had really good, uh, two year old form. They both ran twice. Uh, they’re both undefeated, but they’re both probably not to turn horses bulletin right now has, has, has been a turf horse. And, you know, as far as spots there on the winter time, there’s there’s few that kind of really, uh, You know, that are something that you have to have in a stallions.

Resume or, or that have to [03:32:00] be running that by running there, you might compromise, you know, down the road, like the Woody Stevens horses, that, which is now a great one, you know, the, the, uh, the Allen Jerkins, it’s seven for a long race for three-year-olds and then turf racing. I mean, now with the way Ascot falls, um, and, and really the emphasis on having runners there as well.

Um, that would be the primary target with Bolton. So he’s getting ready to sit back. I think within the next two weeks I saw him train here yesterday. He looks fantastic. He’s growing, he’s put weight and muscle on. Um, couldn’t be doing any better. You know, we kicked him out. He got 30 days in the paddock.

Um, he got the recharge, the batteries a little bit and, uh, hopefully we can, uh, have a lot of fun with him coming up. So. Very exciting. Very cool. Interesting. The way that ask it is now on the lips and the minds of so many in the USA breeding industry. Cool to know when you think about it, I mean, they’ve got, they’ve got national live coverage on NBC sports.

Five days, six days. We don’t, there’s not, we [03:33:00] don’t have a horse, a horse meat in the U S that gets five days national coverage in the rail. So, um, you know, that’s a, that’s a pretty, that’s a pretty big deal. So. Especially, I think when with, with the advance of turf race in America, you know, having that Mark, you know, uh, Yoshida only gotta be the length and a half over there.

Yes. Last year against the, you know, some of the best milers on turf over there. So, um, when you can put one in the stallion barn that, that one over there, Mark, he raised that everybody in the world paying attention to that’s a, that’s a pretty big deal too. Absolutely have to talk about the triple crown prospects this year.

Uh, not necessarily to win the entire triple crown, but horses on the triple crown trail. What kind of an update can you give us about these new three-year-olds? Um, well, we, uh, we have one, uh, probable one, the great one last time out. He just had his first work back, uh, after winning the race in Los Alamitos, he’s three, two and three.

He’s [03:34:00] already broken the 99 to buy our speed secrets two year old. So, um, he’s out of, uh, an APN demerit. So he should, uh, absolutely relish. He had a distance he’s doing well. Um, I haven’t heard what race they’re they’re discussing, but, um, No Santa Nita, Oaklawn something along those lines probably be earmarked.

And I believe they would plan on probably run them twice, leading up to the Derby. Uh, and the other horse that I have high hopes for that isn’t, doesn’t have quite the resume with a horse called global campaign that Stanley Huff hats. We own partnership with Sagamore racing. Um, he won, it was last weekend.

It was a horse that we bred. Uh, unfortunately we lost the mayor, but she wasn’t, she’s also out of an ATN D uh, Herself. And it was a Clayborne Brad mare, but, uh, so far this is their third horse to race. The other two are Sonic mule. Who’s a stakes winner and both yours, who’s a multiple grade one winner. So this is our third full or not, [03:35:00] unfortunately her last, but he’s by Kerlin.

And, uh, he’s a horse that, um, you know, it was immature at the sale and, um, So we stayed in with Sagamore and they’re great partners and Stanley Huff’s a fantastic trainer. And, uh, he won last week. Like it was pretty impressive. He got an eight, six buyer there. And I just thought, when, if you watch this replay and you watch them going around the turn of the years for prick to the sky going around there, and it was, he was just having fun.

So, uh, very excited, you know, that horse has just pure raw town. He’s a very exciting horse. You know, he got started a little late, but, uh, You don’t want to compare them to everybody, but I guess the Apollo curse is over as well. So maybe he’s a horse that we can have some fun with here coming up, Caitlin sales, just wrapping up.

Uh what’s what’s some of the fun stuff that happened for Windstar during the sale or, and, uh, what, you know, when the sales kind of starting to pick up this year, what are some of the, uh, you know, the younger sires you guys are excited about that are, that are starting to be [03:36:00] well-received. Yeah, well, we bought, uh, we jumped in and bought, uh, two very nice mayors at the sale.

Uh, I bought a quality road Philly that, uh, was great for places, very excited about her. And then I bought eight Stuart humor. Um, Philly, it was in full the quality road out of the, uh, Blackwood consignment. And, uh, they had, uh, quite the selection. Mr. Shield unfortunately passed away. They had, uh, first part of his dispersal and he had, uh, he had some very, very good breeding stock.

And, uh, we bought a young story to humor, Marin and distorted humor himself. It’s just, he’s a breed shaping. Uh, broodmare sire. So, uh, you can’t have enough young storage, humor, merits special ones that were great stakes, whereas it was run. So we jumped in there. Um, sail, I believe I haven’t read the full figures, but I think I saw a headline that it’s that record.

So one of many cells that have set records over the last 12 months. So sales Marine is quite strong and healthy and there’s a lot of action [03:37:00] out there and saw a lot of faces and, you know, got to chat about horses. Um, We we’ve got four horses this year that have first two year olds hitting the racetrack.

And, um, so you know, some people from Ocala start start, came up, look at some of the short Yealands here and start running them. And, you know, they’re starting to breathe a couple of there and starting to figure out what sales they’re going to start going through here the spring. And, uh, so you know, you start to pick the brain a little bit.

And, um, so I’ve heard some really good things about all four of ours. Um, Carpet DM has a $1.6 million to gold himself. He, uh, he was a grade one winning two-year-old grade one, winning three-year-old. Um, he’s remained at 25,000 throughout the first four years of his young career. And his yearlings were very, very nice at the, uh, at the sales.

So hearing good things about them. Um, he’s probably also a horse that you’re going to see more of his. Uh, two year olds probably being pointed, but the people who bought them at sales, the majority would be pointing them [03:38:00] for the races. So either horse would be probably won’t really hear a whole lot about until, um, you know, middle of the season people point pointing their nice stock to, to the premiere mates like Saratoga and, and, and Del Mar and Ellis park.

You know, they’re too racist. It’s really expanded over the years. Um, then we also have constitution who I’m hearing really good things out of Ocala him. And commissioner two horses that really like had multiple people come up to me and telling me how much they liked there. And they can’t wait to take them to the sales and make sure you come see them.

And so, so that’s really exciting, you know, constitution with us. Do a grade one winner by tap it out of a fantastic Stuart humor mayor, um, ran a one 11 buyer when he wanted to Dawn was undefeated when he, when he won the Florida Derby. Um, so he has every right to be an outstanding sire. Then commissioner was a home bred for us that, uh, was just an awesome fall.

Austin, the airline, uh, Had about the two year old, had the talent to win at [03:39:00] Saratoga, to two-year-old and then being by APN D out of, uh, one of our blue hand mayors, um, he went on, he only lost my darn nostril there in the, in the, in the Belmont phone, less, but came back and went to pinnacle special Hawthorne, gold cops, very prestigious races, and, uh, just an absolute, a specimen.

And, uh, the other horse we have is, is, is by more than right. Daredevil. He was an excellent two year old. Yeah. Champagne. Stakes with a one Oh seven buyer fashion and uncle Mo union racks and premiere stallions. So we’re very excited for him to ground 97 when he broke his maiden first out of the box, um, more than ready himself is one of the best tires we have here in America.

So, um, all four stallions have every right to be very successful horses. And we’re very excited for, for the year ahead of us with those four. That’s a great overview of what’s going on on the breeding side with Windstar, but I also want to ask you about WinStar stable mates and [03:40:00] Windstar stablemates racing, Sean, what’s going on with that program.

Yeah. So it’s, uh, we we’ve had, um, a program called WinStar stablemates and it’s really been around since very early on. And Windstar Windstar itself came around in about 2001. And so everything really WinStar is kind of, you know, Going to a wave of expansion and change and, you know, trying to be out in the forefront of everything.

And so it was kind of started with a little fan fan group and it’s kind of expanded to where, you know, um, it’s a membership. Group and you can choose your levels. And, and we have events at the farm. We have events at Saratoga. We have events at church Hill, uh, 30. I know we do something on therapy. So kind of something where you can kind of be part of, um, Windstar, you know, not everybody can, can be involved at, at the [03:41:00] top level of our game.

And it’s, it’s a lot of fun to be up there. I mean, that’s, that’s you get to win races and everything. So what we’ve done is we’ve expanded that now into a racing syndicate partnership. And, uh, last year was our first year. I think we won five races when we want a stakes race, um, with a Philly called well humor.

Who’s have to great one horse and we have her two year old, uh, backend. This crew, but basically it’s a lease program. Uh, it’s, it’s made up of 15 Phillies and expanded from, we had 10 last year, we had 15, we have 15 this year. Uh, it’s a nice mix. You get, you get some very, you get older, at least that are, that are in training and going.

Uh, we have a four year old called the bounty joy who was with Rudolph Rosette. She’s two for three lifetime. The only horse that beat her was talking her to me when she ran first time out at fairgrounds. So that horse was great one place. So we’re very excited for this Philly. She, uh, she’s a beautiful filly by quality road.

Uh, She’s unbelievable, but, uh, we think she could be, you know, a great stakes level type Philly. [03:42:00] Um, We got another five three-year-old fillies that are just turned three that are they’re very close to running or had just one pioneer, the Nile that’s half to grade, one winner. She just won first time out for Steve ASMIS and a Philly called last dance was the half sister too, to spite her she’s she’s, uh, she’s probably about a month away.

She’s uh, the reports on her from Belmont, you know, Philly’s with, uh, Rudolph Rosette, Phillies with, uh, Todd Pletcher. So you, you know, by joining the wins, we’re doing open enrollment now till the end of the month. Um, and for $6,800, you get to buy a share. It’s made up of a hundred shares. It’s a, it’s a year lease affiliate to get based off of us for the year.

And, and we got this year, we got half sisters to improbable is going to be running in there. We hopefully have this there’s two, um, two arrest. We’ve got half sisters, a good Samaritan. Uh, we’ve got first folds out of greatest stakes when he merits the whole appraisal of the Bloodstock involved in this group of 15, Phillies is $2 million, [03:43:00] $6,800.

You get to be part owner of this, these horses for a year. You get, um, you get. Well, if you’re at the races, if you’re at Saratoga where a lot of these fillies, hopefully you’re going to be running later in the spring. If you’re there. And you’re part of this group, you get, you get seats that day, you get paddock passes.

We do events up there once a year during the sales at breakfast on the backside, go look at all the Phillies. Um, you know, and then there’s events, obviously during therapy and stuff. So it’s, it’s not only do you get to be part of like the ownership group of the Phillies, which have their own silks or Virgin of Windstar, silks, or black with this gold.

Goldstar. They’re fantastic. Um, but you got to be part owner of these affiliates and then you also get, uh, throughout the year, some good events to come down to Lac Kingston. If you’ve never been there, it’s a great little city, you know, Saratoga’s off fantastic. Um, you know, breeders, copters, there’s always some things going on.

So it’s part of, uh, you know, for, for a really small fee to be part of. Um, you know, the top level of the game and see [03:44:00] exactly how it works. You know, some people might be thinking about doing this at a higher level. This is a great way to figure it out. You get to see all the bills, you get to find out what’s going on, but you don’t have the huge financial risk.

So if it’s something that you might be interested in, Call us up and, and it’s, it’s something, you know, if you just try it out, I think we’re going to have a really big year. I love the fact that we have older affiliates and two year olds now last year were very two-year-old heavy. So, uh, there were some kind of quiet periods, but now that the staples gotten a little bit older and we’ve gone through, you know, the.

The hiccups and, and doing the program for the first year, uh, this year we’re pretty excited about, and, and the Bloodstock is it’s as good as you can find that anywhere. Sean, you said, you said 6,800, I’ve got 3,500. I need a horse. And even money shot, but I can bet this 3,500 on I’ll have the 7,000, then I’ll join stable mates.

Who are we betting on this weekend? Give us a winner somewhere. Oh, you’re putting me on the spot. Huh? This weekend, maybe [03:45:00] something coming up. You’re you’re excited about. You got to remember the last time on this show. You gave out a, a nice price winner to the listeners. There was a half-brother to Tapper it out there that I heard good things on and a French guy that trains at pace and park has the horse.

I can’t remember exactly what the horse’s name is, but it’s a spikes town. Three-year-old Colt out of appealing, Sophie. Okay. That should be enough to figure it out. JK probably Googling as we speak and might have the answer in a minute, but if not, you know, sometimes. I have the French guy on my stable watch when he runs, when I know about it, there’s another horse.

Um, just, you know, I don’t know how much of a price you’re getting on, but a horse that, um, I think could be prime for a big year. There is a horse we have called New York central, and he’s going to opening weekend of Oklahoma and he’s on target for, and he’s the horse to keep an eye on this year. I think he gets a chance to jump up and win a big one this year.

All right. Lots of good ideas there. JK April, perhaps you’ll be in on the [03:46:00] Windstar at stablemates racing partnership. Uh, gentlemen, if you’re ready, I think we should move along and talk about some stakes racing this weekend. How’s that sound to you? Let’s do it sounds good to me. All right, let’s move on to Gulf stream park.

We’re going to start off with the ninth race, the tropical turf. We’ve got heart to heart in here. The, the, the. One of my favorites, a horse we’ve been talking about, I think since the very first year of this podcast, one of the first shows ever, I think heart to heart was, uh, among the first five winners ever given out on the old show.

Um, is, I mean, looking at it quickly, he looks like he’s going to be awfully tough to down Sean, as our guest, I’m going to let you go. First is this a case of heart to heart or pass? Or is there something a little more interesting you’re seeing when you look down at these PPS? Well, I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a possible [03:47:00] case of, uh, Of, you know, an older horse just happened, possibly lose a step or, or maybe he just kind of went off for him there for a bit.

And Brian Lynch, who’s shooting the capable trainer. Now hasn’t gone in the right direction. I mean, it worked have is fantastic. So, um, it looks like he’s prime to, to see if, if field war, horse still has it, you know, he’s a 15 time winner. He loves, loves the distance. He loved golf stream. So I mean, if he’s the heart to heart that we know that can run those triple digit buyers and wire fields, which I think the golf course from the little bit I’ve been watching it here in the last week or so I think it’s pretty, pretty handy towards speed favoring.

Um, he’s obviously this. You might be the lone speed. Um, so if you get the nice, easy lead and he he’s the heart, the heart that we all know and love, I think he, he should go gate to wire, but, uh, for some reason, you know, that that ability has, has diminished a little bit. Uh, it leaves it open for, for some other horses, maybe, you know, [03:48:00] Jose RTS and Christoph c’mon and horses stretching out going two turns.

So, uh, that’s one that I find, uh, Little interesting. They’re talking about white flag as a possible alternative for Shawn too, though. Acknowledging the potential superiority of heart to heart who loves the course and might just have that pace advantage to J K. How do you see it? Heart to heart, obviously has the pace advantage and runs well on the court should be loose on the lead.

Uh, the horse that I’m going to try to mess around with a little bit is on the rail Vici, uh, for maker, you know, maker did this last year with hoagie stretching, hoagie out and winning the greatest stakes going two turns on the flat mile down there at Gulf stream. I love the fact that this horse is tactical.

We’ll obviously be able to get his position moving forward should save ground all the way around there. If heart to heart misses a step, this course is going to have a perfect trip and should be able to mow them down. [03:49:00] Uh, if heart to heart is the real heart to heart, he’ll win by four. Those are the only two horses that I need.

So I feel bad. We’ve gotten some great feedback from this listener survey. I’m going to keep it open for a couple more shows by the way. And if you haven’t filled it out yet, I implore you. Please do us a favor. If you like this show and you want to help us out, this is one of the things you can do to help us the most.

On average people are completing it in. Three minutes. And that’s with a lot of people writing long responses for the last question, which we appreciate, but you don’t even need to do. I think you could fly through in two minutes and answer this survey and help us out giving us the demographic info we need going forward.

That survey is pinned to my Twitter. You can also find it at. In the money But the reason I bring this up is because I would say by far the number one piece of feedback we’ve gotten in that freeform question at the bottom is wagering [03:50:00] strategy. People want more on wagering strategy on these Friday shows.

And I apologize because I’m not going to ask. Uh, J K or Sean about wagering strategy. Cause I didn’t prep them for it. Host, fail, hashtag host fail, but going forward, that’s the kind of thing I want to do more of in these Friday segments where we talk about, okay, so everybody thinks this four to five is live and then everybody has one alternative.

Well, how do you try to turn that opinion into money? And I would imagine the answer will involve creatively betting exotics, but again, not going to put feet to the fire JK, unless you have an idea right off the top of your head. Uh, in terms of how you might bet this creatively. No, exactly. Like you said, um, taking some time to, to spend more money on heart, to heart than you are going to spend on a horse like Vici or, or in Sean’s case, um, on, uh, on the Christophe horse white flag.

So it just depends exactly what you think about the other legs, but the basic idea is that you [03:51:00] need to spend more money on the thing that you think is more likely to happen. In your, and generally not necessarily, uh, holding your feet to the fire about this race, Sean, how do you approach it when there’s a big favorite, you know, his life, but you’re not willing to just single and commit to, is there a particular wagering strategy that you employ for the minimal better that I am.

Uh, and not doing it on a day in day out. I would probably in that situation, just pass and sit back and wait. Great answer really. And an underrated answer to one of the tools that we have in our toolbox, the ability to not bet every race. I’m glad you said that. And, and, and one of the reasons. For doing that is, is one of the worst I ever beat.

And it wasn’t a bad beat, but it was one of those where you thought a four to five could get, could not get beat was when, uh, Regal ransom. I can’t, I think it was the castle and he was like four or five. And I put, I put whatever I won that week on them. [03:52:00] His way, his way wired the field. I think Regal ransom ran last and I said, never again, will I got a four to five shot with everything in my pocket?

You touch that stove. It was hot. You don’t touch that stove again. Um, so one of the things about this particular week, I remember this from last year as a host, we talked about hashtag host fail some of my famous mispronunciations. There’s two pretty easy. Stakes to mispronounce this weekend. And this one, it’s not that the Marcia was river is hard in and of itself.

To pronounce, but the way that it gets abbreviated in some places where it’s just like the M R S H and that’s all they give you that there can be a momentary, a synaptic misfire, where I come out with something crazy. But, and there’s one when we get to California that I absolutely butchered last year, but let’s talk about this race that goes as race.

Number 11 at Gulf stream park. J K, where are you in here? No big favorite to lean on. [03:53:00] No, I’m gonna, I’m gonna definitely want to take a look at the workout report on, uh, Lawson. What does that, what are we doing here, Pete Lawson? I would say last seniority. I would, I’d go with the Italian lost seniority.

Okay. There you go French bread. You’re going to Italian bread. Well, I see the G in the end, you know, you lived up there in the Bronx. It gives you a little bit of a hint of how you’re supposed to lock the yard. There you go. There you go. I’m glad we have a linguistic expert on here. I can’t get away from my, my Bronx background.

Uh, not that I ever lived up there, but the family history, I want to go Italian art. So it’s lost in Yar. Is that where you’re going? JK. Well, I’m going to definitely take a look there 189 day layoff. I want to look at the workout report. The last three works were on the turf at, uh, at Palm Meadows. And so that, you know, w can get a little bit tricky.

We talk about it. When the happens on the dirt, when those turf forces are working on the dirt, it can be [03:54:00] misleading. You’re going to know exactly how this one’s coming into the race by looking at the workout report there, uh, the DRF clocker report would be a good place to start. I like to Todd horse, uh, down on the inside, obviously I’m going to pick another horse where I’m going to struggle to pronounce the name, just so that I can, uh, set Pete up.

So say something very mean about me, but I like the fact that this horse is tactical. The same idea. On the maker, horse and the steak earlier, he’s gonna save, she’s gonna save ground down inside. She’ll get a great trip from down in there. She’s tactical enough. As long as, you know, Javier should put her in there, ratios shouldn’t get shuffled back, should be able to save ground when they turn for home, she should have every chance.

Um, so it’s gotta be the one of the seven for me, uh, pending the workout report that the one obviously will probably present more value, uh, for and horses always get bet on the tertiary. I’m not going to overthink it. I’m just going to go Bella vase on the one. Sean, what do you think of this room? You’re hitting a little bit on what Jonathan was talking about was the workouts.

You know, she’s off a little bit of a lay off. [03:55:00] I actually got SBTV is fantastic with these workouts. That’s something that I I’ll go and use that. And I, I believe I saw in the news this week, that Xpress was, was embedding workout videos and. To their ADW platform, not to give you a plug, but that’s, I think that’s really fantastic.

We’re not with DRF anymore. We can plug it. We’re not with DRF anymore. We can plug anybody. So she has up on XP TV, which I think they do a great job. And because Stronick owns golf stream because they don’t say Anita because they own Palm Meadows. We get this, you know, if you use it and you enjoy it and it’s fantastic what they do, but they do a lot of these turf works at

So they got two works up for her. She looks like she’s traveling. Great. Plus in Yar, um, obviously the, the Philly on the rail there that you like, he has, you know, one of the best pedigrees that you’re going to find with the cloak there, but I think Lawson Yar, and this is an angle is. Just the class of the field, uh, [03:56:00] allow these other affiliates are kind of, you know, jumping up integrated stakes.

This Philly’s slightly raised. Several of her races last year were extremely impressive, um, and showed a lot of County talent. I mean the Belmont Oaks. It was one of the best three-year-old turf filly races. You can run it. I mean, that is a premier race. Um, and they’ve done a great job with that day with the Belmont Derby as well.

But her wonder again was, was quite impressive. The day she won at, um, at teen Linde. I mean, I’m sorry. She ran second King Lynn, but that race, that race was a statesman that’s. What’s fun about Kaitlin there in the spring is Twana was. Neil Drysdale Philly. She was awesome. Uh, this Philly was actually the, the talk of the, uh, the paddock last and Yara and then cool beans herself came back and I believe it’s great.

It’s takes place throughout the year. So, um, you know, I just think she’s her running lines, although she doesn’t have as many starts at several these others, she does have that, that proven, graded stakes ability, which some of these other Phillies, uh, although there, they do have [03:57:00] some age advantage on her and toughness.

They just quite, you know, if they have jumped up into the greatest stakes level, they haven’t, haven’t been able to get it done in this Phillies have proven great stakes Philly. You mentioned Laclos Sean. I don’t remember the exactly, but is that the family of winter memories and all those other, she was out of memories of silver, I think.

But is it closely related to that whole group and that the Philippines? Yeah. I mean, it’s, um, it’s obviously one of those, um, families there that, uh, Phillips family at Darby Dan has cultivated for, for many, many events. Generations and, um, but she was the coast after Philly. That that was obviously quite, quite talented.

Um, and it turned into a good room air, but yeah, winter memories was down there on the second day. I remembered the silver is the dam of Lukla. Oh, okay. There you go. They are connected. Yeah. So it’s, you know, it’s one of those, uh, The daughters of one of their foundation mayor. So yeah [03:58:00] know that family, that family on turf is one of the best turf families.

We see, you know, generations and, uh, that’s, Philly’s now, uh, fi five years of age. So these turf horses when they get up there in age and that pedigree and that, that class, and that family comes through, we’re going to win one, one, one point. So, uh, She has every right to be, be right there. I just think loss in yours, just the pure class in the field.

One of the things we love to do when Sean comes on is talk about breeding angles that are useful for horse players. When I came into the game, just as a horse player, you start reading industry news and there’ll be so to my mind at that time, so much breeding info, and I wouldn’t always even fully be able to grasp it.

And. As I’ve gotten further in my development as a horseplayer I realized not only is it interesting and not only is it part of the engine that drives the game, of course, along with the betting dollar, but there is a lot of signal on some interesting stuff you can pick up, that’s going to help you to cash bets.

[03:59:00] A point that Mike Maloney makes embedding with an edge that I agree with is there still seems to be equity in many situations, especially interfaces, but dirt races too, on certain female families. That tends to be extra productive. And when you can find a horse from one of these families, sometimes people will just be betting them off straight numbers, and they might have a little something in hand that you can’t see there in the pages of daily racing forum that can help you cash a bet.

I would assume as a breeding industry guy, Sean, you agree with that? I do. And then also where you, you can find that useful if it’s possible to turn races when it comes to, um, you know, that those two races that aqueduct that both myelinates races for two year olds there, um, you know, that there’s very few two-year-olds that, that want and can get a mile and eight sometimes at that point in the year and finding that horse that wants, that truly wants a distance and [04:00:00] positive spirit that pioneer of the Nile Philly, that one for Rudy Rosette, she was, you know, She had all kinds of female families.

She’s a half to a Derby winner and you look on paper and she’s the one, you know, Rudy was pretty high on her, but she’s still sitting there, I think 10 at 12 to one. And, um, but she’s, you know, on paper, the pedigree says she would love mile and eight and she ended up drawn off by 10 and everybody else was scrambling with a tongue thing now to the wire.

So there’s times, you know, in that sense as well that you can use it and help separate. I think it’s very useful. Especially with two year olds. I think once you get an older horse and they’ve got more PPS to fall back on, you kind of know what they are. Right. And you kind of know, uh, you know, whether it be a soft, soft turf course or, or affirm course, or lots of slop, or, you know, has only been running some races, whether it’s ideal distance, but he’s back to his ideal distance.

Um, the older horses, you have more insulin, but I think the younger horses especially are very useful to know kind of. [04:01:00] The blood lines a little bit. Let’s move on to California. And this is the race I was talking about before. I don’t even remember what I said, but I believe it was as bad as when I called the , whatever I said last year for the last I.

But I I’m very confident in my pronunciation. Now. It goes as Ray six, it is a grade three, six and a half. Uh, we’re going down the Hill, but we’re going down the Hill, but because J K have you noticed the forecast out there in California? I haven’t noticed it’s, it’s always, it’s always sunny in California.

What are you talking about? It’s meant to rain and it’s meant to rain to the point where John Sadler has entered cell court in the assumption or hope. I think that this is going to be washed off and run as a sprint on the dirt. So I do not think you will be seeing cell court. If the rumors are true. If this race holds on the turf.

I wish I could have another host fail. I could have prepped you guys for [04:02:00] the fact that this was probably coming off. Let’s talk about it as a turf race, because that’s what it was meant to be, but just know we won’t go too deep into the weeds with that in mind that the jury is very much out on which surface is race is going to be held on.

Uh, we also have one in here compelled who we talked about extensively during that super fun hour on the old show we had in December with Craig. Berneke when he’s very excited about, I would imagine, uh, another, uh, scratch will be on hand. If this one does change surfaces, JK, what do you have for me? Oh my gosh.

I’m I’m, I’m feeling bad. I, I did my, uh, my out of the gate play for DRF this week was like, A whole play around beating, sell court. Like, I didn’t know. She, I thought she was, oops. Well, that’s what they get.

No. So, um, uh, you know, well, on the turf I thought the two horses made the [04:03:00] most sense. I thought compelled. Obviously we talk about the rail, not being a great place to be going down the Hill. I still think she kind of falls out of the race and then comes running with one run. So I don’t think it’s going to really be a problem for her.

And then painting corners, I think is extremely talented when you can, when going five turf sprinting at Del Mar and when going six and a half down the Hill, it’s saying, Anita, I think it says a lot about your talent and the quality. So those are the two horses that I thought were the most likely winners.

And, uh, and, and I thought I was going to get cute, trying to beat sell court, but, uh, obviously John Sadler is a smarter than I am. He’s one step ahead of you JK at the, at the least. Sean, anything to add to this? Or should we just quickly move, move it along to the next one? Well, actually real quickly was is, and this is what I ha you, you brought up, um, bedding angles, and this is actually the turf, the down the Hill turf course.

Um, I mean, I can, as far as California racing goes, I know the [04:04:00] majority of just two friends that are out there and you kind of go out there for the breeders cop or stakes races and you learn some things. So. Just from watching these stakes races and, and, and learning about this turf course. I mean, here, I think I generally, what people have taught me about this turf course is a, the outside posts are better for going down the Hill.

Um, milers on the main street, on the, on the, on the, uh, The main turf course, milers cut back to down the Hill are, are very advantageous. And I use that once in the breeders cup, I think there was a money cold. I’m trying to remember Dan Hendricks trained the horse. Uh Oh, okay. And then, uh, the model might’ve had the horse at this point, it was, it was the horse named, obviously he was that running.

Yeah. Miler and they ran. I think they might’ve both got nosed out, but they ran like second and third or first and second they’re both like 25 to one or something, but I use the miler off the main turf and, and, and, you know, they were both California [04:05:00] horses, which I think is an advantage. So Bruce kept going back out there.

So those horses tend to run pretty good down the, you know, down the Hill out there. So, um, But looking at it, a horse like Delaware Bay has a lot of experience on, on the turf course. She’s won four times going down the Hill. I didn’t even consider looking to see if there was any rain coming into California.

So I as well was kind of scratching my head as to why cell court was, was doing what she was doing. But I guess. It goes to show you J K you’re not the only one who wonder prepares, but, uh, the, the horse, the horse, I was kinda like wanting to get excited about a little bit. She was sitting at 12 to one with the other Proctor, with the blinkers off, um, Philly.

They had been running two turns on the turf last time out. Um, you know, it was a mile and a tariff. I don’t know. First time going down the, going down the Hill Proctor. I’m rooting for Ken and Lisa Turney are very good breeders here in Lexington. So I don’t know, I was just going to take a swing there, but sense.

I think that [04:06:00] both those points you make about the downhill are correct with one little addition, and this is just anecdotal and there are databases out there. Some of you listen, and if there’s a database or listening who wants to help look at this particular question, I’d be appreciative. If not. One of the things I want to do once I get the show a little bit more stable and get my new professional life established is do a little bit of database like of my own.

But the thing I want to test is that idea of the rail down the Hill, not being where you want to be. I think it’s correct, but I think it’s much more correct when you’re looking at a big full field, as opposed to the short fields they often get. So I think when people have looked at that question in macro, it hasn’t left footprints.

That that is correct, but I think it’s probably correct based on how many horses are in the race anyway. Something fun to do. I think that, I think that the, the other thing is if, if, if you’re databasing right, I think the other part to keep in mind is like a running style of the horse that [04:07:00] happens to draw the rail great point.

That’s probably, and, and the, and the race design itself. I want to say that a horse was speed on the rail in a moderate to fast paced race. Is that a big disadvantage going down the Hill? More so than like a, you know, the, the, you know, the opposite of what that would be. You know what I mean? I, I think that that probably, um, impacts it.

I think that’s a good point and field size again, makes sense. That that would sort of be related to that JK expecting a mid to fast paced, more, the more horses who signed on anyway, something we’ll be talking about. More on the show as we go on. It’s an interesting, fun aspect of USA. Horseplaying to try to suss out what’s going on with that down the Hill turf race and Sean points out well, we’ll have a breeders’ cup race down the Hill too, which will be very interesting because you’re going to get.

Horses coming with great looking form from Europe. They’re going to be at a serious disadvantage, no matter what the foreign book says to [04:08:00] me, because it is so quirky compared to some of those California horses who’ve been running down there all along. Let’s move on to race eight. It’s the LA Kenyatta not going to catch me out there, but yet another one where the host fail is just right on the tip of the tongue.

We’re going a mile 16th on the dirt here. We’re going to push this one back in your court, Sean. Well, I’m looking at this and I guess quickly also paying attention to that. You probably need to pay, uh, they could be a wet track. Um, there’s a little bit of wet form there. Um, the, the five to two shot in there for Don Schnell who, uh, interesting enough, um, as five to achieve one, one, sorry, on the wet.

And so did, uh, takes wild cat. I’m going to be. Um, slightly rooting for Bernina star because we are actually standing her half-brother national flag in Ohio this year. So the, um, one of my patent of status [04:09:00] hits pedigree a little bit, if she can get it done. Um, and then kind of a pedigree play here, uh, Philly that looks like, uh, it’s kinda going in the right direction and she’s trying, uh, It looks like dirt for the first time, but she is actually a half sibling to the good horse, Papa Clem, the other quality filet Stradella road, Bay rhinos ops she’s five to one.

She probably enjoyed it. The wet going out of, uh, uh, blown to me, Marin being by looser quality. And so I’m going to, uh, If I had to be pressed at that one, I think I might put a little bit of, uh, across the board on the two horse, J K, did this connect to the pick play you gave out for out of the gate where you’re still a participant over there for our friends at DRF?

Or did you have to look at this one individually for our show? I did not. I didn’t have a strong opinion in this race, so I didn’t try to connect the, uh, I didn’t try to connect the two. Um, you know, I looked at Sidella road too, and I, I guess the [04:10:00] part that, that threw me off the most is like, There was no dirt Tris, um, as a, as a two old or as a three-year-old.

And, and that w with a horse that you think that would Excel on the dirt with as big as our three-year-old dirt programs can be in this country, you would think that at some point, if this horse had shown the ability to run on the dirt, they would have tried the horse on the dirt and I could be completely wrong.

It’s just that part of the narrative is throwing me off and looking at that horse, because time form us suggests, uh, that something, you know, on or near the lead is going to be in an advantageous spot. This one projects, the kind of get the rail and be in that position. I went with the Ritchie Baltic source, the lemon drop kid, uh, Philly, uh, Laguna, uh, who ran well, the grade one last year ran fourth, the Val Dory in the grade ones.

And Jada had the 91 days off, comes back, closing into blue fractions on the turf, and then runs back in 13 days, kind of quick turnaround, uh, forwardly placed to be sharp should be much [04:11:00] better than second off. They should be better getting back onto the dirt. Uh, so I went with a three Lamona as my top choice.

I think the race is really tough. All right there, you have it. Our analysis of the graded stakes racing this weekend. I’m going to circle back to each of you guys. If you have a final thought you’d like to share could be anything about the highlighting site. We’ve already talked about looking ahead to something else and observation, whatever it is, but before.

I get to the final thoughts. I would just want to mention one more time about the survey helped me out. I hope I don’t sound like a broken record, but it really would be fantastic. If you could go to in the money fill out our listener survey. Hopefully you’ll already be subscribing to the blog and or to our feed on iTunes.

Both of those things also big helps as we get this show we’re already off and running. We’re already up at the same numbers we were at at the other show. And now for the first time in its history, we’re actually going to be marketing the [04:12:00] DRF play. Oh, I said it, and I’m going to leave it in just to punish myself for the first time ever.

We’re going to be marketing the podcast, really looking for those numbers to grow. And so if you guys can help us do that, I always thank the listeners at the end of the show. And I mean, it sincerely, you’re what makes it so fun to do your, what makes it possible? I am in this one instance, I try not to ask too much in this one instance, I am going to ask for help in these areas.

So please share the show with your friends in racing and, uh, take those other little  and we should be in good shape. Okay. Sean, I’m going to start with you. Do you have a final thought concerning racing this weekend or anything else in the racing world? Pete, I just want to thank you for, for having me on again.

It’s always a good time getting on here and talking to both you and John kitchen and very excited for the new show. Your show is fantastic. Um, I know a lot of people in our industry really enjoy listening to it. It’s great insight. Uh, it’s got good speed to it. And, uh, so [04:13:00] hopefully you can take this new show and, and, and grow with it and, uh, very exciting, but just to get the DRF out, when you’re on that yoga mat, it’s get born with yourself, get up, get rid of the DRF and get the ITM and ITM and the Alex can do it.

I know you can, um, and, uh, excited for where the new show is going to go. And, uh, can’t wait to see out the races. Thank you, my friend. That’s a good idea. Literally, you know, you’re on the yoga mat and they ask you to set your intention for the practice it’s supposed to be. You know, I’m sending my inner love and peace and compassion out to a friend in need or something like that.

In my case, it’s just going to be intention to don’t mess up the letters. Don’t mess. Don’t say it. Don’t say DRF. Don’t say DRM. J K a final thought. Yeah. My final thought is why Sean, thank you for being on the show. You didn’t see. So I’m not really sure it was that thing. I said, thank you to everyone.

Don’t you worry about that. All right, gentlemen, we’ve done. [04:14:00] Uh, we’ve done an hour on here and that’s what we’re going to do for today. We will be back shortly. Sean. No. Good deed goes unpunished. You’ll be back soon. I want to thank JK. I want to thank Sean. I want to thank DJ unstable for his continued tech support really berating me, uh, for the bad levels.

Apparently I’ve been putting out in the final product. Listeners have not complained. They used to complain all the time with the bad sound. Oh, one other note, somebody asked about the banging and clanging they’re hearing in the background. Uh, the last couple of shows. This is a case of the law of unintended consequences, having good sound now and recording from a place that was built in the 19th century.

It’s cold in New York and we got an old furnace and that’s just the banging and clanging of the pipes, not JKS a ghost that he’s afraid of as one listener speculated to me. So don’t, don’t worry that the ghost is [04:15:00] shackled up in the boiler room, not actually making those noises anyway. Thanks to you guys.

Thanks to DJ on stable. Most of all, thanks to all of you for listening. A lot of listeners, really stepping up and helping out, getting the new show going. And I just appreciate it so much. We will be back on Monday or Tuesday, not sure what we’re going to do yet, but we’ll be back early next week. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel.

May you win all your photos. .

 Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. [04:16:00] Hello. Hello, and welcome to the in the money players podcast. This is episode 16, the February 15th. Make that. Friday, February 15th edition. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in the Brooklyn bunker out of Las Vegas. Happy to be back home.

Boy, that was a weekend that I need at least a week to recover from. But we had a great time out there. Still happy to be home and back to some sense of normalcy blogging over at, in the money and talking to you all here on the, in the money players podcast, few notes to go over. But first I want to bring in the co-host of this program.

He is the demagogue of degeneracy. He is the people’s champion back from the planet, Texas Jonathan kitchen, JK WhatsApp. PTF. What’s the word? Yeah. I’m, I’m still, I’m still struggling. I don’t care. What you go to [04:17:00] Vegas for coming back from Vegas is, is challenging in its own. Right. And I think most of the reason it’s so challenging is like the smoke and the casinos and the dry air.

It feels like my like nose is like, like just like, just like raw inside from breathing and all that nonsense. But, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m in the, I’m in the recovery zone right now. It should be okay here in the next day or so try air smoke combo is a killer. I came back and got sick. I haven’t been sick hardly all winter and definitely been playing hurt for the last couple of days.

Not sure what can be done about that. I don’t think there are any smoke-free casinos and certainly wouldn’t be the ones we’d be hanging out for the NHC. Right. Um, I got a question though. We actually, this, this came up in one of the funny conversations you have in Vegas. Do you predict at any point in any time that Vegas will ever become smoke-free?

I feel like it’s just antithetical to the very concept. I could see a high-end place. Say maybe trying it, but I don’t know, man. It just feels, it feels off-brand doesn’t it. [04:18:00] Yeah, but didn’t you always probably mean didn’t 20 years ago. Like, you know, someone in your family say to you, like there’s no way that a bar in New York city will ever not allow smoking.

There’s thought that I don’t think I probably thought it too, but it’s not. Nobody goes to New York city to smoke. You go to Las Vegas to quote unquote sin. It’s in the damn name of the nickname of the city. So to put any limitations on, you know, uh, Liberty. It just doesn’t feel right to me. I, in a very different way than smoking bans elsewhere do and believe me, I love it.

It’d be the greatest thing for me personally. It just doesn’t feel like something I handicapped to happen. What do you obviously think it might. No, I don’t. I mean, I’ve wishful. It’d be nice if they did, but no, I don’t think they ever will. It’s like you said, it’s they want to keep the freedoms alive there then again, um, the Disnification who knows maybe someplace we’ll step out and yeah.

The thing is I only ever go there for work low key. I don’t really like Las Vegas, you know? I mean, [04:19:00] I love seeing my friends. I love being at a big tournament, but it’s just too much of a situation where not for one minute, you can, you pretend that everybody around you, isn’t trying to separate you from your money.

In a way that just make my city senses go off and look, I’m not going to cut off my nose to spite my face when I’m there, I’m going to enjoy it. And the restaurants are fun and I feel bad. I never have time to go see the shows like my man, Dan Hart does seeing all the cool old rockers out there. But for me, it’s just, it’s not a destination.

It’s a place I have to go for work. What? You like it more? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I liked it more when I was young. I mean, it’s still fun. It’s exciting. I tweeted the other day, like the cab ride from the airport to your hotel has never not been exciting for me going to Vegas. It’s always like a fun moment of excitement.

There’s nothing more fun than that first, you know, roulette on black bet that I do with my suitcase in my hand. Um, it’s just, uh, you know, and that part of it’s fun, but then like, It can get old [04:20:00] pretty quick. Cause it is like kind of a non-stop feel and knowing how the rest of your weekend in Vegas went.

I could only assume this time when you did your, your black action bet that it came up red. No, I hit that’s it. That’s why it’s not supposed to happen like this because I have a good weekend. I hit it. Yeah. So, uh, it, it was fun. We had a good time though. I mean, I, I always like being there just the same as you and, and, uh, and just, you know, you just kinda moving around.

It’s, it’s a fun city, but I just, I don’t like it as much as I used to. To have fun at the hockey game though. I will say that that’s one of the coolest sporting events I’ve been to. Um, I’ve been to hockey games before, you know, obviously the stars here in Dallas and I was going to those games when they were really good and winning Stanley cups.

I’ve been to a lot of sporting events. Well, you know, Superbowls and all kinds of stuff. The hockey game, they do a really, really good job. Making it a show. We are going to get to our very special guest, Frank McGaughey in a minute or two, but I did want to make one public service announcement. But actually even before that, let’s loop back to the hockey game, it looks like you had [04:21:00] an interesting little encounter between periods with a man.

I thought you would have never exchanged pleasantries wit based on your previous social interactions on Twitter, our man inside the pylons. How did that come about? And how did that go? Are you guys boys now? Look, I’ve made a lot of comments about him on here. So I think it’s only fair to make this comment.

I reached out to a mutual friend and just said like, look either like, just either, like, don’t say my name anymore or meet me when I’m in Vegas and let’s talk like humans and to his credit, he met me and we talked one morning downstairs before everyone got there while I was getting ready, come the NHC.

That conversation didn’t go great. It was a lot of disagreements and, and like I said, in a tweet there’s, you know, I think we probably both said some things that were at least semi insulting to one another, but it never got like weird and like, you know, and I was like a fight or anything. It was just know disagreements.

And then it just kind of ended there and, uh, walked by him at one point, he like, you know, said, hello. And it was not a big deal. [04:22:00] Then at the hockey game, uh, he called my bluff. I was trying to be cute. And I said, I bet inside the pylons, won’t buy me a beer between the second and the third. And he said, meet me here.

So, you know, he called my bluff. I had to go. And then I went and we talked and he was nice. He was pleasant to me, to my girlfriend. He was, he was with Jason beam and, and, and dank. And so, and then I just kinda asked him, what’s the quickest way to get out of here when the game’s over. Cause he goes to a lot of the games.

He gave me some advice and then he messaged me during that and offered a ride and he gave us a ride back to the hotel. I thought it was very nice and generous and very. I don’t, I don’t want to say mature cause that’s kind of condescending, but like, just like, you know, like it was, I would struggle at times to do something as nice as that.

So you did just now and so, yeah. I don’t think we’re ever going to be best friends or agree about everything in the world. I think there’s a sense of respect when th that, that happens when people get out from behind the keyboard, um, myself. Um, and so. Um, yeah, I think it’s a happy ending for what it’s worth.

What kind of beer did he buy? You [04:23:00] know, you didn’t buy me a beer. He still tells me that it was quick, but the lines were long and we kind of got there at the last second because he was somewhere where I thought he was different, you know, whatever it worked out. All right. The other thing I wanted to talk about.

Is this London half marathon that I’m doing for charity. It’s a great cause Make-A-Wish UK. I have set up a, just giving page, but we’re going to do this with a twist JK. When you donate money, you get the opportunity. To win what I’m calling simply a fabulous prize package, which I will cater to the individual who wins.

It’s not a raffle, what you have to do to win the fabulous prize package is guests my time in the London half, I’ve got in a blog post from earlier this week, which I’ll send out again. Some relevant statistics. The time from the last time I did a half marathon, as well as my most recent 10 K time, you can sort of project out, take your guests of where I’m going to finish.

If you guess it right, [04:24:00] you will win. And what might this package be? It depends if you’re somebody who’s a novice handicapper interested in getting involved, I will send you an amazing package of books about horse racing and handicapping. If you’re a booze person, I may send you an entire cocktail kit with a recipe bottles, et cetera.

If you’re somebody who’s up in Saratoga or down in the city, come over a Tony, uh, Tony, the pony made the comment at the NAC that I made the best ribs he’s ever had. Well, you know what. If you win and you’re in Saratoga, we’ll do a whole, a barbecue thing with the smoker out in the backyard at the little house on the back of the East side.

So whatever you want, basically we’ll work something out. That’s fun. Really the goal here is to raise money for the Make-A-Wish foundation, U K, and you can get in on this. I will send around the link via Twitter. You can go to the blog post at, in the money Those are going to probably be the easiest ways.

JK, can I count on your support? [04:25:00] Absolutely. I’m I’m, I’m Google I’m handicapping right now, trying to find out where I’m going to, where I’m going to, uh, where I’m going to be. I like it. No inside info for me. You get no special treatment just because you’re my pod. Co-host and I told Susan the same thing.

Have you done a marathon before? I’ve done a half before? Well, are you going to give us your time for the habits and the blog posts? Are you going to. Like aggravates and not give us

all kinds of trouble here at J K all kinds of editing, not, Oh, no, I’m not editing that out. I’ll leave it in. I’m going to leave it in. It’s a fair it’s fair comment. And I’ll also tell you this general racing industry comment. The times that I publish in the blog post, they will actually be correct.

All right. That’s enough of that silliness, unless you’ve got anything else. I think it is time to bring in our man. You ready for this? J K here is our chat with Frank McGaughey [04:26:00] and now I’d like to welcome to the end, the money players podcast for his debut visit Frank McGaughey Frank what’s up. Oh no.

The day at the racetrack, no place. I’d rather be just leaving the fairgrounds this morning. You were out watching the workouts this morning. I was come out probably a couple of days, at least a couple of days a week. I don’t, I’m not working with any spotters or any, uh, anybody at the gap. I just do it on my own.

Um, and, um, I’ll call if it’s really busy day, I try to concentrate on the gate works because there’s fewer, it’s easier to figure out who they were when the work tab comes out. But on the slow days, like Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, when they have a relatively small number of workers, Um, I could figure it out.

I know all the saddle pads and I can match up times and markings and, uh, I always leave with some knowledge I didn’t have before I got here. So yeah, I like coming out in the morning. How do you keep track of your notes? I’m handwriting in a notebook. And then, uh, once the work tab gets published on [04:27:00] Equibase, um, I’ll go through it.

And if I have to watch a replay or two, um, I’ll watch that just to make sure it was the horse. I thought it was, um, I got to do it. I have to do it the same day because I found it if I try to wait and. Do a couple of days at once. My recall isn’t as good as if I do it the same day. Um, I’ll just take some quick notes on them.

Get the times when, uh, I just keep my eyes on the half mile pole and the fight for a long call. And when somebody breaks off, I’ll get them to the wire and then check them on a Gallop out and the double Gallop out. And I record all that stuff that it’s been profitable this year. So it’s been good. You looking for, are you more concerned with the time or more how the horse is doing it and what are you looking for in terms of the ladder?

I’m much more concerned with how the horse is doing it. I mean, I really think FaceTime works are unnecessary. It’s how they just, how they’re traveling, how they carry themselves, how they finished it, they finished, like they got something left. Um, how were they on a Gallop out Gallup? Out’s really important to me.

I want to see [04:28:00] them like, they want to do more after the wire. Um, I don’t like backwards works where they start early in the, slowing down through the work. I’d much rather let them finish then and do it the right way. And they, you know, these horses tip themselves. They do, they really tell you when they’re sitting on it.

Where did you learn about horseflesh? Just years of coming out here, I started, uh, I started coming to the track. Um, I can tell you this. I know you can look this up. I want to say it’s in the early eighties. I had it, my best friend in high school’s uncle was the track superintendent here at the fairgrounds.

His name was Roy fabric and he was also, uh, in addition to be the track superintendent. He also split time as the stall super. The trainers you still like to be in as good favor because they get the barns that they want. Of course, and the number of stalls. And he had an office right off the paddock and the old fairgrounds, and he had a bar in there.

Me and my buddy would hang out in there and run bets for these [04:29:00] guys. You know, the trainers would come in and say, Hey, Roy, you know, you really need to make a bet on this horse. And he had, he had set it up. They had this one teller. That we were like 14, 15 years old. We could go to the teller and they, she knew we were battling for Roy and he’d usually give us a 110 bucks, a hundred for himself and 10 for us.

And we’d go run that. And I can, I do remember. So I remember in 1983 or 80 it’s I think it’s 83. You can look it up Balbo and native one, the Louisiana Derby. And I think that was the first time Lucas came in new Orleans with a horse for the Derby. And Lucas, somehow he knew Roy Farrell. He told him to bet on that horse and he set us in there with 120 that day.

We got there about 20 on. Then we got to go take down the temporary rails with the maintenance, grew his maintenance crew, so they could bring the horse in the infield for the, they used to do the winners circle in the hedges, in the infield, at the factory in the old days. So going back to your original question, I kind of got off on you there, I guess just years and years [04:30:00] of being around horses more.

Um, I’ve owned a couple and just the more you’re around them, you get to see them and you get to kind of know what looks good and what doesn’t look good. The way a horse moves away carries himself, stuff like that. Just experience like, again, just like anybody you’ve met in this game, that’s a good handicapper.

They usually started or had a relative that started them young because it’s just layer after layer of experience. And it’s just the same way with looking at horse flushing, in my opinion, that seems like a good segue to asking you about this year’s NHC, where we saw so many players without the benefit of experience that we’re used to seeing at the final table doing well, including our overall winner, Scott Coles.

Who’s going to be a guest on this podcast next week. What do you think when you see these young guys having success? I, you know, I think it’s great. Uh, it’s the game is definitely changing. Um, I’m not sure what tools they use. And I [04:31:00] do think there are a lot more analytical and using a lot different stuff than I use.

Um, um, mostly site and trip notes in line figures, stuff like that. Um, I know these guys are looking at a lot of stats and stuff like that, but I’m not on the whole other end of the spectrum is what makes us game so great. I rode the elevator with Chris. Littlemore the guy that won it last year and finished, uh, you know, in the top 10 again this year.

And he shows up with a racing form and a pen. I mean, I told him, I said, this is the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen that you’re back to back at the final table. It’s incredible. So. There’s more than one way to skin. A cat is all approved and then you sprinkle on some luck and the sky’s the limit.

That’s right. That’s right. Fantastic game. It really is JK. I know you’ve got some questions for Frank. Yeah, I just need to know what, what game’s code is. I, you know, a reference to the world, horse players to our pilot at one point, [04:32:00] uh, the teller, Jimmy asked you if you’re going all in and you say, absolutely  yeah.

What does that mean? You know, I that’s some old racetrack this guy that, uh, he was actually my little league coach. He used to say that all the time, he was like, he was down to his last book, you know? So that was, that was my last play. It was the last button on games code. I don’t know. I swear to God, I stole it.

I totally stole it from him. This guy was a character, his name’s Frank Mowbray and uh, and Paul Mateus is actually, but you’ve met him. Jonathan. You met him at Saratoga. I think he’s an old guy. He was my, he was my little league baseball coach and I saw him in the parking lot. He actually, he wound up marrying somebody.

Who was, who was my age? So like 25 years younger than him. Anyway, I see him in the parking lot. The fairgrounds, this is 30 years ago. He says, I didn’t know you liked the horses. I said, yeah, yeah. I liked the horses because we used to watch the last in the parking lot. So we could beat the traffic out [04:33:00] of here.

It was back in the days when people actually went to the racetrack and it was packed. So he says, listen, I’m going out of town. Uh, the, the Orleans handicaps this weekend, make sure you bet on a horse called intrusion. And it was Larry Milan. So I rode the horse and I said, all right, great. I said, well, since you gave me one, I’ll give you one, a friend of mine is running the first time started called pocket drop.

Well, I don’t have to tell you that intrusion one in new Orleans handicap that year at nine Oh one and pocket drop focus and Baden paid 36 bucks. And he, I don’t know how he got my phone number, but he tracked me down when he got back from out of town and he was going skiing or something, he got back for ski and he said, we need to start going to the races together.

No horses together for 30 years. Oh, that’s fantastic. I wanted to ask you about your experience on the world. HorsePlayers tour pilot. Did that, uh, did that get you any extra attention? Did you, did you have people coming up to you talking about that? Or how was your experience and what was the reaction to it?

Yeah, it was fantastic. It was fun. Um, I think it’s a great format and I hope [04:34:00] it catches on, uh, I did have a lot of people that watched it and said, you know, they thought I had done a good job and then, uh, They liked everything about it. I mean, granted, I only hang around racing guys, so they should like it.

I mean, anything involving race and they’re going to like, but, but, uh, they all did. And I guess, you know, if that’s the audience you got to hit. That’s great. I know a lot of the old school players who watched, found themselves nothing against, uh, the young guys at the table, but found themselves gravitating towards you.

What is it about this racetrack life, the racetrack culture that’s so appealing to you personally for well as a number of things. Uh, I like a lot of the. Kind of shady part of it, to be honest with you, you got a chance to make a score. Well, you know, there’s always some shenanigans at the track going on.

I mean, uh, this, it says there’s somebody working an angle, even if it’s dropping, claiming horses and trying to hide works and all that [04:35:00] kind of stuff. I love all that. I think it’s fantastic. And then, uh, every race every day, I’m so filled with optimism. Um, I’m serious when I tell you, I mean, I can get buried three days in a row and I will wake up on the fourth day and I’m like, I’ve got three bad backs.

I’m going to kill him today. You know what I mean? Every day I’m excited to dive in and see if there’s an opportunity. My friend William Murray, the late great racing writer had an expression he’d used, and it didn’t matter how bad the day was at the end of the day. He could say there’s always fresh. And that, that seems to me to be what you’re describing, that attitude that there’s always fresh.

There’s always more to come. The eternal promise a losing day. Isn’t a losing day. So much as our inevitable victory has simply been deleted. I need another day. I really believe in that. Uh, see guys. At the track who feel like they gotta catch back to get even for the day. And, and I try to tell them, you got to change your way of thinking.

I mean, it’s, [04:36:00] it’s, it’s a marathon. It’s not a sprint. I mean, they run so many days. There’s so many opportunities to bet you just got to show a profit at the end of the year or the end of the month or whatever it is. I mean, there’s no, there’s no sense in chasing he waited for the right opportunity and then take advantage of it.

The poker expression comes to mind. When you say that, the idea that it’s all one long game, it is. Yeah, no doubt about it. No doubt about it. Right? I know you focus mostly on, uh, on Louisiana. How are you? Are you playing Delta at night? Are you, are you Louisiana and, and fairgrounds, like, what’s kind of your schedule when it comes to juggling the Louisiana tracks, there’s usually two running at one single time.

So how do you usually handle that? Correct. So, so I do, um, I spend more time on fairgrounds than I do Delta, but I do do the replays for both watching them take trip notes on both and just the nature of Delta. It being in a bull ring. It’s tougher to predict in my [04:37:00] opinion. So I spot play there, but I I’m definitely always juggling two tracks.

And in the summer, it’s Louisiana down and evangelists and Louisiana is during the day evangelists at night. I’m. Honestly wish that the state would get away from that and divide the racing days equally amongst the four tracks, it would make for better racing, everywhere, full of fields and better wager on opportunities.

And, and I’m not so sure that any of these tracks would have a problem with it too. I just don’t know why they, nobody suggested it. You know, it would just make a better practice in general. You’ve been around the game a minute. Frank, how has your handicapping process evolved over time and how important is it to keep growing as a horseplayer?

I think it’s, it’s crucial to keep growing. Um, you got to keep working. Uh, Jonathan knows this from, from being a tour champion. I mean, to be successful in this game, you have got to work your butt off. And you can’t stop it. It’s it’s every day you gotta keep up with things. Um, when [04:38:00] I’m away for any extended period of time.

Uh, a couple of years ago, I went to Europe for two weeks with the wife. And when I got back, I was like lost in as far as handicapping, I’m going to, I just had to. Get back in the groove. It took me a good month and a half before. I felt like I was in my routine. I stick to a routine with my handicap and I’m an early riser.

I like to do it when I’m have no interruptions. And I’m usually handicap in one or two days in advance. I mean like today I got up this morning, I’m up at four, from four to five. I’m looking at fairgrounds for Sunday, skimming, uh, Oaklawn for Sunday. And then at five 30, I headed out to the track to, they started trending at five 45.

And I’ll just stay in that routine. I usually try to take two days off a week, but five days a week, I’m doing it as far as adding things to your game over time. Speak to that for a minute. Part of what I’m doing these days, like coming out to the track, um, especially when the fairgrounds is running. I like seeing the horses in person, [04:39:00] uh, you know, in, in live and, and training and they don’t even have to be working.

I like to see them so attract like the fairgrounds where they enter a week in advance. It’s really an advantage. I can take a look at an overnight and see who entered and know that the next day, seven days out, they’re probably gonna work or at least blow out in the next couple of days, getting ready for that race.

So when I get to see that. I mean, if I have an opinion and I get to see the horses doing well, I could bet with confidence and you know, one thing about this game, you’re not right a lot, but when you are right, you got a score, the NAC, uh, this past weekend, uh, what percentage do you think, uh, were, were plays made at fairgrounds considering that’s kind of your home track?

And, you know, we all kind of identify a track as our home track that gives us the most comfort, but sometimes it doesn’t always lead to us playing most of our stuff there cause the. You, you understand what the real value of a race might be because of your, uh, of your, um, understanding? How [04:40:00] much do you think you played at fairgrounds?

Over the last year? I was definitely weighted with my, uh, with the, the plays where I got to select, you know, my free selections. I was wedded to a fairgrounds because they had some races. That I had interest in horses that were going to be the right price the last day on Friday, that 40 to one shot at the fairgrounds.

Uh, that was one of the races I needed a 41 shot at that point, but that was one of the races that was a horse I had pre-identified there’s always, whenever I do good in, in these and PR I mean, not pick and pray, but when it plays tournaments, it seems that there’s a formula for me. Um, you know, the mandatories, I approach a lot different than the other races, uh, but there’s always a formula.

I’m going to, you know, I hear some people say I’m not taking a horse on the eight to one. Uh, and I, I, I, I, that never works for me. It’s always a mix of a couple of favorites, some mid-price horses and a couple of bombs that are pre identified by me. Before I go in that, I think have a chance that I know [04:41:00] I’m going to take a swing at, I never seem to be able to stab at 20 to one shots when you need it and have them win.

It just doesn’t seem to work for me. So. The fairgrounds card this past weekend at NAC fit, the kind of horses I wanted, I was looking for. They had some favorites that I thought, you know, okay, this is a good, good spot for this horse. He’s going to win. I can bet you might be five to two. I can bank 10 points or something like that.

And then they had something like the last race on Friday. Well, I never dreamed that horse was going to be 40 to one. I thought he might be 15, but she was 15 and GL Dawn. And so it all worked. I mean, I was definitely weighted. I’d say. 60% of my, my free selections came at fairgrounds this past weekend. How did you get into contest, Frank?

And how important are they these days to your business model as it were? That’s a good question. How, again, I know the first handicapping contest I ever went to was out at the Orleans. I had a friend, a bookmaker friend from Baton Rouge who [04:42:00] went out to Vegas. I think he had gotten in some trouble in, in, goes out to Vegas and meets all these guys like the Mattise brothers.

And Aldo Pena, these guys from New York and New Jersey who moved out there, basically because of the rebates that the Orland was offering. And, uh, yeah, he sets each calling back home. He said, man, y’all got to come out here. They got this handicap and tournament and he’s telling us all about it. So we went out there that was 2007 and I had started taking notes, uh, trip notes on fairgrounds tracks on my own and keep them like in a notebook.

And, uh, I mean, that was a lot of work and tedious, but I knew it was necessary to be successful. And I met those guys out there. Um, I wanna meet in Aldo and, and Paul and Duke, and they didn’t have anybody that was doing anything at the Louisiana tracks. And, uh, I kind of mashed with what they were doing and, uh, I joined up with those guys and [04:43:00] been doing that and playing contest ever since now that I don’t play a whole lot of the winter place contest, uh, the cash contest.

I mean, a lot of my years built around the, well now the Pegasus, the BCBC and the KTBC. I mean, those are great opportunities to make money. Your brother of course has one of the great achievements in handicapping contest history. He’s really the only person to have won two majors with his back-to-back BC wins, any element of sibling rivalry that somebody like me say has spilled.

So many more words on your brother than on you. When you’ve been doing this so much longer. No, not at all. I’ve ruined, I’ve ruined Patrick when it comes to gambling. I mean, now horse racing is his first love. He he’s, he always tells me, I mean, he was a very good golfer in college and, and, uh, you know, throughout his whole adult life.

And, uh, but he says, you know, now he stands over a putt and he’s like, bored. It’s like, I wonder if I’m blabbing the pic floor, [04:44:00] but no, I don’t. I, I mean, I want him to be greatly successful. He’s very generous. He always takes care of me every, the, so Patrick and I, I’ve got, I’ve got three of three brothers, but Patrick and I, um, We talk every day and that’s because of the horses.

I mean, I, I send them a rundown every day of anything I like. And then they’ll call me if he has time in between, you know, billable hours that he’s going to be playing, they go over stuff. I’ve got another brother. My older brother is a lawyer. Patrick’s the only other brother that’s got gambling. I’m like me too.

Uh, my oldest brother’s a lawyer. He, he, if he was at the track with me and I told him I fixed the race, he might bet 20 bucks. I mean, he’s just not gonna, he’s not firing. And then my youngest brother, Paul he’s, you know, it’s a bunch of restaurants and, uh, he’s just doesn’t seem to be interested in him when he went to the, we all, we had all the McGaughey boys at one Derby, um, together.

And that was the mind that bird year and believe it or not, we went up scored in that [04:45:00] race. It’s a long, it’s a, it’s an hour story as to how all these pieces fell in place, but it just happened. And, but, uh, the group of us, we probably made 200,000 like 10 guys. It was great. And, uh, and I told my other, my.

My civilian brothers, Patrick, I mean Tommy and Paul, you know, a lot, not, they’re not in the war every day. Like me and Patrick, I said, y’all, don’t even think about coming back to the Derby. I said it doesn’t get any better than that. You know? I mean, you’ll, you’ll only ruin your experience. Remember this, you got a memory.

Hold on to it. I know they haven’t been back yet. I know you said it was an hour story and I won’t make you do that, but is there any way we can get the cliff notes of how you landed on that horse? Mine, that bird. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, Oh, another friend of mine, John Holmes, he’s got a memory, like an elephant.

He forgets nothing when it comes to horses. And I had told him, uh, early on the year Birdstone was a three-year-old that I thought [04:46:00] Birdstone was a nice horse. Well, he winds up betting on Birdstone in the Belmont. Right. Was it, when did the Belmont Birdstone one or was it the Travis? Can’t remember he went both.

Okay. Well what did Denny bet on twice? How’s that? So he scores. So we’re at dinner, uh, the Thursday night before the Derby in Louisville. And he says, what about this mind? That bird. And I said, you’ve got a better chance of seeing God, you’ve got no chance. I’m telling you, I’m not kidding you and my horse that you was tired near the Nile.

Right. And so, um, anyway, so he’s, now I tell him that, but he’s still gonna use them anyway. Cause he’s just like, feels obligated. Right? So we’re staying at the crown Plaza and uh, I’m down in the. Computer room one morning, like five in the morning print and forms is doing something. [04:47:00] And this guy walks in, uh, he’s an older guy and he’s got, uh, uh, a younger guy with him and this smoking hot Asian girl.

That’s what, uh, and, and, uh, he says, Hey, you, look, you look like, you know what you’re doing? I was reading the form of something. And he says, I said, okay. He said, does my horse ever shot in the Derby? I said, who’s your horse? He says, musket, man. I said, you know what I said? I think you can get a slice with the right ride.

I mean, you drew, well, I think you did. We definitely have a chance. So he introduces himself, his name is Vic Carlson and, uh, and he introduces this girl as his girlfriend. He tells me proceeds to tell me the story of how he named muskets musket, man, which is that when they first met, he had to slow it down and explain to her.

That he was a musket man. You could only fill them up and he was going to fight. Once you said he couldn’t keep up with it. I swear to God. I swear to God. [04:48:00] So

for a few hours, fast forward a few hours and I’m reading the, I guess it was Oaks Friday, and this was like on Thursday of their B week. And I dunno, it was Friday. Um, I, I S I got warriors reward is jumping off the page at me. Ian Wilkes was, and I’m like in love. I think it was the unwelcome, whereas Warren, I love him.

And why? Like, this is the best bet I’ve ever seen. He’s cutting back. I mean, this is going to hit him right in the eyes. I love it. So I’m telling all these guys, all the guys on our trip that we’re going to make the score we’re betting on Warrior’s reward. And then I’ve also told them the story about musket, man, they’re laughing just like each other were.

And so here comes. Vic Carlson and the smoking girlfriend back from the track after watching the horse work, you know, Gallup a train that morning. I said he has a guy here, so I bring Vicky over to my group and we introduce him and we’re all laughing and joking. And he says, [04:49:00] he goes, listen, I got a horse for you guys.

You’re not going to believe this. He said I was leaving a track and this guy, isn’t a Cadillac. He backs up my car, my rental car and the guy’s all apologizing. And his name’s Jerry Hissom he’s Calvin Burrell’s ages. And he told us whatever we do, make sure we better warriors reward. The next day. I said, this is unbelievable.

You can’t make this stuff up. Well, Nico is say the next day when warriors ward went from last to first at hit the lead at the eighth pole, literally. Not the box we were at outside was shaking. We, we was screaming so much. There’s no telling how much money we won with that deal. So then the Vick Carlson guy, he got my number some kind of way.

He’s calling me. Did you bet? Did you bet? I’m like, yeah. We’d bet. Thank you. Yeah, I’m going crazy. This guy, he was such a nice guy on the Derby walkover. You know, w when they walk over with the horses, he’s walking over with musket man, and my [04:50:00] cell phone’s ringing with this number and I looked down and it’s Vic cross, and he’s calling while he’s walking over to the horse.

Hey, do you see us? We’re on a track and I’m going, what are you doing? I mean, you just met me three days ago. You’re walking always for only Derby walk in your life, get off the phone. It, it was insane. So anyway, that’s how the story went down, that we wound up on my horse was pioneer. The Nile. Vic Carlson gift wrap musket, man.

And Birdstone gave us my dad bird and. The really sad part of the whole deal was that if musket man who got bumped by pioneer the now right at the wire, if he gets second that year, we would have hit the super. And it, it, it would have paid a million bucks. I mean, I think it did pay a million bucks, but we would’ve had it.

It might’ve paid more. You were Mo you mostly hit picks in there or how did it, uh, how did it go down? We keep, uh, so people just kept buying tickets in the thing. And coming back [04:51:00] with, I had a, these are a bunch of first time starters on the strip and these guys had a lot of money and they were all stacked up from warriors ward.

So they weren’t afraid to fire. They were making, uh, they kept making tries. One of them was key in mine. That bird first, second, and third with everybody. Then the other one was. Key and pioneer the now first and second would musket man. And I’m up and down. It was all Tris. It was huge Tris. Everybody cares.

I think the tribe pay 20,000. Yeah, I think we hit it like 12 times Warrior’s reward was he was on the undercard there. Right. I’m trying to remember. Yeah, he was on the undercard. Yes. And it wasn’t even that day. It was the day before I think it was Oak stack. Gotcha. I’m surprised you didn’t talk yourself out of that.

You know, you could see that you’re with the first time starters and you’re you go in them on some bats, but you’re like, am I that bird? I think I’ll skip those. Were you surprised yourself that you went with the flow and got a piece of that score? Yeah, well, yeah, I got it. No, I didn’t get that much of the score, but this [04:52:00] was before the tax laws would change and they let me sign all tickets.

So it was a score in its own. Right. How’s that none of these guys wanted their wives to know much money. Yeah.

Give me those. Oh, that’s great. That’s great. It was a jackpot. Yeah. Okay. All right. I hope I can say I was not listening, but of course we probably passed the statute of limitations. I think you’re okay. I think you’re okay. You’ve done a phenomenal job on this portion of the show, Frank and you’ve you’ve no good deed goes on punished.

We’ll have you back soon to talk more about your life and times. At the track. I may even just give up the host job and give it to you. Your story, just so entertaining. I’m sorry if I hijack there. It’s great. There’s no runoff like a Frank McGaughey run off. I, I love it. Um, I can edit and I’m leaving it all out.

So by talking to Mike maker, huh? Iconic little iconic Mike, big fan of his, but not the same thing in terms of the verbosity, but let’s move on and talk about, we’ll talk [04:53:00] about this loaded card from Frere grounds on Saturday. And we’ll start off with the mind shaft with you as our guests, getting the first stub bite at this Apple.

Frank, what do you think of this race? This race is tough. Uh, you know, quips not coming, right. He’s scratching out of here. I don’t have a strong opinion in the race. Harlin punch. I’m a big fan. When, when somebody new takes over a horse or a new jockey gets on and the horse performs, uh, um, big fan of it’s going to repeat, because obviously the horse liked whatever they did different or the way he was written.

So I see no reason to think that Harlem punch won’t show back up silver dust performed well. When the Calhoun barn wasn’t hitting on all cylinders and they are now, I mean, breadth that is 3000 wins this past weekend. And they went in a lot of races right now. Um, I think he has an outside chance. Lone sailor looks great training in the mornings.

I’m sure that that Amos is going to have him [04:54:00] ready. He’s not going to embarrass Mrs. Benson. Um, if she’s here because Tom is just way too smart for that. And then flame away has been trained and good here also. I think those are the main contenders. I don’t have a real strong opinion on this race. It’s not one of the races I’ll be betting individually, but if I’m, if I’m, you know, Rowan pick threes or pick four is for me, it’s two, four, five, and nine Harlin punch, silver, dusk, lone sailor, and flame away.

I’m a big lone sailor fan and think he’ll be right for his return to the races. I thought he had some reasons to run better for sure. He looks great in the flesh. He’s doing well. No doubt about it. Okay. Where are you with this one? Parlin punch for me as well. I thought the horse ran really good last few times for Brad Cox, since since 10 strike and the other guys got involved with him, I think he’s just going in the right direction.

I think he’s improving. Um, I think the added distance, you know, not the, at a distance they’re running the same distance, actually the mom 60. It’s [04:55:00] not going to be a problem for him at all. Drawn inside should get a good trip. I guess the goofy horse for me. That I could, that I could point to is one that, um, that doesn’t make a ton of sense on paper, but, but it is one that I think could run well as imperative and he’ll be a huge, right.

So the horse kinda, you know, he hasn’t really been running his best recently. Um, you know, he had an excuse last time. Right? Right. I mean, the surface wasn’t ideal. Um, he was running against a monster is 196 to one that day anyway. So it’s not like anyone thought he was going to run well, he’s going to be ignored in this race.

On the board. It’ll be 30 to one or more, and he could be something. Trying to hook up underneath he’s a game, little horse, and he could help you out with a urine pit. You feel like he’s more of a vertical underneath player. Would you use even use him on top JK? No. I mean, I probably wouldn’t use them on top in a, in a, you know, in a serious, you know, pick for play or whatever, but.

Now look, if you’re playing in a contest and you’re behind, he’s a great 30 to one shot to get you back into it. Uh, if you’re planning two inches [04:56:00] in a contest, he’s the type of horse you can use on your other entry, just in case at a big price. Uh, I need the type of horse I’d want second, third, and fourth.

And my exotics, I, I don’t really see them winning. I think all the horses that Frank mentioned have a much better chance of winning. So that’s going to put him fifth on that list. If I was going to use them, it’d be just for a penny. I got to say it. So when the 30 to one like that, uh, I got to say in that if you think they’ve got somewhat of a look at 30 to one pay to see them lose, just include them.

That’s great. Yeah. That’s terrific. This is a horse that I loved last time, a great wide open. I thought he was going to be Lucy wasn’t Lucy. I mean, he had to kind of work for it. They went pretty quick. Um, I think the added distance. Uh, and being drawn outside now is going to kind of get them that softer trip.

He won’t have to go ask quick, early, and I kinda liked him to turn the tables, a great wide open for me and affordably place trip. Uh, sit in second or third as they, as they go around there. I was a little interested in first. Primeo curious to get Frank’s take on this [04:57:00] race. So, so the first premium, great wide open the day that they ran was the last, uh, it was the 19th.

Um, we had a funny weather situation down here. A cold front came through about the fourth race that day. And when I tell you that these horses were running into 35 mile an hour winds up the back stretch, it, it was definitely an advantage to be tucked in like, First premium was interesting. Yeah. So I, I would, uh, out of those two, I prefer great wide open, but I think synchrony is way too much horse for both of them, myself.

He is trained in lights out and he was training unbelievable before the race of Del Mar. And I stepped out that day and I’m guessing that the instructions to Bravo, that they must’ve been. See how much trouble you can get them in from the start to the eighth pole and then get them in the clear when the lead has got like a nine lane lead [04:58:00] and run the last quarter.

It’s 21. Just so everybody that bet on him knows they would assess it. Just took it right in the, you know what, because that’s how it unfolded. Not much, not much pace to close into either there. I mean, either it was just excuse after, excuse for synchrony the last day. He’s a freak. He looks fantastic training.

I don’t see any way they’re going to hold him off at, on this with this stretch here at the fairgrounds. I mean, I think he’s sitting on an explosion the way the turf course was playing last week, we were in Vegas with the rails all the way out. It was the wider, the better, but yesterday, I don’t know if you guys saw the races here yesterday.

They got the rails. It’s set at zero again for the big weekend. And, uh, the turf race has said much more of an inside flow. Which I think definitely could help Jonathan’s pick great wide open because Graham’s riding them out of there. There’s no doubt about that. And he’s going to try to be forwardly placed towards the inside.

I actually think synchrony is the standout. [04:59:00] I threw some numbers of one, two, five, six, and 10 TIS. This lamb, sir, deadly digs, big chances, first premium and great wide open underneath. Um, not knowing who may get the better inside trip. I think synchrony is going to be a single for me. And you made that point about the wind.

I love that. Thank you for pointing that out. Maybe going to save me some money, that would be a disadvantage to horses on the lead and a big advantage to horses with cover. We see wind angles a lot in the UK races. When you have straight away, it’s a lot easier to tell how the wind affects horses, an oval where they’re running in both directions.

Sometimes it can be misleading, but typically I assume that wind was down the backstretch. So that whole way. The majority, it was, yes. The majority of the bag, the majority of the day, that’s the way the wind was blowing. Uh, it shifted every now and then, but that’s for the most part, that’s where it was. So anybody on a lead was, was taking it for the rest of the field.

Yeah, that’s fascinating. That’s a [05:00:00] great angle and something that people in this country could probably do well to pay a lot more attention to generally. And I know my friends in the UK will get their wind and. Oh, and again, it’s more straightforward over there because of the straight courses, but they’ll just get it from like a weather service.

I’m taking a wild guess. Frank, you’re doing that when, cause you’re standing out there in the wind and feeling which way it’s blowing or do you well, don’t look at any data. Well, it was that day. You could, I knew it because I don’t live far from the track and I could tell how the wind was blowing. You can see it in the, in the replace.

I mean the guy couldn’t hold the camera still. That’s amazing. I mean, it was, if you watch the replay of the lockup, You can see the camera shake and you can see a check, a number of the races that day. I mean, it was blowing. It was hard. Next we’re going to move on to the grade two, Rachel Alexandra erase that has had major Kentucky Oaks implications in many of the last years.

This is another one where one of the favorites in this case, the morning line, favorite chasing yesterday, I hear did not [05:01:00] get on the plane. Frank, do you think we still might have one in here who will be live com Kentucky Oaks day? And what do you think of the race as a whole. Uh, I do, and I wish Jason yesterday was on a plane.

Cause I was, I was pretty much against her. I was very impressed with positive spirits, race in New York. And after seeing her in the flesh, I’m impressed even more. She is one good-looking Philly and a needs supervision was really good on the 19th. And, but I’m not quite as certain she’s doing as well. But she, she won’t be an easy out and I don’t think she drew well, I think he got some speed in here.

Sarah, Gary efforts is going to show speed. I think multiple Bella will be forwardly placed. I like the cut back on positive spirit, one a mile and an eighth last time it’s cutting back the amount of 16th. And I think she sitting on another big effort. She impressed me. J K how do you see this one? Yeah, I agree with, with positive spirit.

Um, I, you know, after the race, I remember talking to someone, I don’t remember [05:02:00] who it was, but just about how. Positive spirit just kind of looked like that type of Philly, who she was ready to go a mile and an eighth when the other ones weren’t really ready to go a mile and an eighth. And why her demos?

Well, um, performance was as impressive as it was nothing to take away from her. I think she’s nice. I think she’ll continue to progress on, and hopefully she’ll have a bunch of seconds get into the Oaks and then I can play her there when she’s back at that mile and an eighth distance. But, you know, I thought Oxy lady was a little bit interesting, you know, we’ve, we’ve, I’ve, I’ve talked about Duke teas.

And how he kind of coached me up a long time ago on finding these two year olds that run these figures and then they come back and you can expect that, you know, a 10 to 12 point improve from two to three, just, just based on maturity at age. And, uh, if you look at Oxy lady, her, her race at aqueduct, she had a one Oh five time from us figure that day.

And that was back in November 2nd, that numbers, I think, is the best that any of these horses have running the field period. So if she can improve off of that performance, Uh, they thought enough of her to put her on the plane to try her in the grade ones, uh, starlet [05:03:00] at LaSalle. I, I, you know, obviously Calumets game and they’ll put them on a plane and go anywhere.

I think she could improve be a little bit sneaky at a price. Some of the obvious ones getting impersonal impersonal obviously takes some money, positive spirit, uh, need supervision. I’m gonna try to fly under the radar a little bit with Oxy Ladia at, I think six to one, if not better than six to one. I was a little intrigued by Eris to the number eight to maybe get a piece thinking Frank was right about the pace heating up.

Not sure if it will be enough to get her all the way to the winner’s circle, but seemed like an interesting one for the underneath slots in verticals. Any thoughts on her or any piggybacks onto what JK was saying? Frank? I definitely think Oxy lady has a look Eris true and needs supervision. I th I think the number in that race came back kind of slow.

I think the wind effected that number that day. Uh, it didn’t come back real high compared to need supervisions, uh, one turned mile at Churchill before that, especially not on the stuff I’m using. I’m just not sure about the overall quality of that field [05:04:00] that day. I mean, the supervision was good, but I just think that they’re facing a lot better today in Oxy lady.

And positive spirit. Let’s move on to the risen star, the featured race of the day. I’m sure you have some entertaining stories about risen stars of, of years past Frank, uh, wa those are the two characters. Leon is arisen stuff, literally resell it. And Ronnie Lamar’s story in itself. Did you, do you know those characters?

I don’t know him personally, but I mean, Ronnie Lamarque is a car dealer here. And he’s on TV, uh, constantly. What does commercials? Uh, he’s funny. He does some funny stuff on TV and, uh, and he just, you know, Louie’s been around the racetrack a long time. Uh, I don’t know if you know this, but a friend of ours, John Nichols, his uncle was risen stars, exercise rider, Jimmy Nichols, Jackie that’s right.

Yeah. And that story in itself was great. The risen star story [05:05:00] didn’t he run for a charity. That was always, he had, I’m not joking like a traveling group of nuns as his cheering section. Is that correct? Ronnie donated a portion of the winnings. Ronnie, Lamarque donated a push of the winnings to some group of nuns and, uh, they would have them on TV, all hooping.

Yeah. Yeah. It was great publicity for the, uh, for the, uh, car dealership. He didn’t miss any angle and Ronnie’s this Ronnie things too. I don’t know if you’re a member and the winners circle, the Belmonte son. Like New York, New York, the word he had changed the words to some risen star song find the video.

They just don’t register was a really good horse though. I mean, I remember seeing them in person. Yeah. Impressed. They’re very impressive. Definitely. One who gets lost in the conversation of horses who won two of the three triple crown races. You don’t often hear [05:06:00] people suggest that risen star might’ve been the best of those, but I, without.

The benefit of having speed figures in front of me. It sure it doesn’t sound crazy when you just look back at the PPS, right? Yeah, no, he was really good. No doubt about it. Who is going to win the race named after him, Frank? Well, I’m not sure who’s going to win. So I think the scratch of the Baffin horse Kingsley Kingsley is gonna have an outcome on this race.

Believe it or not. I didn’t like kingly, but depending on how in my mind, van Dyke rode him. Was gonna kind of depend on the kind of trip that we’re of will got world world was ultra impressive, winning that day. Yeah. Uh, in the cops and I, yeah, I liked him that day. I didn’t think we were getting anywhere near six to one and we didn’t.

But when I tell you that that is a horrible post going to Mount a 16th at the fairgrounds. I mean, it’s just not good. He’s going to be in the 13 hole. Now he, in my mind, I just don’t see any way that he’s not going to have to. [05:07:00] Use them somewhat cut position or maybe call on them early, then he wants to in this race and will it surprise me if he wins?

No, but I’m not betting on him in that spot. And I’m gonna take a shot against with Pliska parfait who had no trip last time he stumbled coming out of there. And I, I don’t think Brendan Welsh really had him fully cranked for that race. Um, he hadn’t trained them that Miami world will. It had some serious works before they will comp and, and Renick wash.

Didn’t lean on police with buffet. And I just don’t see how leparoux, doesn’t show up out of, out of the gate and secure his position, a good position early, and we’ll have a shot when they turn from home at these sources. And I’m guessing I don’t think that price is ready. The ten one. I think it it’d be more like six.

So I put paluska parfait on top. What surprised me, like I said, if we’re welcome, work out a trip and beat him, but those would be my top two. [05:08:00] After that, to fill in underneath these horses, I think, and hit the board. And in the only one I maybe could win in my mind would be limonite, who’s been training really good, but I’m thinking he might need one.

Um, the two Dallas Stewart horses, I think both got better with distance. They have a chance and adults see how many, why doesn’t take them a long way because. It seems like every big race at chanting Hills one. The last couple of years he’s been on the front end. And so I see them going again and he might carry them a long way.

It’s stuff. I wrote about this race for my friends at, at the races in the UK. And they’re with the benefit of the fixed odds betting, I thought the five to two on war of will was okay. I assume he’ll be shorter here based on the seeming advantages. Frank makes a great point about the things that should give pause, especially in a market where he might get bet down.

I’ll stick with war of will, because I already wrote about it, but. Part of my enthusiasm. Was that idea that you could lock in the five to two, do you [05:09:00] think he’ll be shorter than five to, to Frank? I do. I think it’d be in the eight to five range. Yeah. Seven to five, eight to five JK. What are your thoughts on the risen star?

It’s tricky. I feel like it feels like this race is always tricky. I don’t feel like it’s ever straightforward. I agree where we all was was fantastic. Last time. Uh, the post obviously is a concern and it’s even more of a concern coming from someone who watches fairgrounds races every day. You know, a lot of people will say, Oh, that post isn’t great, but yeah.

They’re just speaking without really knowing when Frank talks about fairgrounds, I listened. So that’s an important point. I’m really interested in the nine. I thought someone was gonna at least mention the horse for a little bit of a piece it’s country house, um, country house ran second in the maiden to Kentucky Wildcat.

He came back and ran well, uh, last weekend and the Sam F Davis. Uh, the other thing that I like to do is, is I pulled, um, the, the chart from the last race, the maiden race at Gulf stream with a horse, one missed the break. And one, the horse that ran third in that race has come back and proved his time form U S figure 20 points back to back you in an 82, the first time that he came one-on-one one-on-one.

[05:10:00] So I like to think, well of country house has the same 20 point improvement. Where does he fit here? Uh, and based on the way that he broke last time, the fact that it’s, that it’s mot coming off of, uh, off of a, you know, second off of a break. We, we know that he’s not cranking a Mach putting them on the plane.

I think country house is going to run well. Louis Sai has comes over, uh, from, uh, from a very strong colony and at gold stream. And I think the country house is going to be very interesting at 20 to one. He’ll probably come down a little bit off of that with name recognition, but I think he’s a, he’s definitely an interesting alternative.

I got a chance to see him in the flesh this week. He’s a good luck. He’s put Gatherwell. He is not physically imposing. There’ll be no mistake in him and hidden scroll. If they’re standing next to one another, I can’t knock anything. Jonathan said, I don’t know if he’s ready for this in this bigger field, but.

It’s not, nobody’s better than getting ready for a certain day. That bill Belmont bill Mott with a target, one of the angles we talk about all this time on the show. Frank, we’re going to take advantage of the fact that we have you here and ask you if there’s a race [05:11:00] or two on the undercard that you think our listeners should be taking a look at.

Well, you have a couple of really good and Baden races. The third came up well. Um, I was interested in new frontier. Who was the athletes and horse that took a, had been training really good, took a lot of money. First time he ran that day was sloppy that he, he debuted and he wound up chasing outside kind of against the flow of the race.

I think he’s going to run a lot better and bourbon calling. He closed? Well that his last effort, I don’t think he’ll be as far back and he’s trained well. So those two horses would be my top two, the Bentley comms horse, the eight, keeping it classy. He didn’t run bad. He was a big number. I actually used them that day.

That was, I was at Gulf stream that they watch it from the OTB at Gulf stream. That was a turf race that came off and he really went and left that in a 33, one, one 33 to one. He was that day. I don’t think he will be that price on Saturday, but those are the three I give the biggest look. Two in there that’s a good [05:12:00] eat.

And then the fifth race is another really good heat. I was embarrassed. I went from my majestic Rose pretty good the other day, stretching out thinking that was the thing. And she stumped, but I see your teas is getting them out. I’m not looking to jump on to bet on her, but I’m curious to see how she runs.

I can’t believe I was at wrong horse at a price that I think will run good JDS girl. They could run a lot better. Then her first effort at Churchill, that horse is trained really good here. Um, Roman ice, the Calhoun horse is trained good. And the other Calhoun that’s on the list. I don’t know if she gets in blinkers, that horse is owned by Brett’s wife.

And, uh, Shantelle Salone has worked that horse twice. I’ve seen the work of a gate and that horse can fly she’s fast. So that’s one, even if they eat lists, doesn’t happen here, maybe one to pop in the horses to watch for a future appearance. Potential. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. Excellent. Well, Frank, we want to thank you so much for your time.

We took nearly an hour today, and again, we’re going to be calling you [05:13:00] again soon. You don’t realize that’s the problem. When you do such a good job, we’re going to want you back sooner rather than later. So he has a deal. I’ll probably be doing the same thing. Thing, but I’ll be in a bar later. So what’s the difference.

I’ll do it later. Right? That’s great. And we appreciate that you pick up that’s our vibe, you know, we always want to be the show where it sounds like you’re sitting around with your buddies, the guys, the girls, whomever, and just talking race and telling old stories and hopefully finding a couple of winners.

Listen, I’m glad to help in any way that we can turn people on to be as passionate about the sport. As I know, the three of us are, um, the more, the better, because it really is the greatest game out there. Thank you, Frank. Bye. Okay. There you have it from Frank. McGaughey great stuff from him. J K and just such a pleasure to get somebody so old school and so sharp to talk to us in the listeners for a while.

Absolutely. Uh, it’s a, it’s always fun for us. I think when we get to have these conversations personally and out in the world and at the [05:14:00] race track, and then we get to kind of duplicate them and let, let the listeners hear that. The fun, interesting story that we get to, we get to hear out there at the right, any other races from the weekend.

You wanted to talk about anything else going on before we sign off this edition of the, in the money players podcast. You said those DVR’d, your boys is back on Monday on, on Fox, Saturday at the races. It’s actually going to be a Monday, but same, same show title. Um, so I’m heading to Oaklawn for the, for the second or third, second time in my life.

Be hanging out there on Monday. So check, uh, check out the, the Fox sports, uh, broadcast. Will you be seeing our friends from 10th strike? I have messaged a few of them. I believe that clay might be around. And then Marshall was, was thinking about coming. So he might, I might’ve influenced his decision there.

Have you looked at the Southwest stakes yet? Is that the feature on Monday or is that Sunday? I believe it’s on Monday. I think that’s why we’re doing the show on Monday, but I’m not sure if it’s drawn yet. I don’t think, I think they draw it today. Okay, well, maybe you’ll well, no, make people watch the [05:15:00] show.

I was going to say you could tweet, but you gotta tune in. If you want to hear what JK has to say about the Southwest and the rest of that card, I’ll be in transit heading down to a Napa naturalists, Maryland this weekend to see the in-laws should be fun. Might try to check out a Navy basketball game and always just find to spend time with family.

And I’m sure there will be some checking of phones and wagering going on at the same time. I hope so. I hope so. It makes sure you said that in DVR PTA. No doubt about it. I will be there.  it is Fox Saturday at the races. You will be on approximately four Eastern on Monday. Check your local listings as they say, and that’s going to do it for this episode of the, in the money players podcast.

I want to thank Jay. Kay. I want to thank Frank McGaughey. I want to thank our sponsors the first two to come on board. Thoroughbred retirement foundation. And of course our friends at 10 strike, I’m going to send you one more time to my just giving page [05:16:00] for the London landmarks, half marathon already donations pouring in.

I appreciate it very much. You can find that link. Pinned to my Twitter at looms boldly. I’ll also put it in our blog page, in the money Most of all, I want to thank all of you. The listeners been so great to get to know more of you over the last few weeks, whether it’s via the great notes we’ve been receiving on Twitter and by the blog or the in-person conversations at the various bars at treasure Island in Las Vegas, as part of our ongoing and HC coverage throughout the past weekend.

That’s it, we will be back on Monday or Tuesday. Not sure when I’m going to post the next episode, that will be a full interview with NHC winner. Scott Coles. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. May you win all your photos.

[05:17:00] how phenomenal is that guy? By the way?

He’s like, he’s like the degenerate uncle. I want to have. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I may have to put that at the end of the show. Actually, the fans will enjoy that, that version of the, of the pod.

 Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. Hello, and welcome to the end. The money players podcast. This is show number 15. It is February 12th, 2019 Lincoln’s birthday. I believe back in the Brooklyn bunker. Wow. What a [05:18:00] weekend out in Las Vegas for the national. HorsePlayers championship. We’re going to be talking about that on this show, going to be talking a little bit about the racing from last weekend as well.

We’ll have more NHC coverage coming up. Scott Coles was meant to be on the show today, a little bit of travel trouble, getting back to Chicago. And I figured, you know what, why don’t we wait, give him a few days of perspective and then we will bring him in. I’m a believer in several broadcasting principles as a spouse, by one of my mentors in the field VIN scelsa in addition to my father, one of those, the old wew DJs.

And he would say at the beginning of his show all the time that you should respect your elders and embrace the new and what an opportunity we had to do that. At the NHC final table, great stories like that. Of Chris Littlemore bidding to become the first ever two time [05:19:00] winner and making two final tables in a row.

Jim Meeks, trying to be the first one to win two proper majors. He’s already gotten a horseplayer world series win and he was going after the NHC title ends up running second and Oh, by the way, he had a heart attack on super bowl Sunday. Almost didn’t make it down to the NHC. That is the elders’ stories to tell.

And then as for embracing the new, how about Scott Coles? How about Matt? . How about Marshall Graham? Low key, uh, Marshall Graham having as good a run and tournaments is anyone I can remember in recent memory with the fifth at the breeders’ cup contest coming right back and getting that. Right to the final table anyway, amazing stuff going on at the NHC and to talk about it all going to bring in my co-host.

He was competing in the event. You know him, you love him. Not only is he the people’s champion, he’s the [05:20:00] most electrifying man in all of horseplaying, at least according to the TDN Jonathan kitchen. I use use the term participating in the NHC, uh, lightly. I didn’t do much participating. I was had a rough half out.

I had a rough run of it, uh, last week, uh, last weekend. So, uh, we’ll see. Maybe next year we’ll do a little bit better, but it’s a, it’s a hard contest and it’s a, it’s a frustrating contest and not do well in just because of, of, of the prestige of it and the opportunity to have that big score and, and, uh, for whatever reason, just couldn’t get it.

Couldn’t get it. Rolling. Putting your personal story aside. I do not think it’s an exaggeration to call it the greatest NHC of all time for leaderboard changes at the final table. A great day of action. So many stories, and the end was just tremendous. I mean, despite the promise of the final table, let’s face it.

Pick a word JK to describe the first, uh, five or so runnings before [05:21:00] this one. I think boring, you know, in all honesty, the, the first five final tables, a person going in to the lead one. Um, and so I think that there, there was no change. There, there was no shift. There was no excitement in, and those. You know what I mean?

Maybe a little bit of excitement, but not, not the level that we saw this year with all the changes and, and the, uh, people hitting horses. And, and like you said, the leaderboard changes happening and everyone going into that last race, uh, three guys were drawing live to win $800,000 of the two horses that were under three to one or under four to one.

I think that that’s, uh, an exciting moment after, after 36, 46, 53 different races, you end up in this situation where. Uh, a three to one shock. And when you $800,000, and I think that that’s kind of. Uh, the excitement you’re looking for. And the final title reminded me of a long race in England, after miles at Cheltonham going up the Hill and you’ll see two or three [05:22:00] horses separated by a half a length.

It was a bit like that. And the excitement level was palpable. It was great to be in the ballroom. And this was with the horrible luck. Maybe, I shouldn’t say horrible luck. So much as bad planning that led us to having a four horse race as our nightcap at the final table. But it almost didn’t matter because you did have it play out on the track.

With covered horses, doing all the running in that race. Eventually Scott, Kohl’s getting it done. And I just have to take a minute to brag. How amazing to have at least finishers one, three, and nine, all be big fans of the, in the money players podcast. JK, did you get to talk to any of those guys about that?

I did. I did. I saw Scott actually yesterday morning. He was, he was having a rough go of it. He couldn’t find his, he had, he had been a couple of futures on himself. Oh, no, I couldn’t find the tickets. I told them [05:23:00] that I didn’t think it would be an issue. If you went to the window, they’d be able to look up at all the cameras and, and probably give them the money.

I don’t think Tony would have a problem taking care of that. So hopefully he got that sorted out yesterday, but no, I did get a chance to talk to them, both. And, um, uh, and, uh, Scott and Matt, you mentioned the first and third players were, or younger, younger. When I say younger, I just say younger than the average yeah.

In the room. So no offense to anyone. I just think the 34. 35 and 36 are younger than the average age in the room. And so I did have a chance to talk to him a little bit about, uh, kind of their involvement in racing and, and how they, uh, listen to the show and always, always flattering to hear that people take the time to listen to us.

Carry on. Younger by a couple of decades. I think JK, if you’re talking on average at 34 and 37, I could be wrong about that, but that’s certainly my sense of it from looking around the room. It was great to see them. And of course, a Marshall 10 strike racing. One of the first sponsors to come on board the show and a guy who’s obviously become a good friend.

[05:24:00] Great to see those names up there on the list, bored. And I wonder. Is it randomness that we had guys younger than 40 in first and third. I mean, even when we were doing the world HorsePlayers tour, I was so proud of the fact that we had whatever it was six of the seven at the final table being under 40.

And I even pointed to the NHC as a bit of a counterpoint saying, you know, it’s going to be very rare that you get somebody. Younger than say 50, or maybe even 55 there this year. Really put the lie to that with three people, at least in that no more. I mean, Steve-O also as horse racing young, you had a half the final table being in the younger demographics.

Is this something that’s changing or was this a bit of randomness?

Yeah, I don’t think it’s necessarily a change in the guard. I still think that there’s always going to be more players participating in the NHC and these events [05:25:00] that are over that, that quote unquote cut line of the average age in the room. I just think that there’s probably. Uh, just a little bit more youth coming to the party, uh, based on some of the things we’ve seen in the past that, you know, with, with, uh, with just, you know, the podcast and, and, um, you know, HorsePlayers show obviously that shows still is resonating and, and, uh, and, and kind of attractive to more of the youth.

So I don’t think it’s really, I don’t think it’s a, you know, the next final tables going to be all young guys and, and there’s never going to be another 67. And when the NHC, I just think there’s probably a few more young guys participating than there has been in the last five. The 10 years you mentioned HorsePlayers and it definitely deserves credit.

Robert Gilbert, 68 years old, started playing in contests from seeing the horseplayer show. He made a deep run was in the lead for a very long time. Using a very unique strategy of essentially from what I heard pick and praying the deal, putting in the picks in the morning and then going off to do whatever he was going to do, presumably doing [05:26:00] some more bedding, but doing it in a quiet, controlled environment.

I wonder if he used the same routine on the third day, he went cold. He still hung around and still ends up at the final table and cashing a nice check. But I wonder if I wonder if he used the same strategy. And do you think JK, if, what do you think he should have done? Yeah, we should have done whatever it got him to that point.

Um, I’ll tell you what, that’s a very challenging way to play that contest. And I look not, not necessarily a bad way. I think a lot of times it’s the stress that comes in that contest is decision-making. And I think a lot of guys can always point to a good decision they made and they can always point to a bad decision they made, whether they won a weather or they, whether they got last.

And I think that if you were to just pop all your stuff in early in the day, Uh, you probably end up in the same position that you ended up with anyways, where you made a couple of good decisions, a couple of bad ones. So, um, I would think that that, that, it’s, it’s a, it’s a useful strategy for some, for [05:27:00] some people I I’d rather keep it kind of open where I can see where some of the odds are going, but I can see how, how he could help out though, by just getting you on a horse, no matter what that you liked in the morning, regardless of the price.

I think it probably depends on what his normal playing style is, whether or not it’s a good. Idea to do what he did. Cause we also know that on these Sundays, it’s a little bit different in the semi-final round. You’re going to have so many people firing at long shots cause they have to get up into contention.

I could make the point. That unless he’s somebody who’s typically finding those longer priced horses that he played so effectively on days one and two. I mean, personally, if he asked me for advice, I would have said, well, you definitely still have to play who you’ll like, and that shouldn’t eliminate reaching for higher prices, but you’re certainly in a position if you’re in that top five heading into the third day where you can reach way lower.

In my opinion, to just if the horse, if that’s the horse, you like to just keep accruing points. [05:28:00] Absolutely. I think the, the, the tricky part at the end is, is you’ve you, you kind of have to change it up a little bit because you’ve put yourself in a position by playing a certain way. And like you mentioned, once you kind of get to that top five, you can really start to hone in on horses that are lower, lower prices to keep moving you up.

And it can be the difference between five, 10, 15, 20,000. Or, or considerably more if you’re talking about making it all the way to the final table, another word on Chris, a little more. How amazing was that JK to see somebody at the final table, two years in a row, did you get a chance to talk to him? What did you think of that performance?

I got to shake his hand and just tell him congratulations. It’s it’s a, it’s a phenomenal, phenomenal accomplishment accomplishment to be able to. Uh, make it to the, you know, make it to the, make it, the cut two years in a row is impressive. Right. Uh, winning the event and then making the final table is another thing that’s even more impressive.

So definitely deserves a lot of credit for that. And it seems like we’ll probably be seeing his name. Uh, quite a bit more down the [05:29:00] line. So, you know, you have this reputation for playing chalk at various times. Did you see Paul Sherman’s maneuver essentially of how he made the semifinals? It puts you to shame.

I didn’t actually notice what did he take? A bunch of chalk and one, not a bunch of chalk, but one in particular. We’d had this conversation before about. How short of a price would you take? And usually when we talk to people about that, we end up talking about how short would you take in a mandatory, but he noticed how tight the banding was late in the contest as players were trying to get in that top 67 to make the semifinals and decided that the $4 and 40 cents or whatever it was from Bella Faena would be the difference in putting him over the top.

He played Bellfina in the NHC. Made me think of you. That’s impressive. Very impressive. There’s more to the story and it’s all going to be archived on Steve days worth of coverage of the [05:30:00] event. I think there might be some digested coverage as well that you might want to check out. There are some sickos who will listen to all 20 plus hours and kudos to you if you’re one of them, but there are some really great moments.

I don’t. I feel bad, highlighting a few people because I’m leaving out others who were great, but especially Paul Matisse, especially Paul Sherman’s visits, great stuff from Bay. Chuck, great stuff from Chris Alarmy it was really just a ton of fun. I can’t believe how close I came to not going based on what a great experience it was.

Not least of which was meeting other listeners. John Pender. Another, who comes to mind as somebody who is a real pleasure to meet in the treasure Island ballroom great run. He gave it to just fall short and another Texas horseplayer for you and Nick tomorrow to hang out with. Absolutely. I mean, anytime you could find another guy from Texas, it’s always an accomplishment.

So, um, I was happy to meet Johnny sat with us at the banquet [05:31:00] at the, uh, Awards banquet. So hopefully we’ll get to spend a little extra time with him down the line of serum. Sure. He’ll probably start traveling a bit more and getting involved in some of these live money contest. So that’s a great double segue because we’re talking about people who are great on with me and big and talking about the awards banquet.

Got to talk about Dave. . I thought he played great after getting blanked on day one, just to get early in the day, one of his two entries up into contention up to you ended up with about one 48. So he fell about 40 bucks short of making the cut line, but I thought it was a gutsy performance to not let that negative momentum, snow him under and to come back and make a run.

What did you think of day’s performance? What did you think of his remarks at the NHC dinner? When you start off cold like that, like, and like I did as well. I think I ended the first day with 40 bucks, um, which is double zeros. Yeah, your 40 bucks is [05:32:00] nothing compared to double zeros. No. Right. And that’s what I’m saying is that the, the mental effect of 40 took on me, I can only imagine what the zero took on him, you know?

And so that’s the part that, that I think is definitely needs to be commended. Like you mentioned, I just to stay the course and to come back the next day and to find a way to get it. You know, 140 bucks in one day, probably frustrating knowing that if he could have got a little, a little lucky on day one, what the day that he had on day two, he might’ve been right there in the mix, uh, to get to that, to that cut line and make the semi-finals.

But, um, You know, it’s, it’s a lot of pressure and, and, and he, it obviously affected him in certain ways. Just it’s, it’s a lot of pressure. It’s a once in a lifetime opportunity, I get where he was coming from. As far as the speech, I thought it was, you know, I thought it was good. Like, you know, and he had Twitter admitted it like long, but he just had a lot of things he wanted to say.

And a lot of things that, that, uh, he’s passionate about. And, and he, and he, uh, took that opportunity to, to, um, To say some of those things. [05:33:00] And so, um, you know, I, I thought for sure, no, whatever break my record for, Oh, you got flown out of the water. It was a secretariat, like margin compared to, I know, I think I, I think mine was like eight or nine minutes and I mean, I had it, I clocked it at about 18 it’s up there on I Periscoped it.

And I think I have, I put the setting on Periscope where it’s still there. I think if you want to go back and check it out through my Twitter, I really thought he got into some. Interesting ideas about this event, the history of this event and where we go from here. I did not think I’d have to go back and listen, but I don’t think there were any low blows.

It really felt above board. And I think you can tell that this guy, despite what he’ll tell you sometimes really does still have some love for racing and for contests that he can’t, he can’t quite quite quit them. And he has tried, but he can’t quite quit them. And I just, I liked the idea of having him based on the ideas he gave out at the dinner.

[05:34:00] Hopefully willing in one form or another, maybe through agents, such as ourselves JK, as opposed to dealing with any of the politics of the business, which if I were him, I would definitely be over some of the things that have happened to him as far as that goes. But I’m certainly somebody who is not opposed to the idea of taking some of his best ideas and trying to continue to fight the fight.

And with that in mind, looking at the NHC. Where do we go from here? JK, is it a case where, uh, someone like me who’s been critical of the way the third day works before and is believed that maybe you need to do more to stimulate action and stimulate action at the final table, just because it worked out great this year, you know, does that mean I should be quiet and we shouldn’t fix this because it’s not really broken?

Or do you think there are things that can and should be done to take what’s a great event and make it better? Maybe considerably better. I think there’s definitely things you can do to, to, to enhance it and to kind of [05:35:00] guarantee the excitement that was that we saw this year. And we haven’t seen in the years past not completely sure that a wholesale change will, will go over well.

Um, you know, there’s all these little ideas that, you know, you toss around with people or things that you could do and final table becomes live money. So now all of a sudden everybody’s back in it and you can. That those seven races with conviction rather than the mythical, $2, something like that. You know, those are conversations like that could be had.

One of the, one of the changes that I think that, that, uh, myself and Paul Matisse and, and I think I talked to probably four other players that are on the players committee is on day two to move the mandatories up in the day. Because forcing players to look at races, they might not look at, and they mathematically pick 27 to one shots or 15 to one shots because they’re in a race.

They wouldn’t normally be in. It’s problematic to the outcome. Yes. And that happened this year. You had a long shot that got that long shot at Santa Anita. [05:36:00] It was, I think the only capper in the race may be. So you had hundreds of people potentially playing that horse that had nothing to do with anything other than the number on the board.

So by moving the mandatories earlier in the day, you would prevent that from happening. You’d have, if you wanted to play that horse, you could, but you’d have to save a bullet to do it. That’s a very interesting idea. I never thought of. Right. And then also the race before that was a 27 to one at Oakland on that Calvin Burrell went on.

So, um, and it’s, it’s unfair for the people that love the horse. I actually think the horse gets cheap in the model of the contest. That’s terrible. I mean, it’s great. Cause you hit it right. But like, if you love it, that’s a horse. You would have moved up. If it’s an optional race, you move up much closer to alone within the economy of the contest.

It’s just worth a lot more. It gets very cheap. The old. Those horses 20 to one on the board, two to one in the room, there is something to that. Right. I agree. And I also think that, you know, this is probably never going to [05:37:00] change, but, and this is probably a more me thing than any, but I know a lot of people will agree is this idea that, that let’s find the most chaotic race that we possibly can and make it a mandatory it’s just to me, that’s not, it, that’s not a real representation of the game, what it is to make money in this game.

10 claimer from Oaklawn with nine horses coming off of the layoffs six, you know, off trainer changes. And it, you know, it just becomes like, almost like a guessing game rather than a eight horse field where seven of them can win. I think I just find that to be. A much more attractive way to, to find out who the, you know, who the best handicapper in the three-day weekend is.

Um, but that’s just, you know, I guess that’s probably more me than, than anything else, but the, the, the, the idea about the mandatories, I think that we’ll, we’ll do our best to try to get that adjustment made for next year. What else have you heard? What other reactions have you heard from other players, whether on the players committee or just your fellow [05:38:00] participants?

That was really one of the ones that, that, that I heard the most, you know, in talking to Paul and talking to some of the other guys, that’s pretty much it. I don’t think I, I don’t think we really had any other conversations. The other storylines from the event itself experiences, et cetera. We’ve been fortunate enough.

Someone from our tables has made it to the final table the last few years. And that’s always fun to have someone to root for. Um, you know, it’s always a bummer when you don’t make the semi-finals, it’s always a bummer when you don’t make the final table, but when you have a friend. Uh, or seatmate or someone that you care about that’s doing it.

It’s always fun to have someone to cheer for. It makes the ending that much more exciting. And so we were obviously really happy for Marshall and the accomplishment that he had of, of, of making that final table. And so, um, that was fun. Uh, it’s never a dull moment, uh, with, with the Mattise crew they’ve been brought around, they brought along rich April who’s, uh, a character in his own, right.

He was on with us. He was on with me and Vic for a while. Yeah. He was full of jokes the entire weekend. He was just, he was, uh, [05:39:00] making fun of me for drinking Modelo telling me I was drinking the expensive beer.

That’s pretty funny from a guy whose nickname is Richie rich. Richie Richard kept making fun of me for not coming to play craps with him. After one night, I told him on my life I’ll be there, but I ended up in the room and I passed out. He was wearing me out for that. So those were exciting moments downstairs.

I want to talk to you about Frank drew for a second, because he’s also connected with the Matisse crew because he is Tony’s stepfather. Was he sitting with you guys? He was, he was sitting, uh, we had like four tables. It was a, you know, my, they know me, Nick Marshall, that group. And then there was, you know, Nick, Nate newbie and, and, and some, some people that kind of came and went and James Henry, and then there was a Duke and Paul had two tables and, and, and, uh, Frank was sitting in kinda like the second table with John Nichols and Frank McGaughey that group.

Speaking of Frank McGaughey, we’re going to have him as a guest on Friday to look at this loaded [05:40:00] fairgrounds card. Production meeting in the middle of the show. I thought that would be a lot of fun. And then you mentioned James Henry, you had an anecdote about him. Yeah, the jazz man. He, he, uh, he had, uh, Luke came into town, so he, I think he drug James out a little, a little late one night.

So James kind of punished himself and like found this like little nook over to the side and like made himself sit back there. And so like sitting dark over there to find them he had a good run didn’t he end up in the semi-finals and other guy, there were several players who’ve won the horseplayer world series.

Who were bidding to make history? We mentioned Jim Meeks, there was James Henry, and I think there was one other dude, but I don’t really remember it. Yeah. I don’t either. Let’s move on to talk about the racing this weekend. J K and we’ll start off with the Derby prep of the bunch. It was the Sam Davis at Tampa Bay, little bit of a surprising result.

Have you had a chance to rewatch it or [05:41:00] reflect on this one at all? Um, no, I hadn’t. I mean, I, I didn’t rewatch it. Um, I, I watched it, you know, the first time, obviously the horse made a little sense was interesting in the Breeder’s cup. Juvenile is a little bit of a longer press thing. Mike Smith rode the horse in that race.

I was on Kentucky Wildcat. I thought Kentucky Wildcat was going to run big in the race. Um, I built a lot of my, um, uh, little plays, uh, in that moment around Kentucky Wildcat is a horse I wanted to play in the contest, but going off at five to two, made it a little bit more challenging. Um, ended up getting a band off and is injured.

Apparently. Did you hear that? I did hear that. I heard that, uh, dolphin and had some, some sort of I to say, look at maybe a knee injury or something. Do you remember what it was? Exactly. Knee sounds right. Oh, I’d have to check, uh, the articles it’s, uh, hopefully sounds like it is not life-threatening, but presumably career threatening and certainly Derby threatening and that horse ran pretty well.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I thought he ran a really the big [05:42:00] race back in December. And that was kind of the race that, that led me to wanting to consider him. And obviously the, the, the breeding was there with, with that horse. And I just don’t, I, it just felt like one that could kind of continue to progress. Um, but, uh, he, you know, well-defined kind of freaked on the day, a little bit finding the Marty McGee article here.

Condel our fracture off the Derby trail, the winner who we never named. Well-defined for Kathleen O’Connell with Pablo Miralis up stone hedge, LLC. The buyer came back pretty strong, a 93, but I do wonder if this isn’t one who gets brave on the lead and might have a little bit of trouble as we progress down the Derby trail.

What do you think. He’s definitely one. When you have speed, that’s always something you got to consider. It’s a, it’s a weapon that, that, uh, I think is very useful in these races when these horses are trying to stretch out and, and, and being forward in those situations can usually help you find a way to get it done.

And I think well-defined is, is the type of horse who could continue to progress it and be a problem for people. I don’t [05:43:00] think he’s, uh, the type that I’m going to run downstairs in the wind sports book and see if I can’t get a future bet on. But, uh, he’s definitely one that, uh, you want to keep an eye on just based on his, his tactics and automatically we’ll see him back in the Tampa Bay Derby.

That’s some breaking news. The, when, uh, in the post Avello era is back doing Derby futures. I had heard they were not, no, I’m just joking. They’re not, but I’m just, I was. You were being cheeky, you’re being something. Any other thoughts coming out of that race? Nick’s go. Who I expected at least to be best of speed.

Did not, was not at least not in that spot. No coming off of a little bit of a break. I mean, obviously the type of horse that has shown some promise earlier in his, you know, his two year old or late in this two year old year had the little bit of a break first race back over a new racetrack. I’ll forgive them a little bit.

Let’s see if he shows up somewhere else. Uh, and his training training. Well, he didn’t run well then. But, uh, there’s excuses that he could have for that. No, you make some good points and should [05:44:00] be back as a much longer price when next scene, after over-performing as a long shot, a couple of times last year.

So some good notes on that one, as far as the Derby trail goes, a lot of chatter about global campaign who had that big maiden win. Back on January 5th at Gulf stream, the buyer came back strong. Some figure makers had it even higher, and it just was a very stylish, visually impressive performance comes back in the AI other than wins pretty easily.

But this time, at least the buyer figure did not like the race so much. It looked great. I was surprised to see the figure come back as low as it was. And we’ve also seen the form of the first race franked because the Chad Brown trained second place finisher in there came back to win. I think it was on Sunday.

That was growth engine. What was your thought about global campaign and how do you reconcile the impressive [05:45:00] looking performance with potentially at least on the buyer scale? The lower figure? I agree. It was visually impressive and he’s the type of horse that will, we’ll always kind of garner. Attention at this point, he’s kind of had the two wins and he’s a half the bull Doro.

And so there’s, there’s so many things about that that will continue to, to get him attention. And like you said, the visual impressive one this weekend, but he’ll be a bet against for me moving forward based on the figures, just not being that strong. Um, if you’re, if you’re going to be a person who believes in figures, these are the types of opportunities you’re looking for a horse that’s going to be.

A bet more than they should be based on the performance that’s likely to happen. And based on the figures, he feels like he’ll be up against it when he goes in a greatest stakes company and his next start and face some of these other monsters that are now to clarify. Have you seen other figures than the buyer?

I would. I would reserve judgment. I wouldn’t, I agree with what you’re saying in principle, if the figures across the board come back weak, but we have seen instances where time form will have it one [05:46:00] way our figure, making friends we’ll have it one way. And buyer, has it another way, or have you seen more info on this?

Well, the time form had one Oh seven, um, for the Saturday’s performance one Oh nine for the maiden wins. So that’s stronger than the buyer right there. Right. Pretty close. Um, but. You know, the it’s tricky because the horses behind him made big jumps on their figures. You know, you had a horse go from 81 Oh one Oh four at 91 to a hundred.

94 to eight 99, 60 to a 98, a couple of them matched a little bit. So, uh, it, it, obviously it was a tough number to make when there’s, there’s such a big gap in between buyer and time form. So we’ll have to see what comes back out of the race. I’d imagine. That some of these were run back before global campaign does.

Um, I would think global campaign might take a little bit of a break here and point for something like the Florida Derby, or maybe they’ll try to get cute and take him to the Tampa Bay Derby. But I don’t think we’ll see, we’ll see some of these other horses run back, get a better idea. How good the figure was.

I no [05:47:00] longer have it in front of me, but the. Buyer was I believe 75, 77, something like that. So a significant, if you do the conversion of just minus 20 on the time format, that’s a pretty big difference right there. So something to keep an eye on something to pay attention to going forward. I think we’re both.

A L a hair skeptical. I agree with JK when it comes between trusting the eyes and looking at the numbers, I’m going to probably default to the numbers. At least when it comes to a horse, that’s going to presumably take a lot of money where he next shows up, but we’ll take a look. The son of Curlin. And certainly a talented runner and that first race against so impressive.

And that was so strong on the clock. And to have that Frank with the Brown horse winning certainly one who is going to be appearing on lists for those who make lists. Did I tell you I’m writing? It’s not a list, but I am writing a series of articles for my friends at, at the about the Derby this year.

Did I even tell you about [05:48:00] that yet? And you didn’t. I think, I think maybe you mentioned something about it, but we hadn’t gotten to detail. So fill me in well, been fun. It’s basically just not unlike what we do on the show reviews and previews of the races relevant to the triple crown. So I’ll just go a little bit more into depth than what we’re able to do typically on the podcast, put it in writing and really put it through the prism of.

What’s of interest to the UK punter looking to follow along on the Derby trail, sky sports racing, where I’m the USA correspondent covering the Derby and Preakness and Belmont, and many of the prep races leading up to it. So it’s just a chance to give them a way in. And then if I see something interesting in terms of a betting opportunity coming into the weekend, I’ll try to point those out as well.

We’ll have an usually have access to the prices. On Thursday or Friday. And that leads me to a very good question. I got last night about value. This is a question really geared [05:49:00] towards folks who are in the UK, but I think that the lesson of it applies to folks no matter where they’re betting in the world.

So I think we’ll do it here. And the question was, if there’s a horse that is a much bigger price that you can get your fixed odds from a bookie the day before or the morning of, or even right before the race. Is that something you always want to gravitate towards? Even if there might be a question about the horse and the example was maybe it’s a horse, a lot of steam, supposedly good workouts, six to one on the tote.

The book he has at 14 to one is that. A good bet. And the answer as with so many things in gambling is it depends in this hypothetical example that the guy mentioned, maybe the horse has a history of breaking slowly. All right. Well, in that specific example, if Clockers had like seen a new gate work or something, and it seemed like all systems go, that’s all positive information.

And the 14 to one on the horse, that’s six [05:50:00] to one of the tote is probably value the six to one. That’s a number created. From real money being bet the 14 to one, that’s a bookie making up a number. That number is much more likely to be wrong than the crowd who is actually very, very wise. There is a ton of signal when you’re looking at tote markets, all that said.

Value should be more about what price do you think the horse should be an is the price longer than that? I can’t look at it any other way. I respect the wisdom of the crowds, but I can’t defer to them completely to me. And I’ll do this sometimes at a big race, all make a hundred percent odds line on every horse folks in the UK.

This is a great thing to be able to do when you can get the fish price. You’re going to want to look to bet the horses that are bigger than that line, who cares if the horse is heavily, heavily bet on the tote, if you didn’t like it anyway. In that same example, you had the [05:51:00] 14 to one at 20 to one. I don’t care that the tote says it’s six to one.

That’s not value because in my estimation, the horse should have been the price that makes it not value based on the available opportunity. Your thoughts on value JK and how it factors into your. Analysis. I know you’re more of a selection oriented player. You’ve said you try to create value through your bedding, but just in terms of your handicapping, surely there’s some relationship to it.

Or one of the things what’s tricky about this weekend, you know, the UNHC itself is it changes the way that I play on a daily basis. Right? It’s like I’m looking for courses that I think provide value based on my ability to build tickets solely around them. When other people are using multiples, other multiples in the race, or they’re betting the multiple inefficiently, then there’s an opportunity for value there.

And that’s what I look for when I’m normally looking. But then when [05:52:00] you play in a contest, like the NHC value is different in that situation. You, you you’re limited the plays, your limited to pressing your opinion. So you want to try to find horses that, that offer more value in the, in the terms of like, you know, 10 to one, 12 to one, when they should be five to one, six to one, finding those horses or horses that are 20 to one that should be eight to one or whatever that is.

Or, or even just a 20 to one that should be 20 to one that you think has a live shot. And 20 to one is worth a lot of money in that contest. It’s, it’s a very valuable. Thing to have. So for me, value is, is always been whether it’s sports betting or horses or anything is, is, am I getting paid more than, than I should if I’m right, based on the odds of it actually happening.

And, and, and that can just be a mental thing. It can be a feel thing. It could be a purely math thing. Where are you going to lay it all out on paper? Usually it’s a field for me. Um, and like I said, by trying to build around a horse that could be four to five and a multi race bet where I’m going to [05:53:00] have a $20.

Pick three or whatever it might be, um, that that’s one way to go about it, but there’s other ways to go about it as well. So just finding value is, is ultimately the most important thing. If you’re going to play this game or any other gambling game day in, day out, I think we’ve described value very well.

Contests change it. They change it a whole lot, especially live band contest, and we’ll get to that in a minute, but even in mythical money contests, I think the best players are probably using some element of fantasy sports strategy at this point. And this is a topic I want to have Garrett schema on here to discuss.

And it relates a little bit to the point we were making before about how a horse is a price on the board, but within the environment of the contest can be a different price. And this goes in both directions, right? There’s the example of the cap horse that everybody has. So is de facto worth less. And then there’s the example.

Of the horse who’s worth more than whatever his price is [05:54:00] simply because some people won’t play the horse. Now, Scott Coles made a great example of this by having, I can’t remember if it was a 20 to one shot in a seven horse field or something now. On the show with Steve Beck, I talked to Dave Goodfried about those type of horses and I was theorizing very much like Scott ended up doing that.

They’d be worth more because so many fewer people in the contest would have him. Dave’s point was I don’t even look at six and seven horse fields because half the money you bet in a contest like the NHC. Is to place. And you know, you’re going to get chiseled on your place price in the short field favorites, going to be so likely to run second, even if it’s not the favorite.

If the price can only be so big in that field, but I still think overall you’re better off just like fantasy players are looking for under owned players to get more bang for the buck that maybe you’re getting more bang for your buck. And it’s like the old Jeff Saltman quote, which we put into the winning contest player.

Short field long [05:55:00] price. That’s the way. Yeah. I’m looking at it a little bit more these days though. Certainly by the math Dave’s point is correct of those two ideas. Which one are you more simpatico with? Oh, I’m actually sitting here thinking about it. They both make sense. I think that there’s, you know, I kind of agree with both if that’s possible.

I think that Scott’s point that, uh, finding a, you know, a 20 to one shot in a small field that people, other people probably aren’t playing is worth more than that in a contest like the NHC. To Dave’s point as well as like, I think that makes sense too. I never thought about it in half. The money you’re betting in a contest at the NAC is to place.

So there’s actually, there’s some value. There might just be two or three bucks, but two or three bucks that matter in the long run. So I think both points make a lot of sense. Let’s return to Bella feena for a minute. JK, not exactly the stylish performance, one hopes for when they bet a one to nine shot, but the figure didn’t come back too bad.

One 10 times from us one 10 time from us. So [05:56:00] roughly a 99 and an argument Steve  made that I think makes a lot of sense. There might be something to the idea of getting a little bit battle tested, given what she’s going to be facing when she gets to the Kentucky Oaks. What did you think of Bella Faena?

Did the performance make you more or less likely to want to back her? For the Oaks? Her price remained steady at four to one in the future book. She’s had enough questionable races that I think I can see myself trying to beat her, uh, when, when, when she becomes a, you know, a first or second choice in a really big race, um, you know, definitely don’t want to knock or the performance she ran.

Well, she was game like, uh, like you described and she got into a little bit of fight. Yeah, she was one to nine, but. But I still think she ran well enough in that spot. I’m going to look to try to beat her moving forward with, with some other talented horses that, that might present a little bit more value, kind of like we discussed earlier.

I think she’ll probably be over bet moving forward and hopefully she’ll keep winning until the Kentucky Oaks. And then. Oh, we’ll really [05:57:00] be able to play against her. Then it’s hard to know. Yeah. Inclination is more to just hope she wins next time and probably not going to be betting her, but perhaps the closeness of the margin of victory means she won’t be as smashed in.

As you might think again, it’s all going to depend who shows up. It’s probably going to be against over-matched rivals in California, but I think my gut is sit on the hands next time. Route for the route and then maybe have one, depending on what happens going into the first Friday in may, but potentially get on the bandwagon of trying to oppose there.

And I mentioned that I’d imagine the next time they’re going to run against that. She’ll run. She’ll run against that floor. Delamar for, for Bob Baffert of course. Yeah. Santa Nita know the Santa Anita Oaks, right? Yeah, I would imagine that’ll probably be the next time that Bellfina hits the racetrack.

She’ll probably hook up with, with, with that Philly, unless she shows up in a different spot earlier than that. But, uh, unimagined, at some point we’ll get them on the same race track, and that’ll be fun. What’s your gut [05:58:00] of who you’d prefer in that match up thinking about it now. Yeah, I think my lean would be to floor Delamar just based on the fact that her figure wasn’t crazy fast last time, but she also wasn’t.

Crazy ass last time. I think they’ll obviously going to be a lot of improvement to be made there. Um, lightly raced facing against, uh, facing affiliate like Bellfina if, and when they run against each other, that’s, you know, one grade stakes and it was great. And six tested and was the favorite in the Breeder’s cup, juvenile fillies, all of these different, different things that I think.

We’ll take a lot of money going towards Bella and leave maybe a little bit of an opportunity on floor Delamar. We probably wouldn’t have talked about, but for who ran second inspector Linley, getting the job done in a turf steak at Tampa. But how about your old buddy Divisadero making a bold run? Did you back and what did you think of the race?

He always shows up. Does any of that game thing where he is? Um, you know, I didn’t play the race in the contest. I was thinking about playing in the caucus. I didn’t like anything around it. [05:59:00] Uh, to play anything, multi race, I just didn’t have a strong opinion. Um, I figured one of those three horses that ran one, two, three was going to win.

Whoever got the best trip. I wasn’t gonna be able to determine that whether it was inspector Lindley, Divisadero, or turbine and inspector Lindley got that trip up the rail and got the job done. Uh, it’s a great race first back for Divisadero, since, you know, since being off since December. I think that you can go ahead and Mark him down as the winner of the, of the, uh, Churchill turf classic he’s he’s the mile and an eighth on that, on that turf course is obviously something he likes very, very much that turf course in general.

I think he’ll be, he’ll be extremely tough traveling in the same direction. It looks like he’ll, he’s been traveling in the past and improving, and I think he’ll be hard to beat in that race. Over that course we’ll have to look for a future book for that one. I don’t know that it exists, but it would be a lot of fun to get some money down early on our old buddy to visit Dara.

We’ve been talking about him for years on this show and it was [06:00:00] good to see him put in another nice effort. I have a listener email I want to get to, and I have a confession to make. So I’ve gotten a lot of good questions in the last couple of months since the new show started. And I have not done a good job at all, keeping track of them.

So help me out here. JK production meeting in the middle of a show. What do you think is the best way to keep questions organized? We could do it via hashtag. I could create a special email. See we no longer have the dedicated podcast email, like we used to have. And that was one way that I dealt with it.

Then what comes to your mind? Cause I know I’ve said to six people, that’s a great question. We’ll do it on the show. We’ll try to get to it on the show. And then when it comes time, like now where we actually have a minute to do it on the show, I have no idea of. Finding those things because my brain is so scattered trying to get this new show up and running, talking to sponsors, doing all this stuff.

And you know, not to mention 20 hours of [06:01:00] broadcasting in Vegas. Anyway, before you break out the world’s smallest violin for me, love and everything that’s happening, but I do want to get more organized. I want the listeners to be able to contribute more to the show. You know, when I thank everybody at the end, it’s very sincere and I want to do more to make us into a little bit of a tight knit community here.

Any ideas. I think the Twitter Jack is a great idea. I think if you can, if you can, uh, someone asks a question and you can just encourage them to follow that question up with, with, with a tweet, with a hashtag that we can always kind of look through to find it also kind of gets a conversation going about it.

Uh, via Twitter. If someone asks the question and they see it, we respond to it. Uh, there can be a kind of a pre-conversation to be had prior to us addressing it on the show. So I think that could be a lot of fun in general. So even when someone emails, maybe Pete, I would just say really appreciate the email, but let’s get some conversations started about this.

Do you mind tweeting the question and using this hashtag. And that way we can, uh, we can, we can, it’s a good place to keep them keeping, keep [06:02:00] them, uh, lined up, but also a way to, to kind of add to the, to the depth of the conversation that we can have. When we finally talk about it on show, I like this producer, JK, this is a good hat for you to wear and.

With tweets able to be longer now and the ability to do more than one tweet in a row, people shouldn’t really miss out. Right. I mean, you could probably get across almost any idea in a series of two or three tweets. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that it shouldn’t be a problem at all, uh, to be able to, uh, to get your thought out and get your question out and I, and a couple of, uh, and a couple of tweets, if not, uh, if not just one, so.

That makes the obvious question. What’s the hashtag I wrote something down here while we’re talking, but you’re good at this game usually. And what do you think it should be? Well, we can keep it clean and just make it like ITM podcast or we could do hashtag just in the money. Um, or if you want to be a little bit more specific, you can do like ask.

You know, ITM or [06:03:00] in the money or whatever kind of fun. I like, I like that let’s do that. I had written down ITM pod, but I like ask ITM. Let’s do that. Help us out. Come up with a question. We’ll get to them soon. Not sure about Friday. We got so many races to talk about, but next Tuesday should be a pretty good day to do that.

Use the hashtag ask ITM and also. Do not feel bad at all. If you’ve asked me a question recently, whether or not I even responded to you, but especially if I said, Oh, we’ll try to get to that and go ahead and re-ask it there. Then when I’m on the show, I can just pull up a hashtag. I can see everything in one place and you’ll be doing me a real favor.

Good ideas. Both JK. So that’s what I’m here for. And I want to read an email. We’ll do a little bit more of this now, the easiest way to get me longer form stuff, especially if it’s not a question. I like the idea of trying to do the questions on Twitter, but there is a contact screen over at, in the money

And we got this from listener [06:04:00] Jake, which I just enjoyed the story. I’ll read it to you JK and you can give your. Reaction to it just wanted to share a quick story that proved to me how degenerates are made in this game. Basically new to handicapping. I initially played a lot of chalk, but since have changed my ways due to discussions on the podcast and seeing how important value is, and he references you saying you want to try to turn a four to one into a 14 to one.

Well, I’m experimenting with a few strategies. And I got down to the last two bucks in my ADW account, decided it was pretty much over at that point and decided to do a last $2 box exacta, I guess he means $1 box exacta. In the sixth race at Santa Anita on Thursday, ditching the PPS because of how bad I was doing that day.

I saw a value pick in the Baffert horse being 26 to one, and the one being along price. Even though she’d won in her last start, I boxed them and planned to go back to the drawing board and not deposit more until Derby [06:05:00] day. Well, that didn’t happen because the five led the entire way and turned the favorite away in the stretch, which allowed the one to get up for place at the last second, my $1 box paid two Oh five 40 and I learned at that moment.

Why people turn into degenerates playing this game, LOL, sorry for the long story, but just wanted to share with you that you’re badgering of JKS. Love of chalk played a crucial role in my hitting the most hilarious bed of my life. Keep doing what you’re doing, guys. Uh, you’ve been one of the reasons why my interest in horse racing has grown and listening to the show is one of my favorite parts of the week.

Thank you, Jake. Very much for that. Your thoughts JK. Hey, man, look, when you can do those types of things and you can find those types of horses, that’s a great opportunity to make some money. And at times there’s times where it happens for me as well. It’s just the way my brain works in that, in that, in that different way where I like to see the ball go through the hoop and I just don’t have the, the mental.

Stamina to handle getting beat over the head by horses that are harder to get home. So [06:06:00] congratulations. I’m glad that my suffering is your reward. This reminds me, I didn’t get to another point I wanted to make about how value changes in contests. Some of these chalk plays you famously made JK these favorite to favorite doubles.

They’re not bets you’d ever make in real life. They don’t make sense in real life. In fact, You probably go so far as to say they’re bad bets in real life, but when you’re playing them in a contest and hitting that super high strike rate bet, get ready for the familiar refrain that no one else is doing within the context of the contest puts you in a position to take money out of the prize pool.

And in that way, You can turn an even money outcome into three to one, four to one, sometimes 10 to one, just depending on how much you’re risking to get into the contest and in that wager and how much you’re able to pull out of the contest via the prize pool. So when I say it’s bad, [06:07:00] bad in real life, doesn’t mean it’s not a great bet in the context of the contest, how much does that play into some of the chock stuff you’ve become famous for?

No, it’s it’s, that’s the only reason I, I, like you said, it’s not something I do in a normal setting in real life, but it is something that you can do in a contest where the added money from the prize pool makes the two to one property position that you’re on the racetrack six to one seven Oh one. And if you, you know, like I tell people all the time, if, if you’re betting two to ones that are paying 71, uh, you’ll make money in this game.

And that’s kind of the only reason that I’ve kind of gone that path. It’s it works well for my brain. It works well for the types of horses that I feel like I can identify. And, uh, it, it’s an easy way to, to, to limit the amount of plays that I’m making, because we talk about it all the time. You’re going to be wrong more than you’re.

Right. And so if I. Put myself in a position where I’m making seven bets in a day, uh, only one or two are going to be [06:08:00] right. I prefer just make one or two bats and hope that those are the, actually the two that I was going to get. Right. Anyways. And, uh, and, and avoid the losing. Is it really correct to say you’ve never done that outside the context of a contest?

No, not, I mean, not, you know, famously the Del Mar one, right? That was like the big of 10, 12, $15,000 double that I played in Roadster, unique Bella, in that situation. Know, no, I’ve never done anything crazy like that in real life. Um, Maybe like a thousand dollars double in real life is like the, just, just for no reason, that’s the biggest I’ve ever done, but, um, never, never liked that.

All right. I think we’ve done about enough for this edition of the show. We’ll keep it a little short. I’m a little talked out after 20 plus hours this week, and again, not expecting any sympathy, it was a blast, but we’re going to save the vocal chords. We’re going to get to some of the other work that is sitting on the docket right now.

Do you have a final thought JK for this NHC wrap-up edition of. The, in the money players podcast. I almost said the letters. [06:09:00] Uh, it’s always fun if you’ve never participated in it and you should make it, uh, make it a point to, to get out here. Um, and enjoy this, the, you know, what, uh, what many call, the greatest horseplayer convention it’s available to the staff of the entire?

I do a great job to make sure it’s a special experience experience for, for all the players. And then just the people that you get to meet. You know, I guess if you, like you look back at my first NHC, I had one, two friends and racing, um, and now I’ve got, uh, hundreds and, and, and met a couple more. New ones this weekend.

So it doesn’t stop. No matter how many years you’ve been here, you continue to meet new people that can kind of help you expand your role in this game and, and become a better player. And to make this hobby one that is financial benefit to you. And, and so, uh, The NHC does a great job of, of kind of setting that up for people.

We’re getting all of J K’s greatest hits. You’re going to lose more than you win. I had one friend now I have a hundred. We, I don’t know. We talked about Divisadero. We really is [06:10:00] the, the JK greatest dance dancer. Oh my goodness. I will just reiterate what you said about what a fantastic event it is. They do such a good job putting it on Michelle, Raven craft key Chamblin and the rest of the crew always have a good time out there.

And when we offer, uh, critiques and ask for maybe a little more transparency or some format tweaks, it’s not because we don’t like the event. It’s because we love it so much. And we just want to see it continue to not only survive, but thrive as we go forward. And with that, we’re going to close this edition of the, in the money players podcast.

Remember for those questions, hashtag I T M pod, couple other notes. I am launching a, just giving page for this race I’m doing at the end of March in London for the UK, make a wish foundation going to have a fun contest associated with it. I will either announce that. On Friday or next Tuesday, [06:11:00] I’ll put something up in the blog, be on the lookout for that also might be doing another listener survey soon, but don’t worry about that.

Basically all these things you can check out. If you look in the blog in the money, I want to thank Jonathan kitchen. I want to thank our friends at the thoroughbred retirement foundation and 10 strike racing, especially Marshall Graham for his fantastic achievement. The. Big finishes at both the BCBC and the NHC.

There are not too many. Who’ve done that before. There are some others, but there are not too many. Most of all, I want to thank all of you. The listeners you make the show so much fun to do. I talked about it on the appearance I did with Jason beam on his show. This week, you might want to check that out.

JK was on there too last week. Maybe I’ll pop links to both of those in the blog post as well. We will be back on Friday. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. [06:12:00] May you win all your photos?

In the sixth race at Santa Anita on third. Let’s try that again.

 Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. Hello, welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is show number 14. We will be posting on Wednesday, February 6th. You know what I lied earlier in the week when I said this was going to be a bonus show and we were going to have one later in the week.

This is going to be the second show for this week. And let me tell you it’s a [06:13:00] great one. We’ve got so many players signed on to join us today. Almost all of whom will be competing leading in this year’s national HorsePlayers championship. This is our NHC preview show, 11 guests in all. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in the Brooklyn bunker and the first voice you’re going to hear.

It’s going to be a familiar one. Okay. It’s the first guest on the NHC preview show. You know him, you love him. He’s the people’s champion. Jonathan kitchen. What’s up PTF. What’s the word? The word is I’ve been having a lot of fun talking to tournament players throughout this show. I’m going to ask a lot of the same questions.

We’re going to get different perspectives on them. We’re going to start with you. We’ll go rapid fire here. Cause we got a lot of people to get to. When are you flying into Vegas? I’m flying in on Thursday. Someone, someone has it out for me. I, uh, uh, the, my son has dad’s day. It’s the thing where you go to recess and you go to [06:14:00] lunch with him, all the dads come, I don’t know where these dads work, where they all can get off of work, but never, um, And they have it twice a year.

And guess when those times are the Thursday before the NHC and the Thursday before the breeders. So I’m not going to let my kid be the kid whose dad’s not there because he’s in Las Vegas. So I’ll say that, and I’m going to head straight to the airport. I land at like six o’clock on, uh, on a Thursday. You don’t want to be that guy.

Huh? No I’m, I mean, don’t get me wrong. I’m not judging that guy, but, uh, I, I don’t want the other parents to judge me. Our friend, Michael Maloney told a story about when, when his son stood up and said, my dad’s a professional horse player. And she called them in for a meeting saying that he was lying in class.

So Mike had to let them know that he really was, and I don’t want Austin to have to experience that yet stories like that. And many more bedding with an edge, reach out. If you’re looking for a copy data, JK, what data do you use? DRF P is a little bit of time form U S [06:15:00] workout reports and, uh, any, any information I can get from our various friends around the country that know a little bit more about how a horse might be doing, uh, than me I’ve sent out my, my texts already are you live in the seventh?

I’ve already done all of that stuff. Um, I got those out to some very, uh, unsuspecting people, but, uh, yeah, just whatever I can kind of get my hands on. But mostly that the base of it would be the DRF formulator PPS as well as time form U S okay. Sound you hear in the background is a million trainers blocking JK for the next four days.

Dinner plans, dinner plans, while in Vegas, what are yours? Yeah, Nick Tamra, this is going to make him mad. I think it probably makes you a little bit mad. I’d like to keep my options open. I, I don’t know where everyone’s going and I don’t want to end up sitting at a dinner with 29 people and 14 of them. I don’t like, and I don’t want to go eat this when I want to eat that.

And I just want to keep it but clean and keep it open and hope I can just hop on with someone else. [06:16:00] But to be honest with you, I’m not too concerned. I’ll walk over to the Venetian and eat at one of my favorite restaurants in Vegas, which is noodles. Very unassuming. Asian restaurant pretty much right next to, uh, the Venetian sports book.

If you get the right table, you can actually watch the races while you’re eating the, uh, the Asian cuisine. So it’s one of my favorite places. Noodles is good, but you realize you’re just not an adult in this regard, right? Will you cop to that at least? No. We’ll argue about it. Off-air of a free, I’m a free sneer.

You’re something inside Starbucks or the outside Starbucks at treasure Island. Outside Starbucks for sure. Treasure Island is great. However, there’s a smell in there in the morning with the smoke in the den. And I like to get out for a little bit, smell some, uh, some fresh Vegas air if that actually exists.

And there’s a bench, right? When you walk out on your way. Uh, to, to Starbucks. And there’s usually something interesting happening when you look to the left on that bench, I’ll let you, [06:17:00] uh, use your imagination for some of the various things you can see there at five o’clock in the mall. We hope you do not choose to Periscope.

Let’s put it that way. How many times have you qualified for the NHC? 2015, 16, 17, 18. 19 is my fifth. NHG five times for JK. I’ll let you tell the story. Cause it’s on the list of questions. What was your best fit?

Oh, Pete, this is, I mean, look, it happened. I mean, you fell in love with me. You’re not going to mention Divisadero in this answer. That’s the only thing I can hang my hat on. First HDR I went to is the one where I had two entries in the top 10. I finished seventh and 11th. It should have been seventh and 10th.

They changed the rule. So one bite, everybody knows the rules, our friend with the pizza reviews, but you know, it’s, it is what it is. I’m glad to have, have had that success. And I just need to try to repeat it and it doesn’t, it doesn’t do me any good at this point. Any predictions for this year, I think the [06:18:00] mavens going, gonna make a little rough, he seems kind of angry, frustrated, uh, you know, angry, frustrated, focused.

And I think that some people can be, uh, Distracted by those emotions. And I think he’s the type of guy that could probably hone in. I think he’ll make a little bit of run. I think that there’ll be some, some interesting moments where he’s in the mix. Uh, but I do predict that, uh, someone from, um, the two tables that I associate myself with will make it to the final table.

Uh, the Mathias, the  crew, and then the table that, uh, you know, me, Nick tamarillo Marshall Graham, that situation, I think we’ll we’ll have someone do well, uh, well enough to make it to the final table. Godspeed, my friend IPTs and speaking of familiar voices, you’re sure to know this guy, please state your name, age and profession.

Scott Carson, 54 currently. Retired. I like the sound of that retired, or maybe I should say him say [06:19:00] professional horseplayer somewhere between retired and a professional horse player. I like it. Right. If the professional horseplaying doesn’t get better soon. I’m going to be unemployed. When do you like to arrive in Vegas for the NHC?

Well, I always used to come in two days before the contest started, but last year I came in one day earlier and that made a big difference. So then I decided that, you know, since that was the first time that I cashed, I decided, Hey, I’ll move it up another day. So I got here last night and I’m already a well into handicapping.

How many times have you qualified for the NHC? I’ve qualified 11 times. What is your best finish? My best minister was sixth last year, but I should say that, um, my other best finish was my first year was 23rd, which that year it didn’t even [06:20:00] cash. They only paid the top 20. What data do you use to help you handicap for the NHC?

I use DRF for, um, a lot of stuff, workouts and. Uh, past performance, uh, you know, replays and trainer patterns. I also use the third graph sheets and, um, I use a couple of other things that I don’t, I’ve never really told anybody, but they’re not really critical of my main two. Um, my main two methods are with DRF and third graph sheets.

Do you go to the inside Starbucks or the outside Starbucks at TIAA? I prefer the inside Starbucks, but I will use the outside if the inside is closed, which it is sometimes when I wake up at wacky hours, a word on strategy for this year’s event. How do you, I think that the two, two really important things for me this year [06:21:00] one is starting early so that I have time to handicap and find those potential opportunities.

So, uh, that’s the first, most important one. And then the second one is when I do re get reduced time, which the third day you always do, no matter how prepared you are. The important thing is to skip really nag cheap claimers, because you waste a lot of time on those things. And, um, as ed DeRosa just, uh, uh, tweeted out, they hit CA you know, capper horses happen much less often.

With these cheap planners, like 10,000 and lower that’s great advice. Terrific. Any dinner plans for the weekend so far? Yes. Well, the Yardbird. Love that the Yardbird across the street at the Venetian is amazing. And so, um, you know, going there one night, um, we will do fills here Phil steakhouse, [06:22:00] uh, another night.

And, um, other than that, uh, up in the air, I might crash your yard, bird dinner. I’ve just decided now. Not seriously. Well it’s Wednesday. Oh, I would have to sprout wings as a certain race. Kali says to make that happen. One last question for you, Scott, any predictions about this year’s event? I think it’s going to be pretty crazy.

I just, I feel like, you know, last year there weren’t that many cappers. I think this year you’re going to have a lot more. And, um, the early weather forecasts showing a good chance for all the turf racing to be on for the entire weekend. Fascinating. I think there’s going to be higher scoring this year.

Yeah, we have not seen that much turf racing. I don’t feel like in the last couple of years, that’s a very interesting development, great stuff from you for more from Scott folks should check out public Thanks for your Tom, my friend. [06:23:00] All right. Thank you, Pete now to welcome. One of the key people in putting on what I call the coolest horseplayer party of the year, the national HorsePlayers championship, Michelle Raven craft of the NTRA Michelle.

What’s up. Oh, just out in T I’ve been here since Friday, getting everything ready for all the HorsePlayers. You’ve answered my first question. I was going to ask when you like to get in a full week in advance. Sounds like the answer. Yes. Get him Friday work all weekend and then we should have everything prepared.

Um, this afternoon, Wednesday, ready to go for Thursday morning. How many NHCs have you been to. My very first one was at Bally’s. So I think I’ve probably been to about 13. 13 is an impressive number. There’s a few players who’ve been to more, but not many. Do you have any dinner plans for the weekend? I always make dinner plans and then I always end up canceling.

[06:24:00] So you’ll usually find me at the, yeah, the TA hanging out in the casino. You’re the anti, Jonathan kinship. He refuses to make a dinner plan. You make the plan, but then don’t go through with it. Exactly. I imagine life spins out of control, dealing with all the various characters who are going to be on hand over the course of the weekend.

When you’re at treasure Island, do you go to the inside Starbucks or the outside Starbucks? I actually go to the CVS because I don’t drink coffee. I have to have a diet Coke first thing every morning. So that’s my first stop. Every morning is CVS. And I do see, I get to walk by the race book. So I get to see a lot of familiar faces going to the CVS.

They’re up bright and early, already in the race book, studying any predictions for this year’s NHC. Who do I think is going to win? Well, it could be, who’s going to win. It could be something that you think’s going to happen. Something about your own work schedule. I’m like really [06:25:00] excited about all the bonuses opportunities that we have over $20 million of bonus opportunities.

Probably over 10 players playing for, you know, millions of dollars. And so that makes me really excited because I think one of these days somebody is going to hit it. Who knows it might be this year. Michelle, thank you. You’re playing hurt. I can hear in your voice. Thanks for taking time to come on the, in the money players podcast.

I appreciate it. And I know the listeners do too. And thanks for having me and see you soon. Peace. Now I’d like to welcome for her first appearance on the player’s podcasts. Somebody I’ve wanted to have on for a long time, a long time listener and a horse player. Who’s made quite an impact in her brief time playing tournaments over the last couple of years.

Karen, Carrie, how are you today? I am very well. Thank you. That’s quite the introduction. Thank you, Pete. You, you deserve one. I’ll never forget reading the Belmont. Press release [06:26:00] when you shouted me out as one of the people that you listened to to get a tournament information and horse racing news. And my favorite part about the whole thing was you mentioned me

well, you are the man. Yeah, for sure. Well, I love both of you guys. You’re both great together and Greg chemistry and, uh, provide so much information. Yeah. I definitely am an avid listener and definitely you have kept me. Into wanting to do more and more of the contest with a human JK talking about it all the time.

There’s no question about that. Fantastic. How did you start playing in tournaments? Where did the, where did you get the bug? Well, first of all, I lived in Saratoga. I’ve had the home since 2009, so I definitely have been after races and very involved in going to the races and handicapping and playing the races.

But. You mean would have to be, you know, that that’s why our show, the horse players. Um, [06:27:00] I loved it. I thought it was great. And it certainly was, looked like a lot of fun. And then you guys just following up with the contest and your conversations about it, it just seemed really something that I always wanted to do.

So I started out. Probably playing in the, the low rollers, for sure. I mean, just to get your feedback, you know, how do you, how do you start? You just have to get into it. And the first contest that I could get into was those low rollers. And from there I went to the online. Would you, you know, talk it about it all the time and started playing it more of the online and on my own.

I just started following players that were very good players that had a lot of success online, finding. You know how they went about and how their picks were. And then I just started planting. I mean, there’s no substitute for actually playing. It just became something that I wanted to do, like very [06:28:00] much so.

And at the start of last year, I, at the very beginning of the year, I was like, okay, this shit, I was ready for it. Uh, lifestyle wise. And it was just a phenomenal year. I don’t know what else to say. I just got lucky in some spots and it was a lot of fun, a lot of fun. First time going out to the NHD. So I’m looking forward to that.

It’s going to be very interesting to see with all those races, how, you know, the style of the way I handicap, I was hoping to play out, but I’m looking forward to it. You talk about the style that you handicap. What data do you use? I use the GRS. I do like the print it form because what I do is I can too.

Like I’ll get the rat sheets and I’ll put the last four numbers on the top of each horse in the race. And then I go about adding different figures, you know, um, different angles [06:29:00] onto that sheet. So yes, I’m very much attached to the printed sheets, but I use my computer because I pull up the DRS and I’m using time for the last.

Probably year and a half and liking that a lot. So I add that to it. I’m watching replace that’s basically it. So, you know, with this amount of races, I think that’s why I said it’s going to be, you know, it’s definitely, I’ve got my work cut out for me, everybody a lot. There’s no doubt about it. When are you flying into Vegas?

I am flying into Vegas on Thursday. So, um, yeah, early Thursday morning. Yeah. It’s uh, it’s great. And your shows are fabulous and I’m glad you’re caring with the podcast. What’s awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much. We appreciate the support. How many entries do you have for the NHC this year? I [06:30:00] only have one.

I came very close to winning a second entry. In the Saratoga contest. I think I was 56 and that was one slot behind a couple of the online as well. So yeah, just going out with one, but for my first time out there, I guess that’s probably a good thing. Might be a little bit easier. Stay a little more focused.

I could definitely see that. Do you have any dinner plans for this weekend? Something we’re asking everybody on the show. Dinner plans? Not really. No. Um, I am going out there Thursday and Paul Sherman was nice enough to ask if I wanted to sit with his group. So I’m planning to sit. Yeah. During the day it’s his group.

He’s been great by the way. So, you know, to be able to meet somebody like him right at the onset is awesome. He’s been very supportive and just great. I mean, I would have to Caitlin, that was one of my favorites. Tournament’s to [06:31:00] go to and what a great tournament they run out there. And as far as the organization goes, can’t tra they’re fabulous.

I mean, they was so organized and also the players and the committee that puts the tournament together. So w what is the word I’m looking for? They, they honored. Okay. Give me an example. They honored Judy Wagner’s husband. Jared in a tournament day. Um, and that was just great. I mean, she’d be out there for the first time and she’d be part of this whole community of people that have known one another, that highly respect one another.

They had everybody stand up and give them a toast and I never met him, but I did get Judy lovely, lovely woman. That was just a great weekend out there. And. Brian Wagner, a tournament legend in his own. Right. I should send around the article, Theresa Janero wrote about your rise to prominence on the tour.

Some good [06:32:00] stuff there. I’ll make sure to amplify that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, as far as QP, you provide so much information and some of the early things that. No, I, I just focused on was just getting as much information and reading. We’re talking about 10 years ago, you know, picking up in handicap, the block in downtown Saratoga, but then your books and winning contest player was one of my earlier books.

Now, you know, the thing has everybody that’s in that book, a meeting,

which is great. It’s really something. I didn’t plan on getting so much praise from you in this article. I feel like I should send you a check. Yeah, no, I know. And, uh, I also have setting with the edge. That’s a, that’s a heavy book, but really good acute as well. Well, thank you very much. That one, I can praise that one from the bottom of my heart, because it was really all Mike and me just [06:33:00] writing stuff down, but I do appreciate the support.

There’s no substitute for project planning. So. But you do have to start. You just have to start, you know, I remember the very first podcast, you know, the very first race I had to bet it and you know, you’re just betting every race. And then after you’re playing for awhile, you do relax a bit and single out the racist that you, you liked playing and feel a lot more confident.

And then of course the Belmont, I was there with my sons and their great avid handicapper. So, and the Belmont is something that we do every year. We’ve been going for. I guess five or six years now, and, uh, always had the success out there. So it was great to have them there with me and we, uh, capsuled that car together.

And, uh, we won and it was, I can’t just say I won I’m there with them and they were very much part of it. We did it. And that was. Fight today. I mean, to [06:34:00] go from just starting in this to something like that, it was super exciting, winning a major, always a big deal. And I know there were a lot of people out there rooting for you who will continue to do so over the course of this weekend.

Last question for you, any predictions about what’s going to happen out in Las Vegas? I think there’ll be a lot of attention on David, right? Absolutely. He’s part of this show as well. Yeah. Yeah, he’s a great player. And that was such a phenomenal run of his in the end. Incredible. I did feel bad for our man Paul Sherman.

I thought he was going to get it done there. I did too. I did too. I thought for sure that was quite a shocker, but yeah, he’s a great player. I teach history. He’s um, It’s amazing. He’s playing for what? Like $6 million. Got it. One last question I lied. I’ll hit you with one more. When you talked about looking at players online, [06:35:00] successful players, trying to see what they did.

What’s something you learned by doing that, that improved your game as a handicapper and a tournament player. They will also play CHOC Anthony Trezza. So I was following him for a while with him and, you know, like they chalk and the other players, and he had so much success online and I can like, see how he played.

And he could definitely play a few chocolates picks as well as, you know, the long shots and spread it out. But yes, he, on his winning ticket entries, he had. Usually a few good, very low jockey that I kind of followed in that, that way. I liked that idea. I think you, you know, you’d have to, uh, go for Spanx, but I think you should lock up some of the smaller.

I can think of a certain [06:36:00] podcast co-host who definitely agrees with that sentiment. Karen, come by and say hi out there. I’ll be on with Steve Beck all weekend. And we’d love to have you on there. If you get a free minute and we will talk to you soon. Okay. Thanks. Great talking to you. Cheers. And now for his first appearance on the new podcast, a guest on the old podcast, and we’re going to have him for a much longer visit soon, but wanted him as part of this NHC pre-game show one of the most popular guys in the tournament space, Tommy, the hammer masses.

How are you today? My friend. Excellent. Peter, thanks for having me on and hopefully more than 30 seconds. Like the last time, when are you flying in to Vegas? I am flying. I’m leaving Florida Wednesday. I don’t know between eight and 10 somewhere there. Nine o’clock leaving. How many times have you played in the NHC?

I don’t know. I would guess five. What [06:37:00] data do you use to prepare for the event? I’m guessing I won’t be able to use Clockers, uh, I guess the daily racing form. Is about it. Why do you say you won’t have clock or report? Well for maybe for Gulf stream, but for where else? Right then Anita. Right. But, but I don’t really, you know what, there’s only, I only trust brutal.

I know Bruno. I know Bruno, if he’s, I I’ve seen where he’s played in a contest, right. And only bet what he’s put out. I don’t trust other people. He just worries too much about being good and right around on those days, you know what I mean? I told you the bleep man was going to be busy when we had you on the show.

Oh, okay. I won’t do that again. Sorry. Do you go to the inside Starbucks or the outside Starbucks at treasure Island? Probably [06:38:00] the outside, but I don’t know. I don’t smoke cigars anymore. I used to go for my walks, smoke a cigar, but I’m not a Starbucks guy. I’m getting so used to making my own coffee. I don’t know if there’s one of those little things in the room.

Yeah. It’s probably going to end. You have to put $2 in and turn the thing to put on the coffee machine. Do you have any dinner plans while you’re out there? No brother is coming in for some vacuum cleaner thing Saturday. Your brother, a vacuum cleaner salesman. Yeah, yeah. Store and his salesman. Who’s at the Jenner red horseplayer who finally found out I’m the same Tommy masters that won the, you know, he’s read about me, but never put that we’re brothers together, even though we have our rare last name.

So I’m his handicapping service now. And then we’re probably going to be eating hot dogs and playing horses Saturday, Sunday night. I know it feels to me like you might have trouble walking by a race book. If the lights are on. Is that fair to say about you? [06:39:00] No, not really. The last thing I want to do with the horses as a living.

So the last thing I really want to do is play horses. I’m not one of those guys that have, you know, you go to you go to people’s homes. They have TPG on, or our HPI on that’s the only channel they have on their TV. 24 seven. That’s not me, but I will play, I can’t pick up the foreman. Handicap. Any breed species?

No, I’ll, I’ll be, if my brother wants me to help, help his buddy out, that’s what we’ll be doing. Is the buddy playing in the NHC? No, no, no. Just hanging out at the vacuum cleaner convention plan horses. Not too bad. Yeah. Yeah. So we’re going to hug or we’re actually, we are going to go see, probably going to go see a absent that Caesars palace synth.

Interesting. All I seen is. Somebody sent me a video once of this quiet little shy girl that comes up and does her act right. And she does a little puppet act and I’m sold. You have to [06:40:00] find that on YouTube. We’ll put a link in the blog, watch it first. I’d watch. Sure. What’s your best finish at the NHC? Oh no, I don’t even think I can.

Anything to even come close to anything $40. Okay. Any predictions for this weekend? Yes. I kept keep dreaming about it. Do tell. Yeah. I promised that date, but I really liked the guy. Dave good friends is a good friend. He’s on the show. Okay. So what, what I, what I dreamed is that he wins it right? And that after he’s he realized what he has done the damage he has caused he’s at the top of the pirate ship, ready to jump.

And I have to talk him down. That’s Tommy, Massis everybody player to watch in any tournament in which he competes, though, there’s a limit to the amount of hammering he can do in the NHC format. [06:41:00] Thanks. Pete. Can’t wait to see everybody out in Vegas, state your name, age, occupation, and place of birth.

Elliot tonical I’m 41 and I live in Louisville, Kentucky. I’m in sales, and I understand you own a piece of a race horse, or two, maybe couple that our listeners would have heard of. So I was in a couple of Donegal syndicates still in, and a couple of Donegal syndicates, the most famous horse you would have heard of.

And this was the first syndicate I was ever involved with was keen ice. So you all, you probably heard of him. He beat one. That was pretty good. As I recall, he did. Yep. That’s his claim to fame and, um, uh, just a great experience for me and my family. And. Um, had a little, a little, a small little, little piece, but there a lot of, a lot of fun, a lot of memories and a lot of pictures around my house.

That’s for sure. He’s not the only podcast famous horse that you’ve been a part of. Yep. There’s art Glo. Uh, there’s a few that have [06:42:00] ruined some tickets for you guys. That’s for sure. But you get that’s your own fault. Donegal should pop up, uh, as a, as a threat to tickets. Whenever they show up. So you guys are slobbering up to include them.

So I can’t, uh, I can’t stress that enough, especially with three-year-old Turkers on big days. Now, were you part of the one that won on Arlington million day in the three-year-old race last year? I was, that was Kerrick and, uh, I was dumb enough not to bad. I think character was like 32, 33 to one. I did help a friend who the pick four and I think it paid like.

It was, it was a big pick four late pick four late tick boxes. It does make me feel better to hear that you didn’t bet either, actually that, that soothes my soul to some degree. Well, I feel like I already have wind money on it. Right? When you have the steak and a small piece of it, you already essentially have a wind at, on it.

Anyway. So, but yeah, that was, uh, I know, I feel like I [06:43:00] bet the lower price and not the higher price. It makes no sense. I guess you have more confidence. Yes. But when you’re all in, you already are in, when you already have the skin in the game, it should be the exact opposite of that. I would say. I agree. I agree.

But, uh, no character should be running back there in a couple of weeks. So he’s exciting. And. Um, it’s just been a lot of fun and that it’s a great, it’s been a great, it’s been a great experience and a good way to go in for a small, um, invest relatively small investment. And we get a lot of the great perks and I’ve got to do the walk through Derby and travel around and.

Yeah. The only time I’m going to share a Toga is when keynotes one of the drivers. It’s the only time I’ve ever been. Amazing. We might have to try to fix that this year. Couple of rapid fire questions now about the NHC. So I can let you get on with your day. We were yapping a bit off air before this started.

When he flying in. Tomorrow I get there at like 1245 and tomorrow being Thursday. Yep. And I it’s frustrating. I see all these people on Twitter [06:44:00] that have gotten out there. Does that put you at a disadvantage? The time thing, the time zone changes? The thing that kills me and I’ll have my kids calling me on the way to school at 7:00 AM Eastern, which is for Vegas time.

And so I’ll have to get up. Um, but that’ll be my time to study. I go down to the breakfast place at PI and study and eat breakfast and, and kind of get going and try to stay on Eastern time. And it’s, that’s the only disadvantage, I think the time, when did your preparation start? I think Saturday when the fairgrounds came out.

Yeah, it was Saturday when fairgrounds came out, I printed everything and I wish I retracted that. So fairgrounds, so I’ve got I’m ready for hopefully Saturdays come out today being Wednesday. Um, but I started, yeah, I’m pretty good for Friday’s card. I feel really good about Friday’s card. What data do you use?

We use formulator. I use stats, race lens. I’ll also use, I’ll also look at pace projector [06:45:00] on time for them. Um, and then I’ll look at the clock or reports, you know, as we get closer, those are my, those are my main things. How many times have you qualified? This is my fourth time. And what’s your best finish?

So far 15th, pretty good. Who years ago? That’s very good. Just $5 away though, from the final table. Um, so it’s still kind of bitter I’ll take it. It was a great run and great thrill. Any predictions about this year, I’ve got two seats this year and I had two seats that year. I just, I want them to have both in make the cut would be kind of a preliminary goal, but.

I love to have one on the top 20 again, that would be great. Um, but I’m dreaming of the big check and, um, I feel like I got nothing to lose. Right? I’ve already, I qualified relatively cheap this year. I didn’t invest as much money as I have in the past. So, um, it’s just a great experience. You talked about this.

I mean, the takeout we know is not the [06:46:00] greatest, but it’s, I think you said Paul Paul Sherman, or someone said Paul Sherman, it’s the experience. And it’s like, no other it’s an event it’s just. Uh, that’s why I get upset when people complain about the takeout and about, but it’s, it is the experience that like no other, um, and it’s, I’m just, I’m excited for the energy and just, you know, everything from people within the program, to the characters, you see, it’s something like no other.

So I’m looking forward to it. Elliot Godspeed out there. Thank you so much. For many, this is the guy who has the best resume in the history of the NHC. He’s a former NHC tour champion. He almost went one better this year and won his second NHC tour. I’m talking of course, about Paul Sherman. Paul, how are you today?

Fine. Thank you very much for your kind words. I’m fine. I’m sitting here in my room in Vegas, watching the sunrise beautiful day. I’ve got my computer out. [06:47:00] I’ve got. Uh, my, my sheets. I’ve got, uh, well, I’m all set to go and wanted to start. So, Paul, just a question about winning the tour and then playing in the NHC, particularly relevant with Dave good Freud and playing for the 6 million.

I was looking back at the stats and you have the best finish in the event. Of a tour winner with your sixth place finish. Other than you, since the advent of the tour, it looks like the best the tour winner has done is about 170 second. Is that just random or is there potentially a causal negative effect for the tour winner?

When it comes to showing up at the NHC with all the attention, all the added pressure of trying to take home that giant bonus. Well, Pete, I think there’s a lot of pressure. There’s a lot of attention and I believe that a lot of these, uh, champions who’ve who’ve shown how great [06:48:00] handicap is. There are, they are, uh, throughout the course of the year, tend to change, change what they do.

This is a problem with a lot of, a lot of, uh, participants who come in

Looking at race replays, they’re going to use different things that they use to get there. I think that a lot of people included the tour champions tend to change the way the handicap. You wrote an article about one of the tour champions a few years ago, who was describing how he or she was going to change the way, uh, he or she was handicapping.

And I’m thinking, how, how can you know why we’ve saying something that brought you so much success? So this is, this is not only, not only, uh, Something for towards champions, but something for regular players. Who’ve just because it’s a big tournament. That’s because of the NAC, you know what I’m saying?

The way you’re handicapping, you don’t start looking at, at, uh, at sheets. You’ve never looked at [06:49:00] sheets. You don’t start looking at race replays. If you don’t know what race looks like, you look at what, what got you there, you, you use what got you there and, you know, even do well, you know, if it hits for you, it doesn’t, but don’t change your style just because it’s the NHA.

That’s not a mistake. I can see Dave Freud making, not only does he have all the success in horse racing tournaments, but this is a guy who’s literally been under the bright lights at the final table in poker tournaments, playing for hundreds of thousands, as well as already having a final table appearance at the NHC.

Do you think this is a concern? I don’t think it’s a concern for them. Um, in fact, the, the anemia who the final table. Uh, before the 500 people started, I went up to him and said, I think you’re going to win, uh, through this. That’s the kind of personality he has and he’s used to it. So he has as good as, not as any.

Of winning this thing, a big and home, I guess it would be $6 million for him. Yeah, not too bad. [06:50:00] I know you guys were competing tooth and nail on the tour, but as so often happens, it sounded like your friendship actually deepened despite competing against one another. What advice do you have for Dave heading into this opportunity?

Well, I, again, just do what he’s done all along. Um, he’s a great player. He’s always been a great player. And I think that, that just, if he could relax, he should relax. And if you could have fun, it’s just trying to have some fun with it. Um, but I, um, I’m eager to see, I think, I think he has as good a shot as anybody who’s had to, uh, win the tour and win the tour championship.

He’s also, he’s also going in. Awful role. And I’m a big believer in, yeah. I think that that people who have been playing throughout and playing up to the NHC have a little advantage over people. Who’ve been a bit off for awhile. My, my brother has in played in [06:51:00] a, in a, in a big tournament a few months, and he’s, he’s worried about, uh, coming in off the layoffs and I said, well, you’re coming in fresh.

So maybe that’ll be good. But I think there’s a sort of down having, having competed after the very end. I know going right from there to the MHC. I think that’s a plus. Now you’re a positive person. So maybe this question is just going to seem totally loaded to you, but any disappointment in the wake of such a close call on this year’s NHC tour?

Well, like we talked about, I can’t play defense. I did the best I could. And like, we’ve also talked about not only to win these tournaments, do you have to be. The best handicap of that day. You also have to be luckier than Evelyn that day. And, you know, I did the best I could. I traveled around, I plan all the tournaments I could, but Dave was just great.

You know, he was, he was, uh, he had the run of a lifetime. I [06:52:00] ran into him. I actually sat close to him at the, at a mammoth tournament in early, early December. And he was, he was probably in that 30 or 40th place in the tour and we were talking and he was saying, you know, I only have a few towards scores. I think I’m going to try when I’m going to go to LaSalle.

Um, and you know, I can’t, I can’t catch you, but maybe I’ll come in top five. Maybe I’ll get CCBC spot. And, um, and here’s what I’m thinking. I’m thinking, boy, I hope he does win today. Because if he wins, then that means that a few of the people who are behind me or to have one, and that will protect me right now.

He just said he didn’t win. But then he goes out to LaSalle and wins that. And then the next week I’m playing in that one of the $75 online tournament, uh, with 500 people and. I see, he comes in certain, my brother calls me cause definitely came in third because, well, that was the eighth. So I didn’t know that [06:53:00] was East, got two more scores to galleries.

He’s right there with you. I suppose you still got a winner, another tournament. It’s not going to win something. And uh, and he did and he did. So he, he deserves it. Uh, he, he, uh, he’s a great handicap and he always has been. And, uh, I’m not disappointed that I’m not going for. Uh, for the, uh, for the extra 5 million.

Yes, but a lot less pressure on me, a lot less pressure. But if I do win the tour, if I deal with the Annecy this year, he will have cost me $500.

How many times have you qualified in total? I have qualified, I think, 17 years in a row. I believe your best finish. Third, third behind, um, John Carty. When it was at red rock and then I had two, six one, one, one, one, and one, the tour and, uh, another, uh, you know, the first spinal table. [06:54:00] Contests trivia that Conti NHC first article I ever wrote about tournaments, I barely knew what they were.

I wrote a piece interviewing John for horseplayer magazine, and I probably wrote your name in the article before we’d ever met. What are your dinner plans for this weekend? My identity plans. Well, tonight we have a traditional dinner myself and my brother Mitcham and then Scott Carson, or go into Yardbird.

chicken and waffles. That’s tonight, tomorrow night. I’m not sure it’ll be, uh, it’ll be, uh, a lot of people I think then you catch what you can, you know, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, a dinner back to start in, uh, a little break back to studying. So no, no real dinner plans until a really tonight. Tonight. Is it tomorrow night?

Well, we’ll play it by ear. And then it’s on the fly. When you’re a TA, do you go to the inside Starbucks or the outside Starbucks?

[06:55:00] You’re one of those guys I’m going to know. I stayed at the Nissan across the street. I love T I love the fact that they run the tournament. They treat us very well, but I prefer that the nation fair enough. And. Not only is it, is it it’s a nice facility, but I like to be able to yeah. Get out of life. It got some hour.

And if I was still in GI, I would never leave. Um, and I believe it’s important too, to be able to stretch your legs. It’s the fresh air and walk around. And you know, I’ve, I’ve been at tournament’s course failed world series, the Orleans, where I’ve been inside of the ballroom before for five days. Um, so I like to sack that.

Definitely. So I like the addition and it’s close by to get out, I guess, may I can walk around. It’s a little, a little different just to see her, any predictions for this year’s event, with regard to the NDC, the reason I’ve had some good success here is because you have a [06:56:00] better sense of seeing races that meet your criteria for, uh, plays you like with all the races and all the tracks.

They either will hit or they don’t hit. And when they do hit, you’ll do well. If don’t hit them, you just had a good time. That’s Paul Sherman, NHC hall of Famer. Thanks so much for your time today. Thank you, Pete. And now I’d like to welcome to the NHC preview show a woman responsible for one of my favorite stories thus far heading into this year’s and HC Shona, Rosenblum.

How are you today? I’m good. How are you? Things are going really well. Trying to clear the decks before heading out to Vegas. And that leads me directly to my first question for you. When do you plan on arriving out that way? I’m actually headed to the airport in about 45 minutes. Perfect. Perfect. How many NHCs have you attended?

I’ve been to two before this one actually worked a [06:57:00] couple for Breeder’s cup. Uh, in years past. So I’ve been as a guest before, but never as a player. So, um, I’m excited to get out there. This is your first time qualifying for the NHC. How did you punch your ticket? It’s a cool story. So I’ve been playing in theaters for the last few months.

I had a super busy summer, but in the fall and after breeders cuts, things kind of slowed down a little bit. So, um, I was messing around and played in a feeder. Uh, it was $18 center. And ended up and I’d won a few theaters in the past. And I was like, Oh, this is actually not, not too tough. So I’d had some disappointments, but in this case I won the theater and that the, I realized that I needed to play in the theaters that were the day before, because I didn’t have time to handicap when it was an early bird.

So I played in one the day before I qualified for a Sunday tournament. And, uh, I really just put the work in and Pete Redondo and I sat down at the table. We were up at my [06:58:00] folks house and we sat down on the table and we were like, don’t bother them. We’re qualifying so many chiefs. He had a seat and I had a seat in the, in the qualifier and we went through, meet me, talk to him.

We talked it out. He made some decisions. I made other decisions, obviously. And, uh, at the end of the day, my, uh, entry heat it up a little bit. And I made a few calls at the end and ended up qualifying. I ended up making second place by like 40 cents. Beautiful, beautiful. Unless anybody think that Shona is.

Somebody there, uh, listening to, uh, Pete Ritondo or anybody else’s advice. I’ve seen you out there in the backyard at Saratoga with the pen and the form. And no you’ve been playing in these tournaments for a few years. How did you get involved in the first place? It’s funny because I realized that people thought Pete qualified for me.

And when I, when I found that out, a few people made comments. I was like, no, no. Like we were both. We were both in that qualifier then. And I’m the one who ended up qualifying and know we [06:59:00] do the homework together a lot. But, um, I like to tease team Recondo a lot because they’re petrified of any odds that are.

Anywhere close to being considered Shaki in this case talk got me home because I, I, like I said, I qualified by 40 cents. So if I hadn’t had that talk to your pick in the beginning, I wouldn’t be where I was at the end of that day, but I got into it. This actually, this is, this is a crazy story. I learned to read the racing form three years ago.

So it was out at the NAC. Uh, I think it was 2016. I was covering for Breeder’s cup. You know, we were giving away BCBC seats, but the top point, uh, winner on Friday and Saturday each got a see, and then that NC champion gets to see, uh, additionally there’s a bonus associated. So if you win the BCBC, you’re eligible for a $3 million bonus.

If you win the NHC and then if you win the NHC, you’re eligible for that bonus to rolling bonus, you may want to promote that program a [07:00:00] little bit. What else am I supposed to do? I’m fitting their treasure Island for three days in a row, and everyone’s having fun gambling and I didn’t know what was going on or how to do it.

And so I had FOMO and I just put the form down and I started walking around to people and asking what’s this what’s that? What’s this? I think that’s the first use of FOMO in podcast history. We’ll let the older listeners Google. I remember Matt Bernier sat down with me for half hour and kind of pointed out some of the highlights.

And then various members of team or Sendo were helping me figure it out as well from the other people who were there. So I was like, okay, I think I know enough to place a few bets. I didn’t want to go to the bedding windows because in the beginning I was intimidated by growing up because there was all these different ways to place a bet.

And also, I didn’t want to get in the way of any of the players. So I ended up downloading transpires. Um, I downloaded twin fires and I signed up and everything I placed for best that day, I ended up betting $44 and I got back, I don’t know, like two 60 [07:01:00] or something. I was like, this is easy. Like, I’m going to keep doing this.

And one of the first bits I placed into inspires with a $20 bet on a course called social media. Perfect for you with your company, a grand slam social. Exactly and it wasn’t a hunch bet the horse. I liked the horse. Well, that’s an impressive ROI to be sure you chose some good initial tutors in the game as well.

Not a bad way to get started and not a bad way for the story to continue. That’s for sure. Let me ask you a question about Mr. Rotunda. Now, from what I understand, he did not end up punching his ticket to Vegas, to play in the tournament. Will he be along? Will you give him a little pocket change to go in the casino and play slots while you’re up there playing horses?

How’s that going to go? So, uh, initially grand slam social was hired [07:02:00] by NPRA to come cover the event. So I was always going to any seat, but I was going to work like I have in the past. So when I qualified, I ended up bringing another one of the members of the grand slam teams in to work on the project.

So there’s two girls from grand plan, Molly, Miguel, and cannon Christofferson. They’re there to work and I’m there to play. And we had this whole idea, you know, we’re always thinking about content creation and things like that. And we had this funny video idea where we would. Uh, position P as the, as my plus one, they have, you know, how they have like the spouses, like there’s an itinerary and things to do.

So we’re going to follow Pete as he goes and get, you know, go shopping like this whole kind of, and then cut to me like. Studying and playing. Um, yeah, he’ll be out there. That is fantastic. And I’m glad he’s not taking his lack of qualification too hard. It sounds like he’ll be [07:03:00] willing to participate in the social media part of it, which is great.

I can’t wait to see that that’s going to be fun. What data do you use in your handicapping? Has it evolved from that day in the ballroom with the racing? I use the formulator now. I like to look at replays a lot. Growing up as a horse person, I’ve been around horses and written since I was five years old.

So I really like to look at the body language of the horses and, you know, because there’s not a lot of time. To study at the NHC during the, the post, you know, at post time race, after race, after race, I would think it would be tricky to do much body language stuff, just because of the sheer number of races, as opposed to a one track tournament where you could actually physically go to the paddock and look at them for.

Right. Exactly. So I, um, I like to go back and watch the replays. I like to see a horse that. I guess a little bit of trouble or gets battered or, or have to kind of persevere through something and keep going. I really like [07:04:00] to see that. So even if the horse doesn’t win the race, I love to see some sort of trouble early on that they can overcome.

And I even watch after the race is done, luckily the replays continue and they’ll, they’ll show the horse trotting back to the winner circle. And I like to kind of see what they look like there to like their soundness level and where their ears are and kind of. You can get a sense of whether they’re enjoying themselves and they, they have a heart and want to do it, or if they aren’t really that into it.

But other than that, it’s just a pen. And the, as a form, it’s pretty old school. I’m a little intimidated by some of the guys who have spreadsheets and all this other stuff out there. Our man, John Fisher brings his own monitors and computer. He looks like he’s got enough computing power to put a chip into space.

Yeah. And even on Twitter, you know, I’ve been following the conversation a bit, but I’m taking Thursday off and then Friday and Saturday, obviously, but. I’ve had business as usual here with grand slam and the team and our clients. And I’ve seen starting on, [07:05:00] I think it was yesterday or the day before someone had seated that they got up at four 30 in the morning.

To start handicapping for the day. And I was just like, I don’t have that high. That’s not uncommon. It’s not uncommon. I’ll tell you. I mean, just from some of the folks I’ve been talking to and getting people at all kinds of weird hours and you see the emails in your inbox and you’re like, okay, they’re up early, it’s serious business.

That’s for sure. Do you feel like that’s a major. Disadvantage to you trying to find the time that some of your competitors have, or do you feel like what you’re doing is unique enough and the format of the tournament is such that you’re in there with a fair chance. We all qualified, right? We all deserve to be there.

It’s not easy to qualify. There’s a lot of people out there who are really, really good at this. Some people have multiple seats and that’s fine, but in my opinion, we all made it there. And so we all have a shot at winning regardless of the tools and. Um, the technology that’s being used. I think a lot of it is preparation, [07:06:00] but there’s, there’s enough percentage of, of luck and, and things going your way in the mentum that it can, it can make it possible for anyone who’s there.

That’s a great point. Any predictions for this weekend? Know, I feel like I’m such a rookie when it comes to this, because I’ve, again, I’ve been there multiple times, but I’ve never really. I’ve never gone with the player hat on. So I think this is going to be a big learning experience for me. I’ve asked for advice from a lot of people and I’ve gotten some excellent tips.

It’s a little bit from here and there, but everything from recommended odd brackets, like five to one to 12 to one, you know, in terms of like the first day, what kind of odds they’re looking for to I’ve also had people say. Only handicap the races that you’re the best at. So if you are really good at sprints versus the distance races, focus on those there’s enough races out there where you can pick, you have [07:07:00] the benefit of being able to pick the ones that you are a little bit better at.

And then of course, don’t be afraid to take a shot. I think that’s going to be the biggest one, finding that price, horse, and not being afraid to go great stuff. We wish you the best of luck. Look forward to seeing you out there. Thanks for having me. Can you please state your name, age, and profession for the microphone.

Michael Bay, chalk 55. And I am a political consultant. How many times have you been to the NHC? I think it’s 11 or 12. I went one year when I didn’t qualify. I don’t know if that counts. What’s your best finish. Well, I won the NAC in, um, 2012. I’ve finished 23rd in 2011, and I finished, uh, 40 ish, I think, in [07:08:00] 2016.

And how much did you win the year you won? I want a million dollars. American. When will you be flying into Vegas? This time around. I’m coming in Thursday, not to play the last chance, but I’m just coming in Thursday early to get acclimated. Uh, if I could work it out to where I could come in Wednesday, uh, I would, but, uh, family life and business life don’t allow that on normal basis.

So I’ll be coming in Thursday. What kind of data do you use to help you at the NHC? I use, uh, I’ll construct rudimentary track profiles for the tracks that I’m going to play. So just that I know it gives me a sense of how those surfaces and distances are playing and then I’ll use, uh, rely heavily on brisk net figures.

And also I’ll probably glance at third graph figures. And finally, I’ll look at optics to just give me a [07:09:00] sense of what. The shape, uh, in the shape of the race looks like, and that also contributes to, or supplements my track profile because I can identify the, the looks of what a horse that is, that are winning these types of races looks like on a graph, which helps me, uh, kind of figure out who’s going to win any dinner plans so far for the weekend.

Very important dinner plans are extremely important. And I think that is the last thing that I’ll do. And, um, but I, it makes me nervous right now that I don’t have plans for, for any dish and you know, me, Pete it, so, you know, that I’m, I’m being truthful. You know, I like to have a meals mapped out my dinners, uh, and I don’t.

And so, um, it gives me great pause that, that, that, that particular detail has not been taken care of, but I’m sure that I’ll have. Three or four very good dinners while I’m in Vegas. Where was your victory dinner in 2012? [07:10:00] The victory dinner was, uh, was that, uh, the win in Alegra it’s a little pizza place or Italian place right off the wind sports book.

And that w the reason why was, um, I took a long time at the window at treasure Island, trying to get my million dollar check, which they some. For some odd reason, they really didn’t want to cut it right away. And so that took a lot of time. And the other reason I had tickets to Garth Brooks at the wind that night, cause I had no idea that I was going to win and my wife had come in town and we were going to go.

So we had made our way over to the wind just to see if we could get in for the last half of it. And they wouldn’t let us in. So we ended up, uh, You know, hunkering down at, uh, at, uh Alegra but, uh, that was not an appropriate victory dinner. It was not. That’s so funny. Do you like the inside [07:11:00] Starbucks or the outside Starbucks to treasure Island?

Well, this is a question that now moves over to my political leanings. Uh, I am now anti Starbucks. I will not step foot in a Starbucks because their founder and CEO is thinking about running for president 2020, which I believe would, um, greatly. Undermine the chances of defeating Donald Trump. So I will not be supporting Starbucks.

So let’s say very outset, any predictions for this year, um, feel very. Good about where I am, uh, emotionally, which is a big part of my handicapping as you and I have discussed before psychologically, I guess is better. Um, I think I’m in a good place psychologically. I’m going in with a lot of confidence.

Uh, but as you and I both know, you know, regardless of how confident, how well you handicap, you have to be the luckiest person [07:12:00] out of 600 plus on those three days in order to win. Now, you can. You know, you can do well. You can probably make them money without being an extremely lucky, but even that takes a lot of luck. So I’m just hoping that the convergence of my good, emotional, psychological state converges with some sort of lucky bio rhythm, uh, over the course of those 72 hours in Las

Vegas, Godspeed, Michael Bay, Chuck in your quest to become the first ever two time NHC winner. Thank you. Appreciate it. Please state your name, age, and profession.

Nate there’ll be 41. And I’m the vice president of marketing at Santa Anita park, talking to you, Nate about contests reminds me of those old Sy Sperling ads. This might just be something that happened in New York, but the idea was that he was the guy who owned the hair replacement company and he was particularly.

Uh, [07:13:00] qualified to do his job because he was also a client you put on wonderful contests and you also play in them. I’m always fascinated by that. And I’ve asked you this before, but it’s, it’s a pet question and I’ll return to it. What about playing in contests makes it easier for you to run them? Well, I think it’s a couple of things.

I mean, the biggest advantage is just that I’m constantly talking to tournament players and contest players and getting feedback and ideas and hearing their thoughts and strategies. So I think that that helps you put on a better contest. And then, uh, you know, hopefully when I’m playing in contest, all that information.

It comes together and, uh, and helps my chances to, uh, to do well. So, you know, as you know, Santa Nita, we do a lot of live money contest. So NFC will be totally different with the mythical format, but, uh, we’ll see how it goes. Where’d you qualify? Uh, at Los Alamitos, it was a kind of a [07:14:00] sperm decision that after Santa Anita’s long, uh, kind of six month winter, spring, summer season ended was either a week or two after that end of the Tom Quigley and a couple of Leo and fluorine and a couple of our good, uh, Eddie, Logan players said they were going out there and asked me to meet them up there.

So just, uh, went out and took a shot in the $500 contest and, uh, and got lucky and finished. Second, when are you flying into Vegas? Uh, I get in on a Thursday kind of mid day. What kind of data do you use? Uh, I wanna use a couple of, sorry. Um, you know, I’m a classic DRF BP guy, but then a lot of replays are what I’ll use.

So I’ll go. And at least the mandatory races I’ll try and watch as many rebates plays as I can. And, uh, I think with what is there seven or eight tracks? I probably won’t get through, uh, too much of the, uh, optionals, but, uh, I’ll see what I can do. How many times have you qualified. This will be my [07:15:00] first time.

So I’m, uh, I’m looking forward to that interesting experience. I’m sure. How many have you been to in total? I assume you’ve been just to support your Santa Anita players over the years. Yeah. Usually, uh, we we’ve had about around 50 players from Santa Anita in the last few years. So I usually try and go out either Thursday, Friday, and just check in with everybody.

We usually host a dinner, so I’ve, I’ve, uh, I’ve seen it for one day, pretty much a few last four or five years, but never the, uh, experience different the other side, or been there for all three days, which it’s going to be interesting. Speaking of dinner. Do you have any dinner plans booked already for this weekend?

We’re putting this together now probably, uh, gonna try and do some earlier dinner. So I get a little time to get some work in, but, uh, nothing too crazy. Maybe a Thursday night and then probably the rest of the schedule depend on how I do it in the contest. As far as whether the, uh, there’s going to be more fun, involved or more handicapping.

I like it it past visits to [07:16:00] treasure Island. Do you go to the inside Starbucks or the outside Starbucks? Ooh, good question. I think, uh, I think the insight is, uh, is my usual spot, but I’ve, I’ve been to both for sure. Any predictions for this year’s NHC. Oh, I think, you know, I mean, obviously it’s the sharpest horse players around the country all there, so it’ll be, uh, a tough field and there’s no question never playing in it, uh, that I’m, uh, I’m a big, long shot, but I’m just going to try and have fun.

And, uh, I’m sure we’ll see the, uh, the usual suspects at the top of the leaderboard, uh, on the S um, you know, those types of guys that we see always there that are, uh, being, you know, Great to see Jonathan kitchen’s name up there again. I was reading for him, so we’ll uh, we’ll see what happens. Yeah. He’s all right.

Thanks so much, Nate, for coming on the show today. All right. Thanks, Pete. Okay. We’ve heard from a lot of players playing at this year’s national HorsePlayers championship. Many of them [07:17:00] have mentioned our next guest. All eyes are going to be on him playing for millions of dollars in bonuses, Dave. Good Freud NHC tour champion.

Welcome back to the end, the money players podcast. Great to be here, Pete, really, uh, really excited, a big weekend coming up, generally speaking. When do you get to Vegas for the NHC? And when did you get in this year? Generally speaking, I would normally get here probably the Wednesday before two days before it starts.

I’ve been here probably a full week before it started this year. What is your frame of mind heading into this event? If I were just looking at your Twitter feed, I wouldn’t be too sure from the conversations we’ve had privately on the phone. You sound fantastic focused. Where’s your head at right now? My man, I feel great.

Totally relaxed. Just chilling. Um, you know, [07:18:00] everything’s in place. Uh, we’ll see what happens. Uh, okay. Do the best of controlling what I can control at this point, but everything’s in place. I feel great. Now, obviously I had a little modicum of success since Thanksgiving and horse racing tournaments. And may that continue for one more event?

We’ve had a lot of different responses. When I ask people about their dinner plans, we have those who have planned obsessively. We have those who plan and cancel everything. We have those who refuse to make plans. What are your dinner plans this weekend? I’ll be eating swiftly. At the end of contest, play on Friday alone and hopefully the same on Saturday night.

If I’m playing day three, I will, you know, sneak out, you know, as soon as my last play’s done, go grab a bite to eat and try and be asleep by as early as seven 30, eight o’clock at night with all due [07:19:00] respect to the friends and acquaintances and. Competition out here in Vegas, you know, when I’m done at the end of the day of the contest, I just want to get the heck away.

I don’t want to hear any bad beat stories. I don’t want to hear how I should have had this or should have had that. I just want to completely decompress and sadly in some ways, but realistically, in some ways, the best way to do that is not to be around other people. Right. When you say decompress, are you talking to go, you really talking about decompressing or are you just talking about going back to the room and keep grinding on the work?

I’m talking about going to going somewhere to eat dinner, most likely PF Chang’s one of the nights to eat and, you know, go over the day in my head, but I don’t want to be around a group of HorsePlayers commiserating about the day and just obsessing about the day. I just want to, you know, go over what happened to have an idea of what I’m going to do in my head for the next day.

And then pretty [07:20:00] much. Eat dinner and go home and go to sleep. And pretty much start for Saturday mornings. Start at like two, three in the morning, four in the morning on Saturday morning, after a night of sleep, I think I’m much more likely to be effective work-wise, uh, after sleep, as opposed to after a long day of grinding of the tournament on Friday.

Makes sense. You know, your bio rhythms, that’s important. How many times have you qualified for this event? According to the MHC web site. They say it’s my 14th time. I guess I have to believe though. What’s your best finish? So far? Uh, fifth, I believe in 2016, three years ago. Final table. How did sitting at the NHC final table compare to the various experiences you’ve had at poker final tables?

It’s not the same, uh, you know, it’s a completely different event versus a poker tournament versus a horse racing tournament. It was incredibly exciting, uh, you know, [07:21:00] leading after day two and making that final table in 2016 and there was a great blueprint quite frankly, for what it takes to. Go deep in this tournament again this year and in subsequent years.

And it’s something that at least I have in my back pocket, knowing what it takes to make the final table poker final tables are so much different because of the, uh, independent chip model, the ICM considerations, the laddering, and how you go about. The strategies that you play. There are some similarities in the laddering.

If you’re not in contention to win it in this particular tournament, for me, there really is no ICM consideration with the insane difference between first and everything else. The money is so much at the top. You’re talking about laddering different strategies to get to different places in the price structure.

Is that right? Of course. Yes. And trying to, you know, [07:22:00] you know, get the most out of the equity you have in the tournament at whatever point you’re at you’re at, in the tournament. When you get down to making those considerations late in a horse racing tournament, how much does your particular opinion of a race or set of races?

Come into play as opposed to what is proper to do according to the math. In other words, if you love a mid price or a short price, but there’s so much more equity in theory, and going for the longer price based on the price structure, what do you do? Push comes to shove math wins. If you’ve got a thousand dollars in your bank roll and you have to get to 1600 and there’s a four to five shot in the race, you’re much more likely best off just playing the four to five shot, regardless of what your opinion on the four to five shot is, as opposed to trying to figure out another way to.

Double your bankroll without that particular horse in a push come to shove case that in that particular [07:23:00] case, I would just lean towards the math and getting from point a to point B in the easiest way, regardless of opinion. But you know, a Indian does matter. And, um, it’s a, it’s a balancing act at times.

Between, uh, the math and what you need to do and you know, what you have to do. And one of the great things about the NHC with 53 races, you know, 18 a day 36 before the cut is there really isn’t any of that FOMO. There isn’t any of that. Pressure that you feel in a lot of other handicapping contests with especially mandatory plays when a 20 to one shot comes in and everybody in the room is yelling and screaming for it, you know?

So what, you know, the idea is to get to, you know, X amount of dollars each day and get enough to get into the top 20 and missing out on one horse isn’t gonna make or break you. And, um, so yeah. Biggest upset of the day. The term FOMO has now [07:24:00] come up twice on the, in the money players podcast. I made the joke last time, Dave, that the older listeners can Google it.

Wait, I’m one of those older ones, but you know, FOMO, you’re hip you’re down with the lady. So what you get when you hang out with a bunch of young poker players who are kind and generous enough to hang out with a old fool, not hardly my friend. Last question. Any predictions for this weekend? It’s going to be lots of fun.

It’s exciting for me. And I’m incredibly blessed to have a special opportunity and I’m going to do everything in my power to make the most of it. And that’s basically what I can predict is what I can control. And I’m going to. Do everything that I can to win this damn turn of it. It’s an amazing opportunity.

And I’m going to try and make the most of it. Well, we’ll be following along with great interest. Every step of the way folks can tune in live. [07:25:00] Steve Click the listen live link. You can go back there and check out the archive. I know a lot of players do that. Going to be fun, Dave, hopefully we’ll get a chance to, uh, at least wave.

Hi, not going to bother you by talking to you during this thing. As far as I’m concerned, you’re a pitcher with a no-hitter for the next few days. Don’t think like that at all. The best thing for me is to act and treat it like it just a regular tournament and do what it is that I normally do it. And that’s the way I got to approach it.

In that case, come over and say hi to me and BIC. At some point, we’ll stick a microphone in your face. Godspeed, my friend. Thank you very much, Pete. See out there. And that’s going to do it for the, in the money players podcast, NHC preview show. Lots of thank yous today. We’ll start off by thanking our friends at the thoroughbred retirement foundation and 10 strike racing.

And now let’s get to today’s guests. Let’s see if I can get them all. Thank you very much. Jonathan [07:26:00] kitchen, Scott Carson, Michelle Raven craft. Karen Carey, Tommy Massis, Elliot Honaker, Paul Sherman, Shona Rosenblum, Michael Bay, Chuck, Nate newbie, and the man of the hour. Dave gut Freunde. Thanks. Most of all, to all of you for listening, you make the show fun to do reach out, stay in touch, be apart of the community here at the end, the money players podcast.

I lied before on the previous show, when I said we were also going to do a Friday show, this is your Friday show, took me basically two days to put it together. Don’t have the bandwidth to do another one this week, but we will be back after the NHC. And of course you can catch me all weekend long with Steve Beck

The next in the money players podcast, probably Tuesday I’m Peter Thomas foreign Italian. May you win all your NHC photos. [07:27:00] .

 You’re listening to the, in the money players podcast. Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. I’m your host, Peter Thomas.  back with you for show number 13. It is Tuesday, February 5th. Happy Chinese new year. Alternate side of the street, parking suspended makes my Tuesday less stressful. I always liked that.

Love Chinese new year. Great holiday. Wish I could be there at a parade somewhere along the line. Instead I’m in the Brooklyn bunker [07:28:00] grinding away. Working on all kinds of stuff. Trying to clear the decks ahead of NHC weekend, I will be heading out to Las Vegas on Friday. We will be publishing a special episode of the, in the money players podcast, be on the lookout for that.

But first we have a fantastic show for you today. Pat Cummings of the thoroughbred idea foundation is here to talk about some really exciting stuff. Racing can potentially do not just to survive in the new sports betting world, but to thrive. That’s coming up a little bit later. Also a visitor we’ve been wanting to have forever more or less.

He’s so busy. I always feel bad bothering him, but we allowed it to happen this time. Steve BIC is going to be coming by. We’re going to be talking about the NHC and his roll out. They’re going to be a lot of fun, but first I want to bring in the cohost he’s riding high [07:29:00] folks. National TV over the weekend, getting to go to his favorite place, Santa Anita, even if the weather wasn’t so good, but right now he’s back on the planet, Texas.

He’s competing in the NHC this weekend, looking for another title. He has a tour championship under his belt. He wants finished with two entries in the top 10 out there looking to win the whole thing. I’m talking about the people’s champion, Jonathan kitchen. What’s up. My man. PTF, uh, I’ve got a confession for you and this story for the people.

So we were out in Louisville for the breeders cup and Pete and I were doing a Quester con and we had a little bit of a break and. Pete wanted to get a coffee. I’m new to the coffee world. And I, don’t not really a midday coffee guy, just kind of the morning version. It needs to have chocolate in it. I know, I know I’m working on it.

We walk by to Starbucks and I’m like, Pete, what are we doing? And Pete wants to go to some coffee shop. He saw on Yelp that has good [07:30:00] coffee. And my confession is that right? At that moment I wanted to punch you. I really did. I was tired. My feet were hurting. I didn’t want, I was probably overdressed. It was probably warmer than I wanted it to be are colder than I wanted to be.

I don’t remember. I didn’t want to walk. I admit to you now that there is a difference between regular. Starbucks coffee and coffee that you can get from a place that takes a little bit more pride. I went and went out of my way this morning to get a little bit more prideful of coffee. And so to this, I owe you an apology and a next time I’ll be a better walking partner when we’re trying to find some good stuff.

J K, even for you, this is a really elaborate excuse for why you were late to the show today, but I do appreciate it. I’ll put in a quick plug. Actually. We got a couple of tips. Our buddy David crone tipped us on please. And thank you. And, uh, heinie brothers coffee in Louisville. And I wanted to seek them both out and they were both very good, [07:31:00] especially please.

And thank you. Those were good tips. Some of the many good tips we received over breeders’ cup weekend, but not nearly as good JK as a certain tip. We received this past weekend. I’ll let you tell the story. First of all. I was starting to panic on the show on the Fox sports Saturday at the races, I was panicking because I had not given a winner yet.

And I was like, that’s like my job to be there is to like, you know, be the horseplayer guide is going to give some, some insight. And I just was whipping and whipping and whipping and whipping. And then finally I hit the late pick three, uh, quote unquote, late pick three, and gave out the winner of, of the Martha Washington.

Think the horse’s name was power. Gal is a Japanese bred horse that Mark Cassie had for the barbers. And then I gave out a mucho Gusto who was my best bet of the day, but. Before everyone starts yelling at me about that second. Well, first of all, he was three to five and he won. So he was the best bet.

Second of all, I made those plays earlier in the [07:32:00] morning when a Nolo contestable was still in, the six horse was in. So my thought was Nolo contested was going to take money and also gunmetal gray. And you get closer to even money on mucho Gusto. I felt like that was value. They’d late scratched the horse after I’d already turned in my play, whatever.

I still liked the horse as a single. Uh, he won and then a, uh, 20 to one first time gilding at Oaklawn park took the pressure off. I felt like I had probably had a positive ROI at that point. It was a lot of fun to show is a lot of fun. It’s fast and furious, man. Like, I’ll be better next time when I’m more prepared, it was like, they’re in your ear and they’re yelling.

And it’s like, I was expecting what happened at Saratoga this summer, which was like these long breaks in between races. Right. But this was like bang, bang prices. What did you think of that race? Who’s up coming up next post parade here. Boom, bang, boom, bang. And like, is the camera on me? And it was just, it was a new thing for me, but once I’ve gone through it now, I think I’ll do better on the other end.

I thought you were great. And I do think you have the potential to even be better. I was super [07:33:00] impressed with the overall quality of the broadcast. So many talented people on there. It came together really well and I enjoyed. The range of personalities and opinions. They’ve put a terrific team together and I think it’s great that you’re a part of it, man.

You look good up there and you given out some winners, which is great, but let me, I’ll tell you that wasn’t the tip I was referring to from the weekend JK, we had a tip regarding the Superbowl, a certain prop bet at the super bowl that I wanted you to tell the story of. Oh, of course, of course. I took all the, all the credit for the tip.

Yes. So the person who gave us the tip we’ll refer to him as quote-on-quote Queens. Right? Well, that’s his, that’ll be his name for the story. Quincy. He was involved in a pick six. We played a pick stick together. All of us and Quincy was involved. We got knocked out of the pick six and he sent the group a message.

He said, bet the over on the national Anthem tomorrow. I had talked, I’ve talked to Quincy Jones, a number of times over beverages. He’s [07:34:00] like undefeated in the national anthems and like the last five or six years he gets inside information on the rehearsal. Now what happens. This has become a whole big story, by the way, I’ll link in the blog to this idea of insight, information, and rehearsals, and you are leaving out the fact that one of the country’s singers got nervous and sped it up.

And it went under, even though it was supposed to go over. But other than that easily, something like nine and one in the last decade, he lets us know and he he’s telling everyone we’re passing it along. We’re telling everyone to look at their local bookie or whoever they can get a bet down with. See if they can find.

The action on the, uh, the national Anthem boy, was he right? He told us two minutes and two seconds, and it was like two minutes, one second. And like, you know, whatever, you know, 45 tents. It was awesome. That was, it was the most gratifying, gratifying experience. I had the stopwatch out. We’re all sitting here.

My son was with me. We were watching the national Anthem and counting, and it was a, it was phenomenal. It’s a lot of fun. One of the most fun Superbowl wagers I’ve [07:35:00] ever had. It was certainly more entertaining than the game. I’ll say that much, but I just thought from a pure degeneracy point of view, the look that Susan gave me as we’re late to our super bowl party, riding in the car, I’ve got the Westwood one broadcast on, I’ve got the stopwatch out and she’s just looking at me like watching me, text you back and forth, encouraging remarks, et cetera.

It was priceless. I have to say, I felt very sick and very happy all at the same time. I do think that we definitely owe Quincy Jones a big, thank you. One of my friends, I had it like a small situation and I’m sure lots of people had a small situation. One of my friends bet, a thousand dollars,

just kidding. Right. Even a thousand dollars. So it all worked out. It was very fun, very fun time. I can’t wait until next year, who knows who’s going to be involved. The best part about it was like the back and forth before, as we were trying to figure out if we were right, someone sends a YouTube video of her.

Previous [07:36:00] performance in 91. And then someone sends a video of the fact that she’s going to have someone signing along with her. So we know she can’t get out of control. She got to stay linked up with, with the person who’s signing. I mean, it was, it was a lot of fun. There was a lot of fun. You’re right. I had been doing some handicapping again.

This is how sick I am before we got this inside info. I was handicapping the prop and I found that 91 Gladys Knight version where she just belts it out and goes right through it. So my initial lean was, this is going to be the under. And Quincy was like, no, no, man, you got to realize that was 91. This is 2018.

How many more big moments is she going to get on the stage in front of this many people, she’s going to draw it out. And then he revealed about the inside info. It was pretty priceless all in all. Oh, this podcast, if you feel like you got a little bit luckier, you got, you got the, the photo went your direction to take down one of your direction, the DQ or whatever it is.

You need to tweet out whatever you need to say, and then hashtag [07:37:00] brave, brave, because it was, it was the second brave. It was the second grave that got us. Well, apparently some places had rules where they specified the first brave, but that makes no sense to me. I don’t think in my life I’ve ever heard anybody sing brave more than once.

The rules that I read were through the end of the word, brave, which made it a clear over, but as always with everything, you got to read the rules and I’ll also just throw a little note out there. JK canny, potential sponsors listening. If your sports book decides to come on board with the podcast, we won’t talk about bets that you have to bet in these far away off shore places anymore.

Just so you know that I just want to get that across. Let’s talk about some racing because the Superbowl doesn’t deserve much triple crown action. This weekend. With which performance were you the most impressed broadcasts? I think I said mucho Gusto in first, and then I kind of regretted that right after I said it.

I think tax’s performance was probably a little bit more impressive. Uh, the fact that he kind of stumbled early, showed some [07:38:00] grit to kind of fight through that spot. The spot that might’ve been opened up for him a little bit, but he still ran right through there. Hey claim obviously by Danny garden. Uh, and, and Randy Hill and the team there read really well.

I, I’m not, like I said, I’m not cutting in line a bit futures on tax, but it was an impressive performance. And I think that mucho Gusto is the type of horse that, although he ran well. And although I think a lot of people expected him to run that way, that, well, um, in that, in that circumstances, you know, he ran on a sloppy track.

Uh, there was a lot of info out that, that apparently. His two-year-old breeze took place over a sloppy track, but it was, it was like everyone knew he was going to run well on the surface. And so he ran really well. Let’s see what he does on a fast track. He’s still no improbable to me. He still no game winter to me.

He’s the third or fourth in that Baffert barn, maybe 4th of July, if you want to count the Philly, Florida Lamar. So let’s see what happened. I said before, and I’ll say it again. You can pay attention. You can soak it all in. But do not fall in [07:39:00] love with horses on the Derby trail. When you’re thinking about what you’re going to do the first Saturday of the month, a lot of stuff to unpack there, I’ll start off with my thoughts on tax.

I do think that’s a good point. We’re not having this conversation. If that hole doesn’t open that hole. Doesn’t open. If Ray, Lou Gutierrez, isn’t race riding. The rival on the outside, it was a nice effort, 96 buyer speed figure, but I’m not ready to get super excited about from a Derby point of view, even though the figure was good.

And even though there was some adversity overcome and some grit shown, I agree with all that, but I’m just sort of taking a, as we do on so many of these horses. A wait and see approach going forward. But here’s the thing, one thing about tax, just to keep in mind, we, we always talk about these broadcasts and some of the great notes you can get Danny Gargan.

And the post-interview said that he actually thinks tax is going to be better on the turf. So wherever you keep notes, pop that in there. And when you see tax show up after this Derby businesses over [07:40:00] and you see tax show up on the turf, I think it’s important to remember that Danny has predicted that the horse is even gonna be better on the grass.

Both tax and mucho Gusto at 33 to one for the Derby, either of those tickle your fancy, and then just to put your feet to the fire, pick one or the other, give me tax neither tickle my fancy, but that’s the choice I would take. You might have to turn in your silver wig for that response. JK. Funny enough, we’re getting closer to a real friendship between me and the, and the silver haired man, my mom and my son who came along with sat in front runner while I did the show and they were sitting in it right next to Bob Baffert table.

When I got up there, you know, we joke about the, the situation with me and B squared being buddies. We’ve talked a few times. We don’t have each other’s cell phone numbers or anything like that. But I was very pleased at like, he recognized me from our recent, in our other conversations in the past. And we talked yeah, for like 15 or 20 minutes.

And I told them that I was really upset that when Joe took the horseback, I thought he should’ve been loose on the lead. And he essentially told me [07:41:00] that was the instructions. He told Joe, he said, ride him like a good horse and ride him to win the race. You know, those horses he’s better than the horses that were in that race.

And there’s no reason to go out there and run like that on the front end, keep them clean and just keep them out of the way. Know it was nice to hear that information. I’m not sure I fully understand that. Right. I’m like, what does that mean? Right. I’m like a good horse means rate him or it means send him, it means like right, good horse.

I keep them in behind and keep, teach them a lesson. Right. And like a good horse. And no matter what the situation is, you’re going to beat these other horses. So why go out there and drill them out there on the front end and not know what’s going on behind you. Just take them in there. Sit them behind horses and let them run by him late.

And that’s kinda what he did. I was a little bit concerned that he invited gunmetal gray into the race around the three eights pole. And I thought that could have been dangerous, but when Joe asked him and he just skipped over the ground and kind of pulled away, he had so much. Absolutely. And I do think I’m.

More impressed. I’d take him going forward because of the fact that he showed [07:42:00] that new dimension, I felt like that was enough. Mucho Gusto earned a 90 buyer. He’s going to probably get on a plane. I would imagine next. And Bob’s kind of hinted at that. The mucho Gusto will be the one that goes on the road.

Uh, I would imagine improbable. And game winter, we’ll stick around. I did ask Bob a question that I think I’d like to share. I said, game winners working, right? He said, yeah, he worked the other day. I worked in easy. I can get him ready like that. He just kind of expressed the fact that like getting games, he is not going to be a problem in terms of timing.

I guess you’ve got enough of a foundation and they’ve, they’ve kept them fit enough that it shouldn’t take much to get him going in the right direction. So I would imagine that those two will stick around and try to kind of maybe battle out for who’s going to run in San Anita. And mucho Gusto will probably get on a plane.

I can see mucho Gusto going to New York. It’s kind of what he did last year with restoring hope. He sent him to New York to run in some of the preps over there. I would imagine in winter and probable one of those horses would end up maybe at Oaklawn. It’s kind of a Bob Baffert thing. He did it with American Pharaoh and he’s done it with [07:43:00] Bodhi Meister as well in the past.

So maybe one of them ends up there. One in San Anita. Uh, no, one’s feeling sorry for Bob Baffert and the wealth of three-year-olds that he has Cousteau earned a 90 buyer. So based on the figures, your opinion makes more sense than mine, but this is just the sense that I have 33 to one from the Baffert barn versus 33 to one on tax.

I’m still. I’m going to just lean it a little bit the other way, but neither one are cut in line prices. At least not at the moment. Let me tell you who I am not interested in. And that is the one, two finishers of the Holy bull. When you get a 25 to one shot and a 99 to one shot run in, it’s usually not a great race.

And I’ve been dying to say something out loud. And I just see, I can say it on these airwaves. I couldn’t say it on the other ones. I almost jumped out of my chair when Harvey Wallbanger won, I cannot tell you how many times that horse has hung and beat me. Maybe two or three times, we were alive for huge scores and he couldn’t get the job done.

And then all of a sudden, when I don’t need him, he [07:44:00] comes barreling through the rail, like he’s super saver or something. It was a perfect setup. You look at the pace figures for the race and he just ran perfectly evenly. While the rest of the field ran incredibly inefficiently. This is the formula or one of the formulas to produce big, long shots, the fastest horses in the race, the better horses in the race run their race too early inefficiently.

You’ll see those red fractions over on time form us that help indicate that. Meanwhile, he’s just sort of going the one pace, but like the story of the tortoise and the Hare. When they go way too fast, early that can get it done. Harvey Wallbanger earns an 85 buyer more in line with an allowance, race and a graded stakes.

Good for him. Great story about the name, actually I’ll link to that in the blog too. Not named after the drink, but after a famous. Racing Buffalo. Read the story on, in the money It’s pretty cool stuff. I’ll also throw in a link to the drink [07:45:00] too. Not a drink for me, by the way, sort of 1970s in a glass, maybe something you’d order at the Regal beagle, Galliano and orange juice.

That’s just too much of the same kind. The vodka doesn’t quite do enough to redeem it for me, JK. But anyway, ever fast ends up second. You could make a case that he ran better than the leader. You can probably make a case that both Epic dreamer and Maximus mischief ran better than the leader from an ability standpoint, just by being on or closer to that very fast pace.

Do you want any of those horses out of this going? None of them, I don’t want any of them out of here. Not one of them. None of them. Not one. And I will say this. I think it’s very important. If you happen to be one of those conspiracy theorists complainer, guys, I read in Jose do not let each other win. And this is absolute proof of it because they buried each other in this race.

And if it wasn’t for them, riding each other’s horses. Of might not have got through and ever [07:46:00] fast might not have came running either. They buried each other. They are unbelievably competitive. You can find races where they’ve almost dropped to one another and the flood and the idea that like they’re out here, like setting it up for one another, I think is false.

And this race has evidence of that. Fair enough. All right. I think we’re about ready to get to our guests. We’re going to do that weird thing, JK, where you’re going to go. We’ll find a boutique coffee shop for 20 minutes while I talked to Pat. And then we’re going to bring you back in to talk with Steve Beck.

Anything else to say before we get to our guests looking forward to seeing everybody on a couple of a couple of days here. And I’m really excited about listening to the, uh, the little, a five minute interviews you’ve done. It should be a lot of fun. So make sure you check that out. It should be coming up pretty soon.

Absolutely. I have to work on that today. I’ve recorded a bunch. We’ll try to get a bunch more and we’ll do the best we can with that. Leading off with our very own Jonathan kitchen. Okay, here we go with Pat Cummings. And now I’d like to welcome back to the show from the thoroughbred idea foundation, the author of their [07:47:00] latest white paper, horse racing, and quote unquote legal sports betting.

Pat Cummings, Pat, how are you today? Hi Pete. Thanks for having me back on. It’s great to be with you again, start off by referencing an old saw that I don’t even know if it’s actually true though. You, as someone who’s lived in Asia, maybe knows. The reality of this a little bit more than I do, but I have heard the story that there is a Chinese character, pictograph, whatever you want to call it, that represents both crisis and opportunity.

It comes to mind to me when I look. At the issue of racing and legal sports betting. Is there anything to that relative to the second part of your comment? Yes. To the first part? I don’t know. And in my three years of living in Asia, I resigned myself to the fact that I could probably pick up a little Cantonese, but I was never, ever going to write any of it.

[07:48:00] So let me ask you about the title of the paper. Legal sports betting. I put the quote on quote around it. When I said it to you, as you had to meet earlier, why for the listeners who haven’t yet read the white paper, and if you haven’t, you really want to get on that, it’ll be going out via my Twitter paddle, tell you where else you can find it.

But where does that idea come from? That legally should be in quotes. The thought is what legal really means. And for most people, when they think of the term legal. It means allow that law permits this behavior, or it governs this behavior in some way, shape or form. And Pete, all of that is true. Um, it certainly does mean that and, and, and whatnot, but, uh, it means a lot more in the context of sports betting and.

I think it’s very keen for, for racing stakeholders to understand what legal [07:49:00] sports betting really means in the context of horse racing. And we have a fantastic quote in the paper and, and the, the, the raw paper itself. You can get it racing, think If you want to read it on the website, you can read it there.

If you want to download a PDF, you can do the same, but w we, we get, uh, the great insight for Maury Wolf, who every time I talked to Maury, I find myself, uh, having some situations, some story put in better perspective because Maury just has a way of doing that. And when we talked to Maury about this in particular, uh, as a long-time professional, better both of horses and other sports, Maury basically hit the nail on the head with, with the story we wanted to tell as more expensive.

And I’ll just read the quotes specifically legal. Is not just simply allowed by law. Legal means infrastructure, strategic planning, investment in innovation, mobile delivery, customer service, standards, [07:50:00] marketing and advertising, lots of advertising. And importantly, it comes with the assuredness being paid.

That adds up to a lot. Those are the words of Maury Wolf. And so. If you think that this general nationwide discussion following the Supreme court’s decision in may has gotten us to a point where, okay. You know, what has been kind of casual and illegal and maybe run in the neighborhood or people that, that.

Glom onto some online, uh, unregulated market to, to bet on sports. If you think that, that now that’s suddenly just going to become a loud and it’s okay. It’s not, it’s more than that. We’re talking about full fledged multi-billion dollar industry and all of the trappings of that, that will have an all out assault on the consumer.

And if you live in New Jersey, you experienced that. Now [07:51:00] someone recently mentioned to me somewhat casually that they believe that the early spend on marketing for forts betting in New Jersey in this one state of several million people has already exceeded that of some European countries, uh, where sports betting has been legal for a very long time.

And that’s just, you know what, we’re talking about. One state, one element. This is going to be overwhelming. And Americans don’t feel that now for the most part, but they’re going to in increasing numbers, it will infiltrate sports broadcast more and more and more as time goes by. It will be in every way, shape, imaginable a part of the sporting experience for the fan.

That’s a great thing. If you own a sports franchise, if you are in any way, shape or form. Compensated by sports because more people are going to follow sport far more than they ever have. [07:52:00] We quote in the paper, the president of Turner, who I saw at the consumer electronics show out in Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago, basically said, if you have a bet on a sporting event and you are scientifically studied 80 to 90% more likely to watch and to watch for longer.

And if that’s the case, then all of the trappings of sport and sport broadcasts become more valuable. Gambling makes this more valuable and the legal element. Of sports betting now will infiltrate. I dare to suggest almost every facet of our, of our lives as a consumer online, social, traditional broadcast, even traditional print, where it still exists, it’s going to be unavoidable and tying it back into racing.

This is the market in which our industry is going to have to compete. And that is where horsemen [07:53:00] and betters and everybody associated with this game. That’s how they have to start thinking the game has changed because the competition has just gotten so much more, incredibly fierce. Racing in the past.

Let me see if I’m summarizing this correctly. Their response to other competitive gaming has been okay. Where’s our piece. It seems to me what you’re saying in these terms that are, that they stop short of being a, an Orwellian level threat, but we’re heading there. It seems to me like you feel that the, Hey, where’s my piece.

It’s cool. As long as we get a taste argument is just not going to fly against this level of opponent, if you will. Yeah. We would suggest that that’s a path to, to even quicker destruction. Pete, the licensing situation first off is different in every state. Okay. So, so there may be some elements where horsemen are able to structure some sort [07:54:00] of deal and quote, unquote, get a cut.

The, the money is just not there. Like it is from a slot revenue standpoint. And the licensing is, is expected to become so much more broader based that racetracks are likely to only be part. You know, one small kind of slice of this element, horsemen and anticipating that they’re going to get a piece by simply getting some sort of revenue share.

And this is just it’s unlikely. The whole situation has changed. If we go back to the mid 1990s. And funny enough. I mean, I wrote my senior thesis and undergraduate on the efficacy of slot machines at Pennsylvania. Racetracks. Interesting. Here we, here we go. 20 years later, the situation’s very different.

The horse racing was used basically as an acceptable excuse to allow casinos to flourish in America. Right? Exactly. We were how they were legal. They were zoned areas where gambling was already acceptable. They took up a lot of space and were [07:55:00] traditionally away from kind of the main center of certain areas of urban centers that they weren’t just in the heart of them.

They kind of had their own little areas and they weren’t, they were out on their own. And, and I, I do think that Pennsylvania quite a bit about this, because it was in Pennsylvania, was really a hotbed for this and this discussion. And. 20 years ago, they were begging for them and they, they got them about six years after the begging really kind of came into play in a lot of people, credit that to the smarty Jones influence, but kind of separate to all of that, that now doesn’t exist.

That that concern, uh, has been alleviated as casinos have grown beyond just the race CNO. The time and place where it was kind of like Atlantic city and Blocksi, and Bosure Shreveport Reno, Vegas, and maybe some in the various tribal gaming areas, that’s changed. It is much more acceptable and people don’t need racetracks anymore to gamble.

So [07:56:00] racing is not going to be in a position to simply claim a slice of anything in this new environment. And. Our response to that is forget the slice claiming compete in this market. How do they do that? How to race tracks a strive to stand toe to toe and feature. What many of us believe is a superior intellectual challenge and honestly, an overall better gambling game, but what can we do to stand toe to toe with this new behemoth and come out with our heads held high.

Well, that’s the thing, Pete. We know we can speak completely anecdotally here, but there is a great degree of accomplishment in putting together a, um, you know, a nice trifecta play or a super play or pick three or pick four, you know, there is some accomplishment to that fact and that there is a, uh, A feeling that a horseplayer gets and knowing that they’ve been able to put that combination together, turn a very handsome [07:57:00] profit.

That’s a good feeling. And I don’t think that’s going to go away. It’s a lot different than maybe saying, getting, getting it right in the Superbowl where you thought that the Rams would, would get less than two sacks. Uh, on the Patriots, he said, well, you know, this is, uh, this is a toss of a coin. Well, most sports bets are tosses of the coin.

And when you get a 50, 50 prop, right. Uh, okay. If you get maybe five of them right together, that feels pretty good, but it’s a lot different than, than the horse race. What we need to consider I think is, is the method by which growth is happening. All of the growth in sports betting. Is fixed on every sports related bet that is being made in these new markets in Jersey, in Pennsylvania and Rhode Island and everything that’s going to come.

The players are going to know what their end result is going to be. You know, at the moment they make their bets, they get to make a decision knowing this [07:58:00] is what I’m going to get at the end right now, racing. Can’t do that. That is one of the great flaws in the parimutuel system. It is a benefit in some respects, uh, and I don’t see a fixed odds replacement coming for trifectas or supers or pick fours or fives or sixes.

And so racing still has an advantage in, in that capacity. All new generations going forward. New bedding customers that are just, that will be aging into the market are going to be confronted with a reality that is almost entirely fixed odds and your existing customers. Who’ve been betting in the wind pools and the exact is, and the double pools pair mutually.

Where they might have a better idea of what their return is. They are going to be courted with this tsunami of advertising and tremendous wave of infrastructure and investment. That’s coming after them and saying, come play our fixed odds game. And if you’re horse racing, if you are the groups [07:59:00] who have to approve how your signal is being used and how your product is being delivered to the betting customers, you have to say, why am I not playing in this market?

Why, why is my sport? Why is my. Option not available to these customers who are pursuing fixed odds wagers. So our argument is don’t go for the slice compete. Let’s talk about the specifics and there’s more to do on the whole notion of how we can compete, but the specifics of getting fixed odd bedding.

Futures on the Kentucky Derby, anti post markets for the breeders cup, things like this that I believe not only create great gambling opportunities, but also make people much more invested in the gambling side and the sporting side. I think it’s a very appealing notion what has to happen for that to be legal.

You [08:00:00] took two examples that are very unique. And we we’ve heard the stories most recently in Mississippi, Johnny Avello through the draft King sports book down there in, I think it’s a diaper Ville trying to offer a future book on the Derby and kind of getting shut down and doing so. But part of that was that the Mississippi casinos did not have a relationship with the Kentucky horseman.

Or certainly not Churchill downs. And, and I can actually understand that. Whereas in Nevada, through the Las Vegas dissemination corporation, there was relationship at least specific to the tote. I think the breeders’ cup would, would happily be involved in some way, shape or form in a fixed odds betting product, but take the biggest examples for a second, Pete, and just, just put those aside, the horsemen have a say in the distribution of their product.

They have a vested interest in the sustainability of racing. The racetracks increasingly do not. When most of these range tracks have [08:01:00] full fledged casinos, and we address this in the paper they have full-fledged casinos and poker rooms and table aims. They’re a casino. They are a full service casino, property and racing as simply a part of this for all intents and purposes, a very expensive part of, kind of a greater picture.

We believe that the horsemen need to take control as basically being the only people who are. Most concerned about the sustainability of their own product. So if the racetracks are falling out or operating casinos on their own, uh, racing, isn’t as important to them as a, as a sustainable path forward, the horsemen are the ones that need to be most concerned about that.

And all of the various industries that trickle down from racing, the feed mills, the transport agencies, everything like that, the hay growers. Those are the ones that need to be concerned about this. And if there’s the [08:02:00] horsemen that are holding in their possession, the rights to distribute their signals and what our suggestion is, they are the ones that they’re most concerned about the sustainability of this business.

They need to be the one cutting deals to offer. Casinos to offer the racetracks to work with the racetracks to come up with fixed odds, wagers. On racing, will it happen? Is another story. Yeah, I would suggest to, in some respects that, that the horsemen aren’t necessarily even thinking about this, we’ve seen little bits and pieces of it in New Jersey in New Jersey is a very unique example.

They’re very far ahead of the curve. Monmouth is essentially owned by the horseman. They have the William Hill sports book and they got a couple of fixed odds bets on the Haskell approved. On Haskell day at Monmouth, they handle over $21,000 on three fixed odds bets that had [08:03:00] almost no advanced.

Marketing, no advanced whatever you want to call it. There’s basically in there’s one small area of the racetrack $21,000 was bed on fixed odds outcomes of one race. There were head to heads which garnered the most, that was about $15,000. And then about 14,000 rather. And then about 4,000 each on margin of victory in the Haskell.

And then there was a pick three crop plus a baseball game. There were some limits on it. They put a, they put a cap on it. Well, I thought it was interesting. Pete is here is a product that’s never been offered in horse racing in New Jersey that is offered in this very small kind of back corner of, of Monmouth park on one day.

And it was handling more than the early, uh, some of the early exotic wagers. Which were fully distributed across all of North America through all the ADWS on that Monmouth. It’s pretty interesting. That’s for sure. No discussion about how to [08:04:00] compete can be complete without some talk about pricing horsemen.

Sometimes seem to understand the importance of having competitive pricing. Other times they seem resistant to the idea of what I would call it more competitive pricing. How important is that to making this plan work? Well unefficient sports betting market tends to be priced at roughly around that 5% Mark and not all of the States are going to get to that point just yet.

It’ll eventually get there. The key point for, for men is to recognize that your current product, and we say this, I think very clearly in the paper, the parimutuel model at roughly a blended 20% takeout, antiquates quite quickly when all of the development, all of the infrastructure, all of the, the investment is being put behind a product that is exponentially cheaper than what you’re offering.

And everybody knows what their return is going to be when you place a bet. So if you don’t, don’t [08:05:00] want to talk about pricing on the parimutuel model. That’s fine. You’re just going to get run over, or you’re going to get steamrolled. If, if racing does not find a way to compete within this, this marketplace, that is where all of the growth is taking place right now.

Uh, this, this would be the equivalent of, of filmmakers arguing over what percentage of cut to get off of tapes. They sell to blockbuster in 1998 and, uh, ignoring what the rights are for streaming. And it’s coming down the pipe a couple of years after that. If you spend all your time focusing on how you’re going to put, pay blockbuster, how Blockbuster’s going to pay you, you missed all of the growth opportunity that was coming down the road.

That’s a good metaphor. I think as these discussions continue one other way, I feel like racing could compete and I know this would involve. A radical technological improvement, the kind of which racing has been hesitant to make in other [08:06:00] situations. But I feel like if everybody could get a real-time feed, In running bedding through an exchange wagering type of an interface could be game-changing in an amazing way.

I mean, it’ll take people time to get up and running on it, but I think it could be a really exciting product that would attract. New fans and give people something to bet on that they’ve never really seen before, but I don’t think it works when everybody’s looking at pictures from a different source summer ahead, some are behind, I think the technology would have to come first.

Is that something that you’re excited about that you could see being part of racing’s future? Without question, Pete. Uh, one of the random things we even offered is the suggestion that racetracks put up a camera at the half mile pole in the photo finish camera, and they take fixed odds bets on who’s leading it for the first half mile with a half mile ago.

Basically every race becomes too. You don’t pay off on [08:07:00] prize money, but you don’t get a win in your call. I mean, in the NBA, you for whether or not you let it half-time same thing would apply here. This type of changes in the wagering landscape, all of these things are going to happen in sports betting.

We have some very interesting insight from a fellow that works for a company called swish analytics, Bobby scarf, who talks about how this is all going to be customer driven, going forward. Customers are going to want to bet on the equivalent of who’s leading after the first six furlongs and a mile and a 16th race, or who’s going to win based on what has happened.

Essentially in running wagering, the exchange offers a lot of opportunity for players to get involved. And I know the biggest players want to be incentivized for providing liquidity in those markets. And liquidity is always kind of the big concern. That’s the player concern. The industry concern is the funding model.

And, and I believe I’ve heard something to the effect of the funding out of an exchange wage where you [08:08:00] basically need to make about 13 bets on average, to make up for the equivalent of the takeout of one racing bet on the parimutuel system. And that scares a lot of people that scares horsemen and the thinking that the revenue stream isn’t going to be the same, but you know what that’s where the future is.

And if you’re not embracing it now in this type of landscape, the prospect of in running wagering or of increased opportunities on the same event, beyond the traditional menu that exists. Now, you’re not thinking right. You’re thinking with a 1990s mindset in a sport and in a sporting landscape that is vastly vastly changed.

And you need to adapt to this kind of new way of thinking, uh, or else that the fears for the sport and gambling on this sport are very real and very deserved are tracks allowed to offer fixed odds on anything. I’m sorry, that’s kind of an ignorant question, but just to give listeners a little bit of an overview, I mean the photo [08:09:00] finish camera at the half mile pole fixed Dodd’s idea is really interesting.

Where could that happen anytime soon? I think there’s a lot of things for, for lawyers to discuss on these matters and that they will do plenty well in the next few years gets itself together. But the general conversation that I’ve had has been that the interstate horse racing act actually enables racing to take cross state bets on fixed odds, wagers.

It does not explicitly prohibit fixed odds, wagers on horse racing. Nor does it implicitly allow it either. It doesn’t say only parimutuel wagering. It does specifically mention parimutuel, but it doesn’t negate other potential wagers so that the cross state lines that apply and that actually puts racing at a huge advantage over other sports right now, where you may only be able to.

Traditionally operated in the [08:10:00] Pennsylvania pool or the New Jersey pool from a fixed art standpoint. You’re limited to that, but horse racing should have an exemption based on several of the conversations I’ve had with, with those who are more knowledgeable about kind of those machinations than me, but then it comes down to what the individual gaming and duration commissions permit.

But let’s think of this. It’s even simpler. Pete, why are there no race tracks running in America at 10 or 11:00 AM on a Saturday morning? That’s a good one. Why, why are there not people trying to take advantage of those opportunities and fill the markets? If you look into the future of sports betting, I think what we’re going to see is a much greater separation of games.

Game times to spread out the starting points to engage customers kind of different points so that not all of the East coast games are starting at seven o’clock. For example. And that they’re going to start spreading that out to, to engage the betting customer more. Why isn’t racing, doing the same. Why [08:11:00] do all the East coast tracks have to start between like 1230 and one?

Why aren’t people trying to take advantage of the availability of that? Capital that’s out there and at least test the waters and see what can happen. I think there’s an opportunity there for that. And, and, and it just kind of goes part and parcel with this observation of the marketplace and what opportunities really exist for customers, not just in the existing parimutuel pools, of course, but, but what could be going forward with, uh, with various fixed odds opportunities?

I’m proud of the way I brought in the segment, because those are the two themes. Of this issue. There is crisis. There is opportunity. Hopefully the work you’re doing in the white paper in general, over at the thoroughbred idea foundation can help spread the word. I’ll close with one final question, a version of which I’ve asked you before.

Listeners interested in helping. What can anybody, if anything, do to help spread this message and show that [08:12:00] we support these efforts and really like the ideas that you’re putting out there, Pete, you and I are very engaged on social media. Maybe not always on the same topics, but you know, we see the dialogue that’s out there and it’s very clear that there are a lot of people who care.

The problem is very little, is actually going to get done on those platforms. A lot of it is just talking back and forth amongst the same people. You need to take this message to the streets. You need to take this message direct to the people who have the influence, who have the ability to do this and behind closed doors.

That’s what we’re doing. Okay. So as much as we’re putting our reports out there, we’re allowing the industry to digest it. We’re taking it to the people directly. We’re taking it to the stakeholders, to the Horsemen’s groups, having those conversations. Okay. We’re trying to get laws changed in the state of New York on breakage or trying to get some jurisdictions to adopt category one, stewarding over category two.

And with this we’re talking direct to the Horsemen’s groups. We want them. To be ahead of [08:13:00] this. We want to present our well-researched findings to them, discuss it with them. And I’ve already had a couple of those discussions just in the three days since we released this paper, you have an opinion on this.

If you feel strongly, it’s one thing to talk about it on social media, but it’s another to, to find the email of someone in a Horseman’s a group in your HPPA in, in your tha locally, reach out to them. Because those are the people that are really holding the future of this sport in their hands. I know a lot of people that listen to the, to the program are gamblers.

I’m a gambler to Pete, but I love the sport and I want it to continue and we need to be engaging those people who are in those positions of power to change the future. And, and that’s where it’s going to get done. It’s it’s not going to get done, just bickering back and forth, kind of in, in, in the social media sphere, it can be, it can be a little helpful, but we got to take it and have those direct relationships with people.

And, and if you just try and do that randomly on your own, you might be surprised by how much [08:14:00] people can engage with you. Fantastic stuff, Pat. I really appreciate your coming on here and can’t think of a better note to close off on that. Thanks, Pete. Okay. Now a segment I’m very excited for bringing in a guy who has done so much for racing in his broadcast.

Not just that he’s done a whole lot for the two guys, also on this call, bringing in now the shoe on the other foot, Steve Beck, as you make an appearance on the, in the money players podcast, how are you? My friend I’m well, I appreciate you having me. It’s a big thrill. I’ve thought about it for weeks. Ever since you launched this thing, you’re a very kind, man.

I want to have you talk about the NHC coming up the end of this week. How long have you been going out there and how important is this event to the broadcasting you do throughout the year? This’ll be the [08:15:00] fifth year. I was speculating on that today, but it’s definitely the fifth because John O’Neill. Was the first champion that we were there for.

And then Paul Mitsis Ray Arsenault and Chris Littlemore. So fifth, basically you and I were doing so much regular contest conversation that it just became sort of implicit that I at least go out and experience it right from the get-go the sort of free form broadcasting that went on. Six hours plus on Saturday and Sunday, it was so well-received and people said they had so much fun following the action, that it was impossible not to follow up with it.

So that year two year three, and it’s become a tradition. So it is one of the highlights of the broadcast. You’re going out to Vegas. It’s become a. [08:16:00] It most definitely is JK. I know you were particularly excited about having Steve on and I’m sure you’re going to have some questions for him here along the way, but you were telling me something off air before about why this visit meant so much to you.

Like, like a kid with divorced parents. I have my fathers together at the same time. Um, I, my first. Even stint in media was when I called into Steve’s show as a listener, just to try to like, give my idea about how Bobby’s kitten should run down the Hill. And I thought I called in Casey, put me on hold.

Steve brought me in and how I was ready to rock and roll. And I was excited and I set it all. And then, uh, and then it ended up working out. So who would’ve known that, uh, that would have turned into this podcast and the. The fun, other opportunities that I’ve had. So I just wanted to have a chance to thank my, uh, my racing media parents.

[08:17:00] There, you have it, Steve, you created this monster. It now you and I bought it. This is, this was it’s one of the great gags in all of the loss of broadcast racing, ride, cast history that you and I somehow, and I suppose we got us, we got a fall in nip camera. We, you know, there’s, there’s so many people that, uh, That helped, uh, you know, unleash the power of Jacob.

They say success has many fathers, so does Jonathan Katie

so well put JK, what else do you have for Steve? Steve. I just want to make sure that we’re going to get a, more of an appearance this year on the show. Uh, some of my favorite, uh, some of my favorite moments when you’re out for the NHC is when, when you get the Mathias brothers over and, uh, last year you were lucky enough to introduce the world to a figure that all three of us know very well and, and the famous Mar of the vet runner [08:18:00] Marv, the bat runner is one of those hidden gems that only a certain.

Segment a certain satellite core might, might encounter. And th the Matisse’s are their radio gold. Jerry, it’s quite remarkable. I mean, starting with Paul’s win and then. That gave rise to the opportunity that, uh, to have Paul and Duke together that year when, when Paul and Duke were both at the final table, the whole group has really been an invaluable exposure to the inner workings of serious professional gamblers to the wider horse racing.

Community, because the Matisse’s had a bit of a mystique and obviously in Saratoga, you know, everyone knew them and knew them personally, [08:19:00] the rest of the industry had some of these crazy notions that they were, you know, somehow something, you know, mystical, like. Some sort of, uh, what are the masons that like, whereas he crits society.

Yeah, exactly. But they had some conniving scheming methods to them and cause some ridiculous suggestions and the opportunity to kind of bring them out into the light and, you know, hear their understanding and, and have them. Offer their insight to more casual players and, and aspiring players has really been, I think, uh, important and Marvin of course, is, is part of their whole atmosphere.

It’s, it’s a bit of a sitcom cast and Marvin, Marvin is like the Jonathan Winters character, Betty sit-com of [08:20:00] the seventies and eighties. JK. Do you get that reference? He said, Jonathan, I that’s. The only thing I knew about don’t know, Jonathan Winters is I tell you what though. Mark is going to be a little upset this year.

I’ve seen an email that treasure Island is tightening the clamps on outside food, on the, on the ballroom.

Somebody told me that and I told them they were wrong. I was like, no, we bring in outside food all the time, but I guess that’s so that rumor is true. Huh? Mark is going to be very upset about that. I don’t know. I just see him in like an X, X, X, L trench coat with a bags, you know, sorta stuffed into and around the, uh, the garment.

I he’ll figure out a way, way. He’s he’s resourceful. These are resourceful. That one, Steve, we definitely have to have you back at a later time to do some in-depth stuff on your background. This time we’re going to keep it. Pretty narrow. And just talk a little bit more about the contest experience and the broadcasting you do [08:21:00] in that regard.

Try to get people pumped up for next weekend. Do you have anything special planned as far as this year’s NHC broadcast go or will it be our usual super fun fire drill. Grab everybody who’s around and see what kind of stories we can get. It much like any visit that that I do out on location. It’s pretty freeform and pretty well served doing that because the minute you start to try to lay a foundation and schedule things in, I find myself in trouble.

I am much better off just letting it. Unfold. I do know that, you know, beside you being on hand and being there for the co-hosting duties, Rick Hammerly is coming, uh, on at least I think Thursday and Friday, rich Ang is going to be around for regular uh co-hosting and, uh, appearances. And from there. Well, just bring in a lot of former [08:22:00] champions.

Every time we get a chance to bring in, uh, Mr. Michael Bay chalk, or a Mr. Stanley Pavlin we love doing that. And, uh, hearing from, you know, hearing from the living legends, the ones that they can find, there’s a, there’s a couple, I guess, that have missed that has kind of disappeared. We also, of course, are due for an extended Bavan visit.

And that, that is if, if he is. Is able to hold themselves together until Thursday or Friday, because he’s been like a dervish online. I gotta tell ya. He’s been, he’s been like a maniac. The last 10. I spoke to him actually for this NHC special, that’s going to be coming out in short order. After this show.

That show is basically short interviews with a lot of the people competing and he sounded like he was getting down to business. I’ll put it that way. He definitely still had some strong opinions and a lot to say, but it seemed to me he was ready to channel his [08:23:00] energy into this opportunity of a lifetime.

Dave of course, playing for $6 million in bonuses this weekend. Can’t wait to see what happens there. General question for you, Steve, about the tournament world. Are you feeling still that this is one of the, the growth areas in racing? Do you feel like as much as we’ve progressed there still more ground to gain when it comes to contests and the overall sport of racing?

I think so. And I, but I’m strictly going by what I hear from the active. Player community. And then what I hear on the backend from the organizers. So whether it’s whether it’s from the BC people, whether it’s from the racetrack people, whether it’s from the NPRA. Yeah, listen to what everybody’s pulses for any, any certain moment.

It does feel [08:24:00] like there was a little bit of fishtailing that went on out of, uh, the BCBC, uh, issues. Uh, The year before at Del Mar there’s the ongoing concerns that are voiced about the financial structure of particularly at AAC itself, that it does have a bit of a cumbersome takeout structure, but the administration of an event like this has to be paid for the people that are administering this kind of, uh, of an event.

They have to be paid for. I mean, it’s not, I, I know that everybody seems to think that everyone should work for free. Everyone associated with racing is supposed to work for free to the, to the, you know, the benefit of everyone at large. I find that a very curious posture. So I think while people may grouse about.

Some of the, you know, [08:25:00] the expenses that are taken off the top, the spirit of the contest, particularly NHC remains very sacrosanct. The fact that you cannot buy in to get to the NHC makes it. Very special and it’s still makes it no matter what people, some of the players may complain about their way to, you know, getting their seats, the difficulty factor and the exclusivity factor.

So makes it that much more desirable. It’s special when you get there. And when you get through to the last day, when you get to the final table, I mean, the aura around the contest. And around the room, uh, we’ve got the, you know, we’ve got that special experience to be able to relate to people how special it is when they get there.

And then once they get there, no matter how they [08:26:00] do all they talk about is getting back. That obviously is something that. It has grown organically and then it’s to the industry’s credit to the NCRA credit. And of course you have the origins of the contest of VRF and everybody that was involved, this is, this is a winner and it has to be cultivated.

It has to be pruned and tweaked, uh, at all times. But yes, this continues to be a great area of target and, and of the player interest and goal setting and the live money side of it that continues to grow and evolve. Look at what we just saw at Pegasus enter 90 people, 190 entrance putting up. 12,000 each.

I mean that says something, the Kentucky Derby bedding challenge that Churchill kicked off that continues to go well and grow. So there’s a lot of things about the whole atmosphere that is [08:27:00] working, but it does always need. Careful pending and careful administration to always work, to make it better and make it as, as attractive as possible to the players that might be injured.

I’ll piggyback one quick thought off what you were saying about the NHC and the cost structure. There’s no bigger fan of the NHC than Paul Sherman. I think that’s fair to say. He’s had an incredible amount of success in the event. He has helped with the players committee. He’s an NHC hall of Famer, and even he says, The NHC is not about the value.

It’s about the experience of the event. And that’s just something I always like to underline. I call it the coolest horseplayer party of the year. It’s fun to be their closest thing. We have took a proper HorsePlayers convention with no disrespect to a Quester con and the cool things that are happening with that event.

It’s still not the NHC to be there. Competing against hanging out with your peers. [08:28:00] It’s pretty special stuff. J K I believe you had one more and then we’ll let Steve get on with his day. Right? You mentioned experience, right. And it made me think of something is, is the two of you guys, both are not, uh, this is kind of a question for both of you.

Neither of you are a shy to, to, to get to the window. Do you ever get to the NHC and as guys that don’t really participate because of your role in racing. Do you kind of wish like, man, I, this would be kind of fun. I wish I was. I wish I was playing today. I would like play. And my only, my only real contest experience came in 2006 at the world series.

When I was just getting involved with the show. John Parata had a pair of entries that, uh, had been traded for advertising for, uh, for the radio show. And I ended up coming out to Vegas. I, at first time I had been in Vegas. In, uh, and I’m, I might not even be exaggerating when I say 25 years. Uh, the [08:29:00] last time I’d been there, it was Proctor and gamble.

Uh, when I was working on Folgers and I had so much fun, uh, met Johnny D for the first time and had a terrific three days. My first day I got blank. The second day I hit like four races. Then the third day I ended up 11th. In day money and just missed a little prize, but I just had a riot. I started a play a little bit at that time because we weren’t really talking contest on the show at that point.

That’s 2006, 2007. And I, I found it to be problematic because I found that it was affecting my regular. Weekday weekend play. And I couldn’t really compartmentalize, you know, there wasn’t as much, uh, of the live money out there at that time. I can’t believe it’s 12 years ago, but I really wasn’t comfortable.

I, I [08:30:00] found myself sort of rethinking everything about how I was approaching. And that’s why so often Pete and I, you know, Pete, you and I would talk strategy because I always found that it was not easy. To break away from the thought process of your ticket building and bank role management to get into the game theory of, of the contests.

And I struggled with that. And, and when, when it started to impact my, my regular play, I stopped, I stopped playing the contest at that point, but then not too long after we were. Doing it, you know, from, uh, an observation point and, uh, doing the punditry on it. So I didn’t think it was even appropriate that I play, but I absolutely would love to dive in.

At some point I left the place of more of the cash and certainly there’s no reason not to play some cash goddess. My answer is basically the same. I had a similar issue messing around with [08:31:00] mythical money tournaments. The mental jujitsu got to be a little bit much. And in my role as a pundit, even though I can technically now play, it doesn’t feel, it just doesn’t feel quite right, but there is definitely a part of me, JK.

Seeing the people cheering when a long shot wins and the excitement in the ballroom, it would be really fun to be a part of that. But for now, I’ll just settle for a vicariously rooting friends in, and because of this podcast and because of being on Steve’s show all the time. Which we haven’t plugged properly, by the way.

That’s my fault at the races, which you can find on Sirius XM, and you can also find live streams and archives on Steve I feel like I know so many people I’ll just enjoy getting the vibe areas, thrill through them and that’s, uh, that’s good enough for me, at least for now. And Steve just want to thank you so much for taking the time out, coming on today.

When can people tune in and check out this coverage next weekend? Well, we’ll do the regular Monday [08:32:00] through Friday shows on Thursday or Friday. Obviously I get there Wednesday night. So the usual nine to noon at the races. Then on Friday, the coverage we’ve typically started at about between two and two 30, basically, uh, on the afternoons and we’ve gone.

Till about seven, seven 30 Eastern time on Friday, we go a little bit later on Saturday and then for a championship Sunday, final table, we go, I think till about eight 30. So it’s anywhere from five to seven hours of, of coverage. Those three days, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And then I’ll stay in Vegas for Sunday night and do a Monday recap show by the time the.

By the time we get done Sunday, you can’t really leave. So, and I’m going to, I’m going to new Orleans anyway for Rissa star week. So, uh, I’ll spend one more day. Yeah, one more day in Vegas. Uh, before heading to new Orleans, do you ever sleep, [08:33:00] Steve? This schedule is insane. There’s no rest at all. I’m not a big guy.

I, I, I’m a modest, uh, I’m a modest sleeper and I, uh, I actually, uh, team has had just about enough of it yet. Actually. I said, I’ve been home since the second week in December. And so eight weeks is about as long as, as. As long as any married couple should stay together straight. I don’t recommend much longer than that.

I know who’s at Paul McCartney and Linda McCartney. They they’ve never spent more than one night apart. Their whole marriage. I God bless them. I don’t know how they do it. It’s time for those boot heels to be wandering. It sounds like, and there’ll be wandering out Los Vegas way. Steve absolute last thing people can listen to these broadcasts on Sirius XM and internet, or is some of it internet only.

Where can folks find the show? It’s typically just go to the website at, just off the stream. Uh, it says, listen, live the live link, [08:34:00] the Uh, I’ve just got a robust, robust, the service for streaming because it’s tough for it’s tough. The last thing I would want to do with, with serious, we did it on Sirius the first year, but the problem is.

They’ll give me a set of hours. What are we going to do on Sunday when they, when they cut us off at seven o’clock and the contest is still going. So, uh, I just, in terms of the, the non radio show, Podcasting just right on the stream, click on the, listen, the listen link, and you can tune in and you can do it.

You can do it on your phone. You can do it on your laptop, whatever it is, easy to just listen and write from the website. If you’re a player who’s competing thinking, Oh, I’d like to listen to that. Good news. You can. Lot of people listen in the subsequent weeks, you can just go to the archive. Steve is the website.

Steve Beck is the man. And I mean that [08:35:00] in all senses. Appreciate your time today, sir. And look forward to working with you again soon. Well, I appreciate it. And can’t wait to have you there because, uh, I can, I can get up and walk away. And I know that you will, you will carry the torch. It’s like the Olympic, uh, like the Olympic flame being, being trumped through, through the countryside.

I just handed off the feet and of course we’re all just there to root Jonathan. This is all an elaborate scheme to publicize the Jonathan. That’s all. That’s all we care about. Oh, you’re so kind guy he’s so kind. And with that, we’re going to wrap up this loaded edition of the, in the money players podcast.

Remember special edition coming in the next day or two, the proper and HC preview show. For now I’d like to thank Pat Cummings. I’d like to thank Steve Beck would love to thank [08:36:00] Jonathan kitchen. Most of all, I want to thank all of you, the listeners and I we’re going to throw in another, thank you to the first two sponsors to come on board for this in the money players podcast ride.

Thanks. So much to our friends at the thoroughbred retirement foundation and 10 strike racing, we will be back sooner than you think. I’m Peter Thomas foreign Italian. May you win all your photos.

By the way I taped the show, I taped the Fox sports show, but I haven’t had a chance to watch it yet. So I maybe that’s what I’ll do now. That’s why I haven’t said how wonderful you were, even though I know you were, I was, for [08:37:00] some reason, I don’t know why I was nervous. Like the first 10 minutes of the IFB in my ear, people are yelling, Greg you’re on, in three hours and it was just throwing me off.

And then I kind of settled in a little bit. And, uh, it worked out. I ended the show with a 20 to one winner. I’ve heard about enough of your champagne problems. Oh, the IFB. I don’t need it. I don’t need to hear it, man. You’re and definitely the most fun part of the whole show and as great a job as not just JK did, but the whole broadcast team over there at Fox sports.

My highlight was watching him try to be humble. Steve, when they came back on the air, after that 20 to one shot, one.

 Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is the Friday, February 1st edition show number 11. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you in the Brooklyn bunker joined for the first part of this show and the last part of this show, but not the middle part of this show by a man, you know, in love.

He is the people’s champion, Jonathan kitchen. What’s up JK. [08:38:00] At the open right there. You heard Pete giggle a little bit because I told a good joke. So next time you see me at the racetrack, ask me and I’ll tell you what it was, but it’s almost clean enough to put at the end of the credits, but I’m not going to do it this time.

All right. First of all, have to start off. I’m going to ask you for some advice, JK last night. I sent a couple of tweets. I wish I didn’t send. When you make a mistake on Twitter, do you delete tweet? I’m inclined not to. I’m inclined just to say, Hey, that’s where my head was at at that time. And I’m going to leave it there, even though I regret doing it.

Where do you stand on the whole? Do you delete a tweet? It just depends. I guess the biggest issue I think is like, and I’m think you’re going to address it now is like if the tweak. Is misconceived. So people think you meant something else than what you meant. I mean, a couple of years ago, in fact, this is almost a year a union.

I had to tell someone to F off and I don’t regret it cause I really meant it. But, but if there’s a misconception for what you’re trying to say, then maybe clarify it or maybe delete it. I mean, whatever you, [08:39:00] well, I’ll tell you the story and then you can tell me, so basically. It was a classic case of talking out of school and then that led to, to confusion.

Right? So I sent a little thing about being angry at a certain decision of a certain ex-employer, which unfortunately people took to mean, uh, my own lack of a current. Freelance relationship with our old pals at DRF. That is not what I was reacting to. I can’t talk about what I was reacting to. So therefore I should have kept my mouth shut.

It was a moment of peak as for our situation. I mean, I can honestly say so a couple of weeks into this new gig, this is where we were meant to be all along. Absolutely. That’s not just talking again. Very grateful to the opportunities at DRF. No doubt in my mind, it was time to move on. It was probably time to move on a year ago and the wonderful [08:40:00] response we’re getting from the market in terms of the sponsorship conversations suggest that’s right as well, really no bad feelings about them.

Ex a couple of recent decisions that will be discussed in a future show. So with that being the dynamic. I got to read the tweet again, but I love Jay . I like Marty muggy. I don’t know Mike well personally, but I think he does a good job if I’m leading someone else. Well, I apologize. You’re leaving out like 20 people, right?

Part of the, the, the tweet said like, maybe like unfollowing everyone from that situation, which that could maybe be confusing. Yeah, I was angry. I was angry. I said it was silly. I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t have said it. Well. I mean, you should, but you should clarify nothing to do with the people that work there.

Correct. There are so many good people among the rank and file. Obviously, I still look at the thing every day. I use their PP products. I’m not anti them at all. I’ve just seen [08:41:00] some decisions at the corporate level. Again, accepting myself. I am in a better place. They did me a favor, but there’s some other people for whom I don’t think that’s the case.

And I find it very obnoxious, uh, the way that the company’s going about business, you can like a place in like the work and like the people and still be angry at the company. But you’re right. That was probably where it went too far. Anyway. Enough about that? Just wanted to clarify. And thank you to so many people sent me notes, just, you know, either supportive or are you okay?

That kind of thing. The phone has been blowing up and thank you to people who are concerned. And with that, we’re going to move on to this week’s episode in earnest. And we’re going to start by looking back at a performance from last weekend that we didn’t get a chance to talk about. And that is the performance of hidden scroll in the maiden race on the undercard of the Pegasus.

This was a blow away. Good performance to me even more so, because we don’t expect a bill, Matt, [08:42:00] first time starter to come and break like that. Especially from a gate where half the horses in the world seem to break slow. The figure came back, unbelievably strong. It justify like one Oh four. Now, granted, there are some opinions out there that maybe the inside was a little better.

Maybe speed was good on the track, but I have to believe that being in Belmont’s hands and presumably doing that all on his raw talent, he will have more in the tank as continues to work with the horse. I see him as a serious player on the triple crown trail and at the 14 to one being offered over there.

I think there’s worse ways you can go in the Kentucky Derby market. Your thoughts. Phenomenal. He was, he was unbelievable. He was, the race was over at the three eights. It was over it. The three eights. It was a little bit sneaky that he was eight to one. If it is the Mo barn, he trains at pacing. So those are all things that can lead a horse like that to drift to eight to one, right first on debut drew down on the rail, [08:43:00] blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There was like two, Chad’s a Todd, there’s a bunch of stuff going on. It can lead to the eight to one. You say drift to me, the horse was bet was 12 to one on the morning line bet down to eight. Here’s what I’ll say. The surface is obviously concerned. We’ll talk about that. When we’re handicapping these races, these races, these big performances that are run on sloppy tracks.

You have to take them with at least a grain of salt, because you don’t know if the move the horse up. You don’t know if the figure was hard to make any figure. Maker will tell you that the changing surface like that is complicated. Here’s what I will say. It took a really long time for someone to beat the Apollo curse and whether it was a curse or not.

It was a, it was a situation of just saying a late developing horse is just, it’s just too hard to get them ready for that. If you’ve got to pick any trainer in the world to break the curse, based on his training style, it would be the guy out in the West coast with white hair. If you pick the guy that’s most likely to do it, it’s the guy.

The trained, uh Yoshida and cigar and all those other guys and bill [08:44:00] Mott, I think it’s going to be a huge ask. And I don’t think that that bill is going to actually crank the horse the way that you would think that maybe a Baffert would to get him ready for that interest. Let’s see what happens in the next race.

He’s definitely talented. If I could bet on him to win the Travers right now, I would. But the Derby is going to be, it’s gonna be a quick ask. Would you sell the 14 to one? In other words, would you lay that bet to me? Or are you in the hold camp or you would do nothing? Let me do my favorite thing, which is asking a question to answer your question with a question.

What’s his price. If improbable doesn’t lose again, and if, uh, improbable doesn’t lose again and then hidden scroll wins. The rest of the race is one of these six to one, seven to one on Derby day. Yeah, I, it’s hard to see him being much shorter than that. Realistically, you know, there’s going to be 20 horses, you know, there’ll be various flavors of the month.

So with that in mind, that makes it, but that didn’t answer the question of sell versus hold. Well, I wanted to get your answer there and then make my decision. I would sell. Okay. May have to make a little wager here. [08:45:00] Things got to go. Right. And I think that if, if you, if you were, if from a real bookmaking standpoint, if you were exposed to the 14 to one.

I feel like , there’d be lots of options for you to, to lay off some of that action and other areas where you weren’t as exposed, uh, come the first Saturday in may. Yeah. He was bet somebody knew something about this horse. It seems to me, or, or made a great impression in the paddock or something. Because to me, this is what I would have just assumed would have walked out of there.

And then that surface would have really worked against him. It’s a terrific point you make about. Potentially tricky figure to make on the service. It’s coming back everywhere in the similar range and very strong, very, very interesting charge. I like your idea for the Travers. Unfortunately, there’s no such thing that I can tell anyway of a Travers future book, but we’ll keep that in mind.

Maybe we’ll see if we can get some of our friends, friends from across the pond production [08:46:00] meeting in inside the show. And I’m like, I told you this shit, uh, Paul Matisse, we were hanging out at Gulf stream and he went on this like. Brilliant. Brilliant. You know, beautiful mind a thing where he does, if you’ve ever seen Paul do it.

It’s great. And he’s talking about this idea and we’ll have to wait until after the NHC. I just want to tease it. We’ll have him on to talk about it, of merging the future pools with the actual tote. So essentially whatever action is taken on the future, on the futures from as far out as you want, you roll it in to the T two to then adjust the price.

And it’s all one big pool starting way, way early. He explains it brilliantly. We’ll have him on to talk about it. It’s really something pretty interesting. That sounds incredible. And not. That dissimilar to some of the stuff Pat Cummings has talked about in terms of the, some of the technology that’s out there to take money from different pools.

And I don’t quite understand it, but a way to tie liquidity together in a way that could be [08:47:00] very beneficial, both to horse players and the industry. We’re going to have Pat on actually on Monday, not to talk about that, but to talk about the new white paper that’s going to be coming out from. The thoroughbred idea foundation, looking forward to that as well.

All right. I think we have talked enough about hidden scroll for now. We’ve got so much handicapping to do JK that I think we should dive right in. I think we should it start East and North and work our way. Around the horn as it was, let’s start off with the grade three Withers. This is a race where I was happy to take a little bit of a shot at a horse, I think is going to be a halfway decent price, at least with our brain trust.

The six privately purchased since the last race. Now in the hands of Mark Kasey, I was thinking would get a pretty good trip in here. I think that form from the Jerome may work [08:48:00] out to be okay. That’s where I was going in a race where I had some questions about the favorites. I did write ups by the way, on all these races, I’ll post a link in the blog.

You can also find them over at the, at the website. In the UK, but you can access it from anywhere in the world. Of course. Your thoughts on the Withers. I wanted to pick lucky Lee and I think lucky Lee makes a little bit of sense. I’m a little bit worried about the speed of not that Brady, uh, drawn outside a little bit of a hunch play leading into the, to the, uh, to the super bowl there.

And then Moretti is a horse I’ve been trying to beat, you know, he’s a half the battle of midway. I tried to beat him on debut. He fi he comes back and runs well. I think that he actually could close into something here. It looks like there’s a lot of pace tax is going to be kind of over bet. He could probably win this race was really, really hard for me.

I think all of those horses that we’ve, that I’ve named can win the race, but for whatever reason, I just, my eyes kept going to admire for Dale Romans. And just like being one of those, those [08:49:00] horses that hasn’t run since November. And then he’s been training down in South Florida, but then Dale decides to put them on the, on the plane and to run them in this race.

He’s got Eric, can’t sell these. I’m a big fan of, I just feel like at a price where all of these horses are going to be bet. And we’re still trying to figure out who they are. Give me the long one. Uh, this is not a race that, that, that I would be able to throw a lot of money at. Cause I don’t have the strongest opinion, but I’m going to use admire a little bit, write a pretty good number back.

It Churchill when he broke his maiden. And I think that there’s an opportunity here for this horse to probably pick up some pieces. He’s maybe a key underneath, I’m not singling and pick fours or anything. And I would probably lean elsewhere. Cause I think he’s, he’s so long in a contest, but, uh, admires the one that I’m going to pick for fun here and a horse that I think can absolutely get a piece.

If you made me pick someone else, I would go with lucky Lee. Your old friend horologist returns at Gulf stream park on Saturday. First race we’re going to look at, there goes as race. Number nine. It’s the forward gal. [08:50:00] Three-year-old fillies seven. Furlongs on the dirt. Curious if you’re going to go back to the, uh, the horologist route in this one.

I thought this was just another case of it’s Chad Brown’s world and we’re just living in it. Feedback looked very, very strong. Eye-popping at Saratoga has had a ton of time since makes the return to the races here. I believe she’ll be ready and very tough to tack I can’t pick horologists. It’s such a mean name to name, a Philly.

Um, someone who studies the keeping of time. JK, we went over this, the last show. Well, that’s not what it sounds like. One of my favorite things to do. And you know, I’ve talked to our friend, Jack Jenkins. It’s about this as a, it’s a Duke Matisse thing that Duke taught me, just hanging out at the racetrack.

When you can find these horses and Phillies, mayors, cults, whatever that from their two year, when they’re two years old, they run numbers that are competitive to what these horses are running than the race they’re running. Now, as three-year-olds, there’s a lot of opportunity there. Feedback is one that’s going to be pretty tough based [08:51:00] on how well she ran at Saratoga.

A really long break though, which is a little bit concerning, but I’m sure Chad will have it ready to rock. She’s the most likely winner I’m going to play around with bye-bye Jay. Uh, the, the, the figure back in December at Gulf stream was pretty good. Uh, ran well that day gets Johnny Velazquez. Obviously I’m not hurting anyone’s feelings.

When I would say that’s a rider upgrade when you’re talking about a hall of Famer like Johnny, I think that horse could be interesting. I’m a little bit concerned what the price is going to be. I would assume that one will probably end up being the second choice. I don’t really want the second choice if the first choice is that much more likely.

I just give me the first choice, but I do think that she offers a little bit of value and she’ll be my pick, but by no means, am I fading feedback? I’m just looking for something a little bit more interesting and creative here. Let’s move on to race 10, the swale, the boys equivalent of the forward gal.

You could say I was gonna land on call Paul in this spot. Has the back class cut back projects. A great [08:52:00] trip. Seems like one. They tried to get to go longer. Found that didn’t really stay the, the mile back at seven. Furlongs where he succeeded last time it looks like all systems go to me. Where did you end up?

Yeah, of course. I mean, I use the horse. He’s called Paul used high crime. They both make sense based off their last races, call Paul the most likely winner, uh, on the Ford in of that seven furlongs. But we’ve talked about this in the past. How, how, how much buzz there was around topper T leading up to the breeders cup, the private purchase, the confidence of, of Mont to throw that horse in that race with those horses and the two, two turn experiences going on kind of the wet ish waster, uh, stricken tracks.

Haven’t gone so well. But, you know, maybe the cutback is what this horse is looking forward at a huge price. Uh, the rider changed the Javier once again, no knock on flow or Tyler gasoline, but you’re getting Javier Castillano hall of Famer in his own. Right. That is a rider upgrade. I think topper T could be a little bit interesting.

I don’t think you’ll get the 15 to one, but I think he [08:53:00] could come running late, especially if high crime call Paul and some of the others hookup you’ll have a whole seven furlongs to do it. And maybe the one turn is what he’s always wanted. Race 11 is the Holy bull grade two prep race for the triple crown series.

Of course, Jackie, I’ll let you go first on this one. Oh, this is the start of my, uh, of my favorite parades. So don’t get, no, I don’t want to be mean tweets here. I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. I think max is mischief is just the better of all these horses. Uh, me hosts obviously makes sense.

I think he got a little bit of a setup last time. Uh, was right where he wanted to be on that racetrack Max’s mischief is the one I think is the most likely, uh, the horse that I would pick for favorite name in the race is obviously Harvey. Did we give the recipe last time? Wasn’t there orange juice and Galliano involved me host is the pick for me.

I agree with what you said about Maximus mischief being a bit more likely. But when I look at Maximus mischief, I do see a horse who’s been able to boss races in a way that I think will [08:54:00] be trickier here. Me hosts. Yes, I suppose technically it was a setup, but he also did make a move into the hottest part of that pace that makes me give a little extra credit along with the idea that another setup may be on offer here.

Me hosts for me. In the Holy ball PTF. One of the things I struggle with when it comes to horses like me hoses, I remember not specifically, but I remember landing on me hosts in his last race based on value and not really liking the other horses in the race. When, when I, when I land on a horse like that and that horse wins, I hate betting them back because I only landed on them because of the situation they were in that day.

I prefer to Al bet a horse back and stick with a horse that I loved on the day. No matter what the circumstance was, no matter what the price was. And that’s kind of how I feel about meals, which is kind of holding me back a little bit. Fair enough. Um, we’ll see what plays out down in [08:55:00] South Florida on Saturday, speaking of Saturday, and speaking of the track, we’re about to talk about Santa Anita telephones.

What you’re doing this weekend. My man. Yes. Yes, I am. I’m going to do TQ show, which is, which is the first honor, anytime TQ, as you want. It’s a lot of fun. I don’t know if you know this PTQ has moved to the XB TV studio. He’s no longer out there, uh, outside, which was a little bit sad. I thought there’s a lot of charm to being out there, but now he’s in the studio with the screens in the background and all kinds of stuff.

So I’m gonna do TQ show on Saturday before the race is covering all the Santa Anita stuff. And then, uh, it’s going to be the debut show, this new Fox sports thing Saturday at the races that they’re doing, I’ll be on with Greg Wolf and Paula Duca. And, uh, it’s a situation that I’ll be involved in for, for the rest of the year.

Uh, unless I do something to make somebody mad. And so I’m looking forward to that should be a lot of fun. And, uh, don’t you worry? I got a little, I got a little, little snazzy jacket. I’m going to hit them with it. I’m going to have to get dressed a little, I don’t have to get dressed, but I’m going to get dressed a [08:56:00] little bit here.

So, uh, Shouldn’t be fun. We will be watching. We will be taking screenshots. Memes will be made the rise from obscurity, I think is now completely. Okay. Well, I appreciate it. Thanks for talking to me for two hours. Uh, uh, about four or five years ago. Oh, you would have found your way to the big screen. And hopefully this is just the beginning.

Speaking of things we can’t really talk about at the moment. Some exciting things in the offing for the world HorsePlayers tour as well. And hopefully we will continue to be a part of the on air crew there more to come on that as we know it. So folks can tune in Fox. What time is the broadcast? So folks can set their DVRs.

It’s on Fox sports too. So Fs to make sure you set your DVR is obviously anytime they’re going to put racing on TV, you want the ratings to be good. So they’ll continue to do it. Uh, Fs two, I believe it’s at four Eastern, uh, double check on your DVR, double check your local listings or whatnot, but, uh, and [08:57:00] we’ll also tweet about it as well, but I believe it’s at four Eastern.

Uh, they’re going to cover, uh, I think the weathers that they’re going to do this stuff from Gulf stream, a little bit of Oaklawn and then also the two steaks out at, yeah, super cool. And the first steak we’re going to talk about is the Bob Lewis. We stay on the triple crown trail. And ha ha, I’m gonna cut you off in the parade of favorites with my, uh, float.

I don’t see them beating mucho Gusto to you. No, I try to get cute and beat and probable with them last time. So I’m surely not going to ignore him here. I fell in love with Joe Talimba when he wrote, I want revenge. One of my favorite first horses, when I started getting into this game, his ride last time on, uh, on, on, uh, mucho Gusto was not the sharpest.

Uh, I’ve never written the Los Alto, uh, dirt course before. But I even know that the inside is not where you want to be. And for some reason, he found himself down there for a majority of the race while facing a superior horse. He’s drawn outside this time. I think he’ll be long gone. He’s one of [08:58:00] my favorite plays of the day at a very short price, but what’s wrong with, uh, what’s wrong with signaling a little bit in some, in some multi-racial stuff.

It’s to start at a late pick five out there. Let’s move on to the sand pass. Squall race. Number nine at Santa Anita. You kick this one off JK. I mean, obviously I’ve banged on my chest about how much I like McKinsey and how good I think he is. It’s Baffert so I’m not overly concerned about the fact that they decided to skip this Pegasus with him.

I think it’s actually a smart decision that would have been, felt a little bit rushed. That ownership group, uh, with Mike peg rumors is very in it for the longterm. So I don’t see a problem with Baffert saying, Hey, look, let’s win the next one. So I think what happened with this horse? So they’re going to just take their time.

You know, and just kind of ease him into the season, have some fun with him this summer, or maybe even Dubai. I think McKinsey should be tough. I want to see some workout report feedback on him. Dabs, Thur, and battle of midway. Just kind of seem like the same horse. Uh, at least they’ve been right there with each other in their last [08:59:00] couple races with each other.

I’m going to lean McKinsey here. And let the other two beat me, just cause I think he’s that talented. And if you’re playing multi race bets and you use more than one in here, you’re probably going to end up upside down at the end of the day with your ticket, whether you cash or not. I think McKinsey is just too talented, but I want to double-check what’s going on with him?

I think that’s smart. I don’t really have anything to add. Checking the workout report. I would not have a problem leaning on McKinsey if the signs are good and I agree for various reasons, it might’ve made sense to skip the Pegasus and take this easier test. Let there be a B minus in the workout report and I will go in a different, and you’re most likely other direction.

If you want to hit that note. I don’t know, like Powerball or something. I don’t love the race. Right. I just don’t, I think dumpster and battle of midway. If someone can tell you that they can separate the, maybe at a mile of 16 to get separated, but a mile and an eighth, I feel like it kind of is good for both of them.

I really, I mean, I’ll, I’ll lie, but I don’t really have an opinion there. It’s tough [09:00:00] to me. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a single McKinsey. Or single someone else or skip the race. If you use more than one in this race, you’re upside down on value. Interesting. You wanted to make a point about how your opinion of evolves from the time we record our show to the day itself.

I don’t know, had someone criticized you about this or is it just something that you wanted to get off your chest? Not that he was already sending it to me about it. I’ve seen other people do it to other people where they like, you know, they handicap it, pick a horse and then they do something different on the day.

You know, it it’s, it’s hard to handicap that far in advance. Okay. One, I don’t know what the is going to be like. I mean, they canceled all the turf races for Saturday. So obviously the racetrack is going to be different than in my brain when I’m picturing it as. Um, also biases begin to develop throughout the day.

And the handicapping process is one in which you, you get new information as you go along. You know, I, I don’t want to run into, uh, my buddy Ryan Exline who owns giant expectations. And he tells me that the horse is doing unbelievable and he’s gonna run the best [09:01:00] race of his life. Suddenly giant expectations becomes, uh, a little bit more of a use with that inside information from the barn.

The other thing is, you know, just like in anything in life, you look at it long enough, your brain starts to tell a different story. So I don’t want people to think I’m like misleading on Friday. I do something different on Saturday. I mean, but, uh, so I just wanted to throw that disclaimer out there. So I don’t have to smack anybody out of this.

I’ll throw in that Ryan X line, he’s the man behind Casa Adria ales. Out there. I think in Santa Barbara, I actually haven’t had a chance to visit yet, but I’m planning on going. It’s supposed to be very good stuff. And he and I have chatted beer and he’s got a good palette. It has given me some good steers.

So I’m imagining his stuff is pretty good too. I guess the larger point there, JK, we’re not misleading you at all, ever on the show. We are telling you what we think based on the information that we have. If new information comes to light, if the prices are totally crazy, If there’s a bias, if there’s information, [09:02:00] we may change what we’re doing, it’s nothing personal where that’s just how it goes.

And for you, who’s going to be giving an opinion here and then giving an opinion on TV. I think this is why this came up. You might say something different on TV by that time, then you’ve said here, and you want it to sort of clear the air about why that is. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And especially with the workout reports in California, they don’t come out to the night before.

I think the DRF one comes out a little bit early. Um, but I’ve kind of already expressed that like my, my, my main California workout report is Andy Harrington’s national turf. That one comes out like the night before at 9:00 PM. So like, if you’re on the East or West, you know, if you’re on the East coast, so it’s like, I need to see that first, like that’s my biggest adjustment.

Maybe, maybe someday we will have a way to offer real time handicapping information. This would be a down the line thing, but as our blog continues to grow as this new business that is in the money, media continues to grow. Maybe something like [09:03:00] that could come to light. Service through something like Patrion may be where if you join the sort of insiders club, you get special missives and a one turn podcast t-shirts and all that exciting stuff where we’re working on some really fun stuff.

We just have too many balls in the air at the moment trying to focus. And right now the focus is this show. And I think you’re going to really like the rest of it. We’ve got two segments coming up first. We’re going to bring in Preston Sims. The winner of the Pegasus contest. Another of these young guns, young by racing standards, your age, JK 36 years old showing once again.

And I’ll ask him this question later, but I’ll hit you with it for now. Why do we see the under 40 horse players? So, so good. So much success from the younger players in the live bank contests, as opposed to the mythical contest. I think demographically we’ve [09:04:00] seen the difference between, say the final table at the NHC and the final table at the world HorsePlayers tour.

Why is it that you young guys do so well? I think we’re drawn to it. Um, based on just kind of like, you know, the, the Mo you know, I don’t want to say the millennial out you’ve word is so overused, but you are millennials. It’s not inaccurate. The information age in which we come from and the, the instant gratification that we come from and the, and the go hard or go home that we come from.

I just think that that works a little bit better in that play, but however, you know, the, the, the older guard. Who who made this a thing for us who introduced this to us that were kind of the leaders in getting this done? The Paul Sherman’s, the Palma, TCIs the Dave  the, the, uh, the print. Some, the, these guys that came before, I probably left someone out, but I love you that the crystal army that came before us, they kind of laid it out for us.

And this is just where we gravitated towards. And a lot of those guys [09:05:00] gravitate towards. To and, and so it’s almost like the, the, the mythical contests have become a means to an end outside of the NHC it’s at stand alone and, and carries its big, uh, big sword on its own interesting stuff. Okay. So we’ve got Preston then at the end of the show, we’re going to have a visit.

I can’t wait for this one. Scott Grambling from DRF sports form, the managing editor there. We used to do that other show on the old feed. We brought him back. That’s going to be great too. Let’s segue to Preston now. And now I’d like to welcome to the, in the money players podcast, the winner from last weekend’s Pegasus world cup betting championship, Preston Sims.

How are you? My friend. I’m doing well, thank you so much for having me on. I got to start at the beginning here. How did you get involved in horse racing and contests in the beginning? Well, horse racing in general, uh, about seven years old and I [09:06:00] went to Remington park, which is my home track, uh, with my dad and just kind of got hooked, hooked on it that way.

Um, as far as tournament goes, uh, my, my current. Boss is a big horse flair and we’re we’re close. Um, and he kinda got me introduced into the tournament and I’ve played in, uh, I think five, four or five, but I’m playing a lot of them, but I’ve been, I’ve just recently got involved in it, hit the ground running.

Let’s talk a little bit more background. How old are you now? And you mentioned your boss. What field are you in? Uh, I’m 36 and I am in sales, in their oil and gas, um, service sales. You’re an Oklahoma person clearly with the oil and gas. And you mentioned Remington. Do you still live in Oklahoma? Are you in OKC or where, where are you?

Yeah, I live right in downtown Oklahoma city. Um, I’ve been here pretty much my whole life minus a couple of just short stints, uh, outside of, of the [09:07:00] state. But most of, most of my life I’ve been in Oklahoma city. Very cool. That’s amazing to have such success in such short order when entering the tournament world, where did your tournament situation begin?

Were you playing online? Did you start with live events? Give us a little bit more on that. Yeah. Um, a few small, just online, just, just the picking trays. I did a few of those just to, just to mess around. And then my first real live money term, it was the Del Mar I did the Del Mar one, uh, this year. And, um, it w what I saw on that one was the guy who wanted, had 7,000 going into the last race.

But it all went on one horse and one the whole thing. So I was okay, well then the year before, and at Pegasus, I wasn’t playing in the tournament, but I was there and I saw Eddie old sec go all in the last race and win it. So I thought maybe there’s something to that angle. So that’s, that’s really kind of, I wanted to have, [09:08:00] make sure I had some or, or a good bankroll going into the last race.

I didn’t have quite the bankroll I wanted, but that was my goal. Going into this let’s recap a little bit. What happened to you this year? It sounds like your strategy obviously was to wait until the end preserve enough. Bankroll. Did you have many peaks and valleys on the first day and into the second day, or were you pretty much betting minimums and just trying to get to the last, with a chance to survive.

The first day, I didn’t do anything crazy at all. I, my goal was to have 12,000 or more going into Saturday and I hit the last double of the day. I rad was on the sixth horse and I hit it and I, it got me to 12 six. And so I felt pretty good about where I was at it after day one. I think I was somewhere in the top 40, so I was like, okay, I got, I’ve got a decent, I’ve got an okay bank road.

So at least make a few. Decent place tomorrow and try to have somewhere in the 20 20,000 range is whatever my goal was going [09:09:00] into the lab, what I wanted to be going into the last week. And how does it play out in real time? In real time, I had 5,800 going into the last race. So not, not exactly what I wanted, but I got a couple keys that I thought had a shot to win.

I’m a big daily double player. I love the doubles. Um, and that was, and I, I had keyed fire key, pretty big thinking, stretching out from the six for a long would, would come running and he did, but just ran third. And then I, uh, I haven’t made a big, a big double play with Yoshida and who, you know, ran, ran fourth.

How would it have been different thinking about it objectively? Had you gone into the last race with the bank role you were hoping for, as opposed to the bank role that you went in there with, how would you have played? It actually might actually might have backfired on me because when I, I had to make such a per site.

Play cause I was like, well, if I’m going to try to move up the leaderboard, that’s the goal. I can’t [09:10:00] play Sean jock because that’s not going to pay enough. And you’re going to be a ton of people probably would have huge executives with that. So I think I might’ve, I think I would have still played a big, the big try like I did, and I probably would’ve played a large exact, so I don’t know if it, I don’t know if I would have spread more and still hit the same amount or if it worked in my favor to be like, okay, take, take your exact play.

And if you line it up, right, you’re going to get rewarded. And if you obviously don’t, then you’re going to, you’re going to lose your 5,800 and go home. So I don’t know if it would have, I don’t know if it will pan out differently or not. Let’s talk about the bet you actually made for the folks that have not heard the story already, whether via social media or some of the stuff that’s been written, talk us through your approach to that final wager in terms of both the handicapping side and the betting strategy side, if you would going into the race, I knew.

That I, that I liked city of light and obviously I thought accelerate would probably run well, I knew city of live [09:11:00] would probably be my on top and I love seeking the soul as a, as a horse. They could hit the board. I thought, okay. Celebrate was such a peak in peak performance, going into the breeders cup, ran a great race, honest, honest feet, favoring track, still close.

Got there. Uh, then I thought. Missed a little bit of training. I thought, okay, I’m going to go, I’m going to flip it. I’m going to go see a light on top and I’m going to play seeking the soul was my main key running second high. I thought about playing 20, $2,800 straight, exactly three, five with before, but then I thought, well, I think the tribe’s going to have more value.

So then I just like, okay, I’m going to play city blight on top with the four I’m going to throw in bravado who likes the wet. I’m going to throw in audible, who I feel likes the wet. So you could come, come from off the pace. And then I threw in the 12 because Jose is my guy and I can’t leave Jose out on the lead in anything.

So I threw Jose on a 12 fourth and then put accelerate third. Okay. And, and as it [09:12:00] turned out, you ended up hitting, what was it? A $1,400 try? Not too bad. Is it, let’s talk a little bit more about seeking the soul. What was it on his form that made you think he had a chance to run second at that big number?

I just thought and maybe I’m way off, but I thought going into the race that I was like, I love the fact that Johnny V was back on it. And I just thought, I don’t know if this, if these connections that they think they can win it or not, but I think they can think they can run second or third and catch a night’s paycheck.

So I thought not gonna, not going to rush out of the gate and to sit a good trip, make one run, probably try to pick up some pieces, maybe run second. And then. Lightning strikes and the pace falls apart. Maybe, maybe when it, but I thought more likely would run second or third. So that’s, that was, that was my, and I thought the buyers figured, so that was my thinking on seeking the soul.

It makes perfect sense. In my mind’s eye, looking at the race, I was convinced that [09:13:00] Gunawirra. Was going to get the exact trip that, uh, that seeking the soul got, as it turned out, he ended up being closer. How did you look at gunna Veritas? It seems like you left him out completely. What was your logic in doing that?

I’ve, I’ve watched, Gunawirra run quite a few times and it seems like a lot of the time, so far back and doesn’t pick up enough pieces, at least in some of the lesser races. And I just thought ran such a great race at breeders’ cup that maybe there’s a. Subpar effort coming. And, and once I started doing the math on what I thought I wanted to back, so it was like, I’m going to pick four horses and I’m just going to roll with those four.

And if I get beat, I get beat. I get it. I mean, whatever you think of the bounce theory, the idea of regression to the mean in terms especially of the market after a horse runs so big. It makes sense to maybe take a little bit of a contrarian view against a horse like that, who typically is such a big price [09:14:00] once he’s going off at close to single digit odds, as opposed to the one that you landed on seeking the soul at such large odds, I’m definitely picking up what you’re laying down.

As far as that goes. I’m very curious, uh, how you felt during the race, what was going through your head as the field turned for home? Did you have any idea what was in store? I wanted to really take it in, I mean, I don’t, I don’t go to Gulf stream often. It was my second trip. So I was like, my grandma, my whole crew was upstairs in the, in the, um, Tournament room.

And I was like, I’m going to the rail. I’m going to get poured down rain on I’m going to watch it live because I was like, I’m going to take it in. So I went to the rail, I was standing there and I, and I’m, I’m watching as the race gets ready to start, accelerate does not want to go in the gate. And even Joel, even taps a couple of pushes forward.

I’m like, I don’t know about the race to get this horse to getting ready to run. So I was like, this may. Work against you because you may not hit the [09:15:00] board. So they go in the gate, obviously Jose, they break, Jose goes straight to the lead, which is what I thought. And then city of light was in the perfect spot.

So I see. That’s what I see when, when they, as soon as they break and obviously watching them come around, down the stretch, I thought it was like, they’re going to run one, two, you know, that’s the way it looked. And then I see. The full horse cone up the rail and I’m thinking, wow, this is how I picture it in my mind.

I’m like, if the fork and get by the five I’m going to hit, this is going to be pretty good. Sure enough. It comes up, the rail gets it and I’m like, wow, I don’t have no idea what that’s going to pay. Like I know it’s going to be good, but I have no idea what it’s going to pay. So you had no idea at that point, you’re just thinking, Hey, I’m going to get something here, but I don’t know what I’m going to get.

I mean, if somebody had offered you a, made an offer for your, your stake at that point, I mean, what would you have been happy with and then what did you end up with? I thought, I thought it would take somewhere around 80 to win the tournament. Maybe that was, that was the thought. But then I thought, well, [09:16:00] some of these guys in the 20, the 20 to 25 range people made no, no place like at all.

Am I like looking at the board? So I’m thinking there’s people make with some serious ammo that if they hit something, I mean, there’s no telling what the final could be. Uh, so I thought I might get back about. 85 to 90 in that range. I thought that’s probably what I might get back here. That’s when I turned around, walking back through the masses, trying to get back to the room and it wasn’t until I finally stopped at a machine and I swipe my card and hit check balance.

And I was like, okay, well I paid a lot better. What was the number on the card at that 0.1 57? Because I had had a hundred dollars. I had. 58 5,900 left, right. Or close to it. And I bet the try and then I bet a hundred dollars straight. Exactly. Three four. And then I had a backup, double carried over ending with city of lie.

That was $200 double from the race before. So [09:17:00] one 57 was what I had on my machine too bad. At that point. Did you think you probably had it? I thought I was pretty good chance. Um, and I’d heard some people were like, Oh, that’s you, you hit that. Like, I think you’ll win it. Um, and then, but I did hear somebody say, Oh, somebody had a big exact, uh, it’s going to be around the same area.

And I was like, okay, well I guess so. Was that David rink who ended up second, who had the big, he also, uh, was right there in terms of crushing the result in the last race, but D didn’t quite get to you. What did you get for your trouble? I got, um, a, I got seven one 20 for the, for the wind, from the tournament and then a, uh, Bonus.

I didn’t even know existed was $50,000 bonus for playing on track. So, because I walked up, I said, why is the check so large? And they’re like, Oh yeah, you got a $50,000 bonus. I said, well, I don’t know. I can’t really argue with that. Well, the 50,000 makes sense. I mean, having looked at these things from a world [09:18:00] HorsePlayers tourists, Perspective.

Anything you can do to incentivize folks to play on track when there’s an online option, it does make sense to offer that extra money just because those dollars bet on track the so-called golden dollars, the host does so much better from. So the idea was to give people a reason to play from Gulf stream.

And as it turned out, the top three were all playing from Gulf stream. So in that sense it worked, but it is. Notable and funny that a guy from Oklahoma traveled all the way to Florida and didn’t even seem to know him. Yeah, I did. And I sit around and read the fine print. Cause I didn’t know, work to your advantage for sure.

In terms of your gambling success, does this rate as a number one with a bullet, this ranks as number one, I’ve had some, I’ve had some, uh, Don in. On tickets with some pretty good I’m pretty good rainbow. Like I said, my, my boss is a pretty, pretty big fire at guy. He got fifth last year in the Pegasus, uh, my Collin, [09:19:00] but he he’s a, we fit some pretty good rainbows and then Derby actually had a really good Derby.

Um, I ended up catching a $600 straight, exact, uh, justified, good magic and $110 trifle. The Derby was good for me. It wasn’t, it wasn’t comparable, but it wasn’t good for me. Not too bad. You mentioned the rainbows. Do you guys focus on those mandatory payout days or are you seeing some equity in it that escapes me to be playing it day in, day out?

No, we, we played a lot of day in, day out last year. This year we toned it down. Um, more so mandatory days or, uh, or big carry over days for the most part. Yeah, we didn’t. Too much during the year when it comes to your form study, you’re handicapping. What tools do you use? I am. I’m a huge race free play. I watch, uh, lots of, lots of race replays to try to find, um, you know, a bad trip or, or just the jockey.

Not, not really, I, haven’t not asking the horse for too much or, or [09:20:00] some sort of something I can pick out that I, that I think I want to focus on it and look for it. Chance for, um, a better race. And then I read the racing form. I, I, I got caught into looking at the computer stuff for a little while there year or so, but I didn’t have the success I wanted with it.

So I, I pretty much focused just daily racing form and replay. Interesting and racing form wise, you’re looking at formulator or you’re looking at printed. I mean, I would surprise me if a 36 year old was enough of a dinosaur to just use the daily racing form and a pen. I guess that’s what I’m asking. No, no, I’m a, I’m a digital, uh, DRF digital paper guy.

Gotcha. Oh, that’s interesting. But not formulator, still the classic PPS and digital, and then looking at replays off of there, and then you’re making notes, or do you have the kind of mind where you can keep this stuff in your head? I’m pretty much in my head. Yeah. I’m a pretty photographic memory person.

So I’d, I’d be most of that there and I’ll write some stuff down, but for the most part, it’s, it’s mainly impulse memory in terms of bedding strategy. How do you [09:21:00] approach that? I, are you fairly, do you, are you cookie cutter? Do you have certain moves that you try to make in different races or do you vary it depending on the situation?

I vary depending on the situation most I liked, I liked the big doubles and I, and I play lots of pick five. I have a big pick five guy just looked at that. Like I liked the, um, the value in it. I’m more. So I feel like I like to pick five. I love the West coast track, but I liked to take five at gold stream and Caitlin with the four or five payouts, because you know, you can, you can miss the big one, but still get a pretty decent percentage of your bet back.

With the four or five. So as far as strategy goes, I just kind of look for value. And if it’s, I feel like the value is an exact, a trifecta type of race, and I just have a feel for it, then I’ll play it. Um, but a lot of daily doubles is what is my main focus. What is next for you in terms of tournaments?

Will you be at the NHC next weekend? I will. They actually gave me the option to go to this year or next [09:22:00] year. So I said, might as well roll with this year, keep it fresh out of mine. So I will be there. And, uh, I’m leaving next Thursday and I will be there, uh, till Monday. That’s great. I will be doing radio with Steve Beck as part of the, at the races USA, Steve coverage.

I hope when you have a little stretch where you don’t have that much going on. I hope you come by and talk to us some more because it’s great to have this, uh, young blood such as yourself in the game. Let me ask you this. I’ve been asking this question all around. We’ve seen in the live bankroll tournaments.

Much more of a youth movement than you see in the mythical money tournaments. We’ve had some youthful players at the final table at the NHC, for example, but I would guess that the median age of the final table at the NHC was 15 to 20 years older than the median age of the final table. Say at [09:23:00] the world HorsePlayers tour that I was involved in.

Why are younger players, players such as yourself? Under 40 doing so much better, making so much more of an impact in these live bankroll turns, I would say as maybe access to information as far as, as the further back replays, maybe. And that’s what my guess would be. I don’t, I don’t know. I mean, heard hard question.

I apologize for it. Yeah. I apologize for the question. I know it’s a hard one. I lied. I like, I I’m around a much older crowd. I mean, I was the youngest guy in my group by, you know, 15 years. But I think, because I think a lot of the older guys stick to the, you know, the guy I know does VCR, race rates replace from Oakland every week.

And I’m like, Hey man, you know, there’s a computer. You can actually click. BCR. What is this? 1982. I mean, come on and he pays $5 a tape and he’s got a VCR and he just got mailed the team every, every, every week is crazy. And I’m like, so maybe there’s a lot of that out there. And so it just takes [09:24:00] so much time and they don’t see as many as much of the information, but that’s, I don’t know.

That’s my guess. That’s hilarious. I love it. Well, thank you so much. For your time today, can’t wait to see what happens at the NAC. We’ve seen people parlay one tournament, victory into another. Maybe you’ll be next on the list, Preston, but whatever happens, we look forward to following you in the future and seeing what happens next.

And now I’d like to welcome back to my airwaves for his first appearance on the, in the money players podcast. Scott Gramling Scott, how are you? I’m doing great, Pete, great to be back. Great to be talking with both of you guys. It’s a time of year super bowl, baby Scott of course, is the managing editor of the DRF sports forum.

You can also find his work in sports illustrated in the new edition or Wherever you go to find it. Scott is one of the people I always want to read [09:25:00] when it comes to big games like this thought it would be fun to have him come on here. And button up the old show, which we never really got to have a closing episode of not officially.

We had our closing episode, we just didn’t know it was the closing episode. It was one of those things. So, so let’s, let’s choose our own end point for that and start a new relationship where hopefully we can have Scott on here a few times to talk about whatever is relevant. In the world of sports betting, especially his speciality, the NFL.

So J K and Scott, I understand that neither of you kept score in the bowl challenge. We did the last time we were all on the air together. Is that correct? That is correct. That is correct. I, I know my big game. I know Scott had his big game, but outside of that, I didn’t really look any deeper. So it’s probably going to be like that great TV show on HBO luck, where everyone was getting really into it.

And then you just had to pretend you knew what the ending was and just make, make it up in your own mind. [09:26:00] Unless I’ll say this. If there’s one of the podcast fans out there who wants to do us a major solid, you’d have to go back into that old feed to find the episode, but it’ll be the last episode of, and I’m going to say these letters with, with intention now with the last episode of the DRF sports forum.

Listen through check the spreads, see who won. You’ll we’ll come up with some special prize. I will either find a book lying around from here. Perhaps a parent will make you a coffee mug in her new pottery class. I don’t know. We’ll do something special for the listener who comes through and goes ahead and lets us know who won the challenge on the old show.

Look, I’ll concede that I lost. If Scott can please help me figure out. Who I need to bet on Marv has been blowing me up. He wants to know who, who I’m going to take in the super bowl. And I, I’m not kidding. I seriously don’t have a clue. I’m actually letting the fact that my son is rooting for a team. [09:27:00] Um, be the reason that like I might make that action play because this is a tough, tough game to bet.

I’m hoping Scott will open up my eyes a little bit here. Well, Scott, let me ask it this way. If you had one bet to make on the super bowl, what would it be? I would look to the props, to be honest with you. And the one I would take is neither team to score in the first six and a half minutes of the game at plus one 30.

I think traditionally you see in Superbowls a feeling out period early in the game in the eight Tom Brady Superbowls. In the first six and a half minutes of those games, there has been a score only once that score was six minutes and eight seconds into. Super bowl 46. And you, what the score was? It was a safety, it was a call on Tom Brady, intentional grounding when he threw the ball 45 yards down the middle of the field, and there was no receiver there.

[09:28:00] And the giants got two points for that six minutes, eight seconds into super bowl, 46, the other seven Superbowls. First six and a half minutes. There has been no scoring the other seven, Tom Brady Superbowls. And in fact there was no scoring in the first quarter for the Patriots. Until last year, super bowl.

When they got a field goal with about, I think it was four 17 left in the first quarter, uh, prior to that, prior to all the Superbowls that Tom Brady had been in. And I always catch myself when I’m saying H it doesn’t sound right, but it is right. He has played in eight super bowls and this is a ninth. So the first seven that he played, the Patriots did not score in the first quarter.

Last year they scored. In the first quarter, they got a field goal, but it was after the six and a half minute Mark. So that’s my favorite problem. And you also get the extra juice, plus one 30. If you look at what the Patriots have done in these playoffs, they [09:29:00] actually won the coin, flip against the chargers, opted to take the ball, which is a bit unorthodox for them.

They usually defer to the second half they took the ball and they had that long drive. Uh, against the chiefs, the chiefs won the toss and deferred. So the patrons got the ball first and they had another long drive that lasted beyond six and a half minute Mark. Now I’m not saying those exact things are gonna happen again, but I think it’s a combination of a feeling out period early in games, and especially in Superbowls with trying to control the clock.

The last thing that these teams want is. To get the ball first and a three and hour, that creates as much momentum for the other team. I believe as a score does. And JK, I’d love to get your thoughts on that. Uh, you know, having been on the sidelines and w how a three, and now after you’ve gained planned all week, and in this case for two weeks, uh, to get the ball and then go three and out what kind of effect that has on the [09:30:00] team psyche.

Well, I think to your point, you know, I think it’s, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s the, the Patriots do something that can be very frustrating if you bet on them. One is they, they stick to for the run very early in the game, they do. They’re, they’re one of the teams that hardly ever abandoned the run. Um, I think it’s one of Bella checks.

Obviously the, the coordinators offensive coordinators, you have understands how important that is to him. And, and they, they stick to the run. So that kind of, that kind of plays to your, to your idea of why they’re kind of feeling each other out early. The other thing they do on defense, which can be very frustrating when you bet on them as well is a lot of Ben don’t break and, you know, they’ll let you, they’ll let you move the football.

They’ll let you kick field goals. They’re just not going to let you chunk planned. Um, they’re, they’re going to keep you on the field and they’re gonna make you earn every little piece of it. So I think that kind of plays to that as an offensive coordinator. Every coordinator scripts their first seven, sometimes their first 14.

You don’t want to experience failure in that first three, you’ve had two weeks to prepare for the biggest game of your [09:31:00] life. And for you to fall flat on your face can be very discouraging for the offense and the defense. So I see exactly where you’re coming from there. Interesting. So that, that’s my favorite one P I really think there’s good value in that a plus one 30.

And when you look at the recent history of the Patriots, uh, not just in these playoffs, but in the Superbowls. I like that one. That’s very interesting. JK, you mentioned Austin has a route, which way is his fan heart leaning? He’s he’s uh, he’s, he’s leading Tom Brady or a Tom Brady t-shirt Jersey to school.

So he’s, uh, he’s bred. He said that who’s the best we’re back in the NFL. And I said, ah, or I were to ever play. And I, I, he kind of, he forced me to answer the question. I was like, uh, And so he’s like, Oh, can I get one of those shirts? I was like, you sure can. So, um, Jayda, you’re raising your kids, right? I’m very proud of the Patriots.

Yes. Meanwhile, I’m looking over in my closet right now, down here at the bunker and eyeing my Lawrence Taylor Jersey, which I actually fit in again, which is [09:32:00] pretty amazing. That will be my attire on super bowl. Sunday. Let’s talk about the game itself. JK. It seems to have no opinion, Scott, how do you see it playing out on the field?

I do like the Patriots in this one. And, uh, I, yeah. I think, look in every game and especially the super bowl, because it’s the only game you have the handicap over a two week period. It really gives you ample time to try and make a case on both sides. And I think one of the cases. That you might want to make for the Rams.

If you’re looking that way is the statistical edges that they have in a number of categories. Uh, the average more points per game than the Patriots. Uh, and this is from the start of the 2018 regular season, including the two playoff games. So in 18 games, sample size, uh, Rams are averaging more points per game.

They’ve converted on a higher percentage of third down conversions. I know that’s something that a JK looks at, and I [09:33:00] think it’s a very valuable a statistical tool as well. They have a higher scoring margin and they have a higher turnover differential. So those four key categories, which are categories that I do look at and weigh a bit more heavily than a lot of other categories.

So we’re talking about authentic output. You’re talking about scoring margin. Third down conversion percentage and turnover, differential, all in the favor of the Rams. Now I’m just going to go a point by point here for teams that average more points per game in the last 18 Superbowls for 13 and one against the spread for teams that.

Convert a higher third down percentage. Last 18 Superbowls, six 11, and one against the spread teams with the higher scoring margin, going into the Superbowl five and 10 against the spread in the past 15 Superbowls and the team with the better turnover differential. Five and 10 against the spread over the past 15 [09:34:00] super balls.

So it’s interesting how, when you look at, during the regular season, these are metrics that I weigh heavily enough to a degree where if I’m getting. Good number on the side of the team that has the edge in all of these categories. I will strongly consider going that way. I won’t go that way automatically.

There’s other things to factor in, but those are some key statistics and, you know, it’s something I’ve been trying tracking really for the last seven or eight years. Yeah. In super bowls. And you’re trying to get a handle on why our Superbowl’s different and Jake, I’d love to get your thoughts on what I’m about to say here.

I think there’s an element of the team that has been doing things let’s say, uh, more correctly, the team that has done things that’s resulted in all of these stronger statistics, tend to play it a bit more [09:35:00] similar to how they did. During the regular season and in the two playoff games and are therefore easier to game plan for the team that is on the short side of these and other statistical categories, kind of look at the opponent and say, okay, we’ve got to do some things differently here in order to overcome.

What our shortcomings are statistically and might roll out some different defensive game plans, maybe some authentic wrinkles. That’s a little bit of what I’ve concluded in going back. And I have watched really the majority of the last 10 Superbowls over the past, uh, 10 days. Uh, you can see what. What kind of life I have and, uh, you know, just trying to get a handle on why that is pretty significant numbers there.

When you’re talking about the team, the average is more points per game, you know, for 13 and one against the spread in the last 18 Superbowls, uh, you can’t help, but want to look into that deeper. It it’s a large [09:36:00] enough sample size, you know, I think that’s part of the reason. You know, again, trying to look at an angle to take the Rams and then it sort of gets turned upside down and back toward the Patriots.

But, uh, J K do you think there’s any validity to what I’m saying in that regard of looking at the team strengths sort of admitting where they’re stronger and then doing things that maybe that team hasn’t seen on tape and catching them a little off guard? Yeah, I completely agree. And I think the other important part to keep in mind to that, to your point is that, is that these teams.

They change a lot throughout the year. The Patriots typically have these kind of slow starts because it’s all about the long-term process for them. That’s one of the reasons that Belicheck is so good and to relate it to our racing fans, you know, he’s like Shogun Belmont. He doesn’t care if he wins the first race doesn’t care.

If he wants the second one or the third one. He wants to win the grade one. And that’s how Bella, Chad looks at things. A lot of these other coaches are on the hot seat. They’re worried about their performance. We get in a week out. They’re worried [09:37:00] about Monday morning quarterbacks on the radio, the sports radio in their, in their town, their owners looking to fire them.

Belicheck doesn’t care about that. He’ll sit and Gronk. He’ll sit Edelman. He’ll, he’ll run the football. He’ll he’ll bend, not break on defense. He’ll do whatever it takes to just get to the final game. And then he turns it on and he, and he really cranks the screws. So I think that the thing about the Patriots is that they’re going to do what they have to do to win the football game.

And it’s why they won so many of these and why they’ve shown up there. I think Sean McVay is an unbelievable coach. I think he’s the next up and coming great coach in this league. If he hasn’t already proven to be a good one, um, he might have a little bit of pressure on him, not so much that he’s going to be fired, but these facing this legend and, and, and there might be some more pressure to, to kind of do for, for, for the Patriots to kind of gain plan what the Rams had done.

So successfully all year, the Patriots have been up and down. They had banged up, Gronk banged up Edelman, a lot of different things, been changing throughout the year. And I think you’ll see their [09:38:00] best performance here. I don’t know exactly what side I’m going to take here because I think the Patriots will probably win, but I wouldn’t be like completely shocked if the Rams won by 21.

Uh, because they, they are so talented and all the things I’ve mentioned above, I will say this, and this is a one thing I keep coming to, and I’m trying to find the best way to that. It is that the Ram’s best player on offense and on defense is Aaron. Donald. He will be neutralized by Tom Brady, the quick game, the outside street zoned game, the screen game.

He there, you know, Tom’s not going to be back there. Five, five step dropping and letting Aaron Donald tee off on him. There’s gonna be a lot of quick game to Edelman underneath. And a lot of those things, that’s going to take Aaron Donald out of the game and neutralize one of their biggest strengths.

Right. You know, kind of like in a, you know, with a, with a, with a pace horse, you know, if you’re going to be dueling out there, it doesn’t really fit, uh, to, to what they’re good at. So that’s why I’m leaning in that direction. I just, the Rams have that feeling of this, like up and coming up. Oh, we got an there’s a new, there’s a new kid [09:39:00] in town feel to it.

And that’s the part that has me a little bit concerned. Yeah, it took a couple of things on that. I think it’s interesting a buddy and I were talking about the old, uh, Pat Riley philosophy right. Of these teams that, uh, have to get up toward the top of the mountain, get knocked down before they can really get over over that top.

And I wonder if that’s, what’s going to turn out to be the fact that the Ram you’re right about the Patriots having been up and down this season. But right now they have been up and I looked back at how they performed in bowls based on where they’re at in a certain scenes. It’s so a lot of these roles they’ve gone into not playing their best football.

It’s almost as if they had peaked in late November, early December, and then started to slide back. So. The past three Patriots, Superbowl losses, which were in February 18, 12 and Oh eight. Those Superbowls, those losses were proceeded by scoring outputs in the AFC championship [09:40:00] game of 24, 23, 21 points. Now in the past two super bowl victories that was over Atlanta two years ago.

And Seattle four years ago, the Patriots came into those having scored 70 points over the two. 2017, January playoff games, 80 points over the two, January, 2015 playoff games. They come into this one having scored 78 points over the two January playoff games. I think there’s something too. And. It’s partly a feel of this Patriots team is playing better at this point in the season than it had in recent seasons.

Going into that Eagle super bowl. Remember they were kind of very fortunate to get out of that AFC title game, having beaten the Jaguars and that Jaguars team. Was the, I mean, there were good enough to make it the AFC title game, but that’s not going down was one of the all-time great teams. I mean, that’s Blake, [09:41:00] Bortles at quarterback and the Jags almost pulled that game out.

The Patriots were not playing good football going into that super bowl against the Eagles. And that’s kind of the way it ended up. But it ended up playing out. I think when you look at some of you start to boil down to the specifics, what do they have this year that they didn’t have in past years? One thing is health.

Gronkowski is healthy. Edelman is healthy. Edelman was not, he did not play in the Eagles super bowl. People tend to forget about that. He was out for the year with the ACL injury. Gronk was not playing when the Patriots lost, uh, to the Broncos three years ago in the AFC title game, when the Broncos went on to beat the Panthers in the super bowl.

So this Patriots team over the past several weeks has shown, uh, that it is playing extremely well in office and playing their best offensive football of the season, going into the super bowl, which is another thing that makes me feel, uh, [09:42:00] more confident. In this year’s Patriots, then I may have been in past years.

Great stuff, guys. I want to thank you both for your thoughts on the big game, and that’s gonna do it for this episode of the, in the money players podcast. I want to thank our guests, Preston Sims and Scott Grambling. Thanks to J K as always. And of course, thanks to all of you, the listeners. Who make the show so much fun to do hit us up on Twitter.

Talk to us through our blog, the, in the money blog, we will be back on Tuesday with a recap of all the action from the weekend until then I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. May you win all your photos?

 Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. [09:43:00] Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is show number 11. It is Tuesday, January 29th. I am once again, in the Brooklyn bunker back from a whirlwind business trip to London doing about six hours of TV a night, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Gave out a couple of winners, not as many as I would’ve liked, but had a very good time hanging out with the crew over there and got to really enjoy the Pegasus night. And best of all, I didn’t have to deal with that crazy deluge. The man I’m about to introduce was in the midst of that deluge. I don’t know what happened to him in the contest yet.

We have not spoken. Can’t wait to hear all the stories from the people’s champion, Jonathan kitchen. What’s up. My man. Well, I got to go ahead and let everybody know that, uh, someone who’s going to be joining us a little bit later is. Solely responsible for the reason that my voice sounds [09:44:00] like, uh, the, the root for a city of life took a toll on my vocal cord.

So star that you have to listen to me, sound like, I think I got an elephant sitting. Yeah. Oh my goodness. You are, you are horse. There’s no doubt about it. I’ve never had it happen. I’ve never gotten a three-day laryngitis from a horse racing route before. Do you remember, did you go with a classic? Was this a go on my son’s situation where you rooting Havi?

How did you, uh, approach this route? We were, um, it was, I was right next to the Prince of Keeneland and we were, uh, we were in a suite and they have to have a big glass windows. And I was, we were banging on the glass window cause we have a turnaround because of the, you know, the weather and stuff. We turned around to watch the very end on the screen when they were at the top of the stretch.

And, uh, it was just simply, uh, come on city, come on city, come on, city and city. He was unbelievable. What a performance. We talked about it [09:45:00] for a long time, the different tactics that went into it. I think I’ll claim victory for the way that it played out in terms of the flopping outside and stalking, and then going on with it, as opposed to the dead send you were recommending.

But it doesn’t matter. I think this horse could have employed all manner of tactics and gotten the job done. How impressed were you put, take your fan hat off, put your analyst hat on and tell me how impressed you are with city of light and. JK tip the hand on this few minutes from now, Michael McCarthy going to be joining us for his first appearance on the, in the money players podcast.

But JK, what are your thoughts on this race? I thought it was extremely impressive and you’re right. You did win that head to head. If you, if you want, you can put that in your head to head category on the trip. That was a victory by you. Um, I thought he was brilliant. Um, you know, I think he’s, he’s, uh, he’s a really special horse where, you know, you don’t see it too often where he won two grade, one’s going seven for a long time.

And then also want a grade one in the, in the world’s richest race for, uh, well, it was, you know, what I meant [09:46:00] by that changed a little bit now with the turf, but, uh, and, and won a grade, one going a mile and an eighth in that race. So, uh, really says a lot about the quality of, of city of light and, and also our, our, our, our guests, Mike McCarthy, in terms of his ability to, to, uh, show up on all these big stages with these big horses and, and, and only have a, whatever it is, 20, 30, 40 of them in training.

It is pretty amazing. Can’t wait to talk to Mike in a little bit, so many questions to deal with in the aftermath of this race. Does it take anything away from you from Excel it’s body of work? The fact that he was not able to extend his streak and get the job done today. And do you feel like it should have any bearing when you look back, will you feel better about your horse of the year vote?

Do you think I should feel worse about mine or like me. Do you feel like he really didn’t lose much here and it’s not particularly relevant? I don’t think it’s particularly relevant. I wouldn’t want to, um, I wouldn’t want to. [09:47:00] Hold this race against them, not so much for the, for the, for the, uh, because of the surface.

I just, all I’ve always thought that accelerate is probably better going longer than a mile and a quarter. I feel like as mile and an eighth race as he was, he was kind of helped by the racetrack and, and, uh, and facing all horse, like city of light, who I thought was kind of sitting on a monster race. I, you know, I, I don’t take anything away from accelerating what he did throughout his, uh, 2018, you know, year and his career as a whole.

Uh, both of those horses obviously should be very proud. And, um, uh, when it comes to breeding, I, I don’t, I don’t know a ton about it, but, uh, Ran into, uh, to a lot of people this weekend. And a lot of people are excited about the horses opportunity, uh, when he goes to start, I believe he’s already full for next year.

Accelerate is going to be an interesting one to watch. As far as that goes, I want to pause for a minute. We talked about the tactics in terms of our discussion before the race, but I really thought this was an amazing job by Javier. Getting him out, getting him to [09:48:00] relax at just the right time saying, go at the right time.

Your thoughts on a little more on Javier performance, specifically, given all the questions that came up with the weather and the way that the track was playing. I thought it was great. I mean, I thought that, you know, I didn’t think it’s just not how Chad horses are written. I understand that pattern recognition was a, is a horse that’s forward and he was stretching out, but I didn’t see.

Uh, I didn’t see Jose feeling that I was going to be his best chance to clear city of light. I thought he would try to sit off of them, hope that city of light and didn’t like the, the, the slop or, or, uh, maybe, you know, city of light was over the top. Um, and so when he did that, it really gave Javier the opportunity to be able to cause he was still forward as well.

Cause steady of light broke really well to be able to just. Kind of flop right outside of city of light and to get him in the clear, and then when he was ready to go, uh, the horse kind of did the majority of the work at the quarter pole it’s, you know, he was in hand still. So it [09:49:00] was amazing though. It shaped up on paper for a second.

Like many would have thought with accelerate coming to his neck at one point. But I feel like for experience race Watchers, we’ve seen accelerated that point. Extended jockey’s hands moving up and down the neck. Meanwhile, Javier with the double handful, still the real race as it were over before it started.

Yeah. Without a doubt, it was never really in doubt. And in all honesty, that race. I don’t know what it says, and I don’t know if it’s a problem, but the three runnings of that race have all gone to the favorite and pretty impressive fashion, uh, to California. You know, obviously California Chrome didn’t show up that day, but with irrigate, a gun runner and now city of light, you know, he took a lot of money.

I know that he was actually technically, he was a second shooter. I was going to say, you’re kidding me. He went, favored over accelerated. What are you talking about? Uh, no, but he, he, they clicked for him late. They came for him late. So it was, you know, it was much closer than the morning line at indicated.

Yeah, I was following only the UK [09:50:00] batting. And my biggest case for city of light all night was you were getting the two to one, as opposed to the three to two. I figured they would both on the USA tote go lower than that. I didn’t actually see what happened in the end. I did see in the end, a one 12 buyer speed figure for city of light.

It was terrific. Very, very exciting. I think this is going to maybe end up being a form full race more years than not. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing to you. No, not at all. And I think that, that, uh, as it kind of continues to settle in, as a tradition, it’ll continue to grow and more people will, uh, will, will, will start to show up for it.

And it’s, you know, and I also think that. You know, and at some point we’re going to get that good older horse and that good younger horse. And we’re going to get that champion filly that are gonna all jump in there and it’s going to be a real race. And you know, not that it wasn’t a real one, but it’ll be a real exciting dynamic, lots of different things can happen situation. And in all [09:51:00] honesty, I think a lot of people who may or may not have bet on seeking the soul. Thought that he ran. I ran a race that, that, uh, that without getting

stopped at Johnny got stopped cold, like right outside the three eights. If he didn’t get stopped, it would have been a, it could have potentially been a closer margin of victory.

Do you think he could have won it didn’t occur to me that he could have won the race, honestly, until you were saying that trouble or no trouble. Is this a closer margin situation or do you think it really might’ve cost the w no, I don’t think he was going to win. I just think it would have been, you know, he would have been a little bit closer.

Um, uh, he, he definitely ran a winning race. Uh, it just so happened to be, uh, that city of light was in there as well. And then he ran, he ran his way, gunna Vera for me, probably to close early might’ve cost him making that, run that, seeking the soulmate instead. Certainly a nice Exacta and very relevant when it comes to talking about the, the, the contest, the Pegasus contest.

Did you have another thought to piggyback on there? Yeah, just a fun, fun story about seeking the soul. Uh, was in the, in the suite with angel [09:52:00] Cortaro, obviously Johnny Velazquez is a, uh, agent and angel was, was upset that he missed the tri they, they put it, he put it, he played a try with the Piper and they missed the tri and we’re all looking at him like, ain’t, you just ran second and like,  I think he made like 20 grand right there.

You’ll be fine. That’s great. Let’s talk about the Pegasus contest. Word of warning. The way our timing is working today between JKS travel schedule. He’s still in South Florida trying to get Mike McCarthy on which we’re going to do in a few minutes. We’re probably not going to finish our discussion of Pegasus day.

Just a warning. We will pick it up on Friday. We don’t have time to do a full show today necessarily. So I’m just going to hit on a few random things and don’t think I’m giving terribly short trip to hidden scroll or the turf if we only touch on them briefly. But right now I want to talk about the contest.

In the end, it was won by Preston Sims. Big big try. It sounded like in the last race, once [09:53:00] again, somebody who was pretty close to down to the nub, hitting the last race and getting the job done in the Pegasus. Another conversation we’re going to put a pin in, but it just, I throw it out here to you J as a future topic for discussion, it seems like this race, excuse me, this contest in particular does have the potential to.

Almost always going to be one that falls down to this last race, something to discuss in the future, if that’s a potential issue or something that needs to be addressed, or if it’s just the way it is. But I want to hear your story of the Pegasus contest and you can touch on that here, if you want to do so quickly or we’ll save it for another.

I turned quite a bit on Friday. I was, I was, I played a lot of doubles. I didn’t really love anything. I didn’t swing too hard. I just. Kind of methodically played. I think you had to make five, $800 bets. I think I made $6,000 bets. Uh, pretty much the same on both entries. Uh, woke up in the morning with about 10, five on each and made an attempt to, to go all in with, with all [09:54:00] 20 on doubles, uh, from the second to the third race, into a world of trouble.

Um, and I, uh, I used seven horses, uh, waited and waited doubles. And, um, I, you know, that the same, we’ve talked about all the time you live by the info, you die by the info. And, uh, info has been good lately. I called our buddy that has a tie with loot racing and asked if they had any, uh, any thoughts about the two horses they had in there had a horse that they just claimed and a horse that had been in the, in the, in their ownership for awhile.

And the information was they liked the outside horse much better. Um, so I did not use the, the other horse who was seven to two morning line and drifted up to nine to one, uh, the, the, the one they liked dropped the rider at the start. The one that didn’t like, uh, won the race at nine Oh one. Which horse was that?

Uh, it was like a, it was an early, it was like, uh, I dunno, they were like claimers. It was early in the day. I don’t even know the name of the horse. I couldn’t tell you. Gotcha. [09:55:00] But you don’t feel bad live by the info, die by the info. You’ve said it many times. And how do you think it would have turned out, projecting on into the future?

Do you think your fortunes might’ve gone down with copper town or do you think you could have stayed in till the end and made a showing here? If you’re looking at it objectively. Yeah, I probably would have been in trouble with copper town. However, the leaderboard didn’t start to get away. So if I would have been in contention, I might’ve found it a little bit of a over bedding, the pot to use a poker reference.

If I were to bet what I had planned on betting, I was going to go all in on copper town. Um, speaking of copper town, it’s it’s, you know, hung out with the racetrack. Last two mornings. Uh, the Prince of Caitlin was with, you know, we were at Palm beach downs and watching Todd’s army there. And then also watching one of his horses with, with George Weaver.

And a lot of the talk around was that copper town banged his head. Pretty good when he, uh, at right before the start and the, kind of the question of why they didn’t at least back them out of the gate and look at him. Um, and so, uh, I think that a [09:56:00] lot of people who thought copper town was going to run well, kind of giving him an excuse for that race where, you know, like you said, he banged his head pretty good.

You know, Mike Maloney talks about it in the book you guys worked on together. Now that can be one of those hidden trips that can really. Uh, it really caused some problems. You know, you go out and you’re a front yard, bang your head up against the wall and then go run a mile bedding with an edge. The book J K is referring to.

And that is a good story in there. And I’ll tell you what, when copper town comes back, he’s going to have two really ugly races in that PP. Having an excuse for that second one. I had said on air Hm. Might be done with hearing the stories about copper town, but that excuse might be enough to give him one more chance.

I’m sure. We’ll talk about that race. Whenever it is. Speaking of excuses, JK, do you have one for Yoshi? No, I, you know, you can’t really say it was the ground. Cause that was something that he’s always, uh, he’s, he’s performed well on it. Derby day and the turtle classic. And then also at Pimlico, um, I guess maybe he was a little bit far back.

[09:57:00] Um, he made that run in any range. I thought for a second, he was gonna, he was gonna probably be, be dangerous, but, uh, no, nothing really, nothing really to, to look for. I think maybe we’ll see him get back to the dirt. Um, I think that that was probably. Yeah, I think he, he could have been, uh, maybe second or third and the dirt race that he would’ve ran in that one, the way that it kind of set up.

Interesting point about the dirt race, for sure. I’ll be curious to hear more stories. I was really hoping we were going to get to see a queen and run from him, but maybe it’s tricky to go after that, or maybe there’s an excuse and the turf career will continue on a abated this season. Questions to answer for another day, bricks and mortar.

I made the case on the show. I can’t claim as a winner, but we did talk about how I thought the horse could run well and bricks and mortar certainly did Chad Brown showing once again that it’s his world and we just live in it. What did you think of that one? [09:58:00] You know, I really had a hard time with this race.

I, I was kind of against bricks and mortar. Uh, it’s a little bit hard to swallow even now that, that a horse who, whose previous race was in an allowance race, uh, is now showing up and running in a $7 million race in one bite. It was a prep. I mean, and look at the figure. I mean, I don’t, that just doesn’t even sound like I’m talking to you that you’d question so much a Chad Brown horse, because it ran in allowance race.

I mean, he was clearly getting it set up. I don’t get it. Yeah, well, it, it, I guess it was more the, the fashion in which he did it. It’s, it’s not like he blitz that field and he was nine to five. And, and, and it’s just a weird thing that you, you, you see that there, you know, he runs it. Yeah. Like that. And then you think he’s going to show up and running the richest turf race in North America and win by two.

Um, that, that part of it was just a little bit harder for me to, to, to, to wrap my brain around, but he’s pretty stinking good. And it turns out that, uh, I accused them of being the B team and he’s. Obviously, definitely on, on, on the 18 now. And he probably wasn’t even before [09:59:00] the race. So, um, he ran, well, I tell you that probably the most.

Disappointing, obviously as the Japanese Philly who looked like she threw it in reverse. Yeah, I got off her completely based on the ground. It was just, there was some question about the added distance, the best form wasn’t with that level of cut in the ground. And I felt like her chance kind of went out the window with the way the ground changed and even drifting on the tote pools up to nine to one, I went in a different direction, but the direction I went.

Was all Yoshida. I mean, when I was talking about how I like bricks and mortar, it was at the UK prices of six to one earlier in the week with him as short as five to two. And Yoshida as square as he was and Mott winning races on the undercard. I just went all Yoshida in that race. So I didn’t, uh, didn’t get any joy from my point of view, but I certainly understood the case for bricks and mortar.

And I don’t think you’re wrong. When you say he was the B team, there was some quote from Chad about some [10:00:00] of the other horses he might’ve considered for the spot. They had already sort of had the plans mapped out and bricks and mortar was the one who could be successfully rerouted. They announced the race so late.

So you might not have been wrong about that. And it might just be at the end of the day, JK another Testament to how powerful a force on racing and especially turf racing. Chad Brown is in the USA. Is that fair? Absolutely. I mean, like I said, I just thought he was going to be over bet. I thought, Oh, there’s there were so many reasons to kind of go against him.

And, uh, at least I had convinced myself of that I was wrong. I used them in the pick five, but I used them very sparingly as is almost like a saver. And, uh, and so, uh, the amount of money we put in to play the pick five, um, we, you know, I, I barely got most of it back, so, okay. It’s time for our special guests to appear.

We’ve got him live from the backstretch, Michael McCarthy. How are you? My friend. [10:01:00] Really good. Thank you guys for having me. Absolutely. It’s a pleasure. You’ve had a couple of days to contemplate this huge win from Saturday. You’re charged city of light, getting it done in the Pegasus world cup invitational.

How are you feeling reflecting back with a couple of days? Hindsight, it’s been a pretty hectic 72 hours, you know, a lot of travel and obviously emotions running high on Saturday night. Coming right back down to earth on Sunday morning, send them off to lane, said the travel and everything that goes in gets involved, but come back to work on Monday morning, you hit the ground running and.

See, you know, you might not find yourself in another city of light, but next first time starters, just right around the corner. So he’ll be missed, but we’ll look forward to the challenge of finding another one. There’s that great picture taken by? I think it was Zoe Mets. Must’ve been Sunday morning, uh, purporting to be the moment when you were saying goodbye to city of light, what do you think of [10:02:00] that picture?

And what’s going on in your head during it? Yeah. You know, for me, it’s a little bit different. Well, we do a lot of it is about kind of letting go, you know, horses come in, they’re there for. Three weeks, whether they’re claimed and run back and claimed by somebody else or they get to you, they need to go to the farm to be stopped on for a while.

In a case like this, is this a special deal where the horse has been part of the family for two years? Um, He’s obviously done a lot for not only my family, but everybody that works for me. So kind of seeing him a way of seeing him off is a little bit bittersweet in the case of my daughter and city of light.

He’s a big, powerful horse, but he’s very docile as Jonathan can attest to Saturday mornings. And sometimes after school she’d like to come and just kind of hang out, buy a stall, pet him, feed him carrots. So. Like any little, any little kid would, do they get attached to, you know, their idols or things like that.

In this case, it just happened to be a horse for her. And [10:03:00] I don’t think she understand the way we were talking and speaking about the horse, going to stuff. She didn’t realize that that kind of encompass the horse leaving, going to Kentucky and not coming back to San Anita with us. So she was a little, obviously a little heartbroken and.

Zoe was the right place, the right time to capture that. You mentioned that, uh, that, that, uh, I was able to kind of be able to spend a little time around city of light this week, and then also a breeders’ cup. And, and, uh, so I just want to know that one night when we went back and I held the phone light, what percentage of city of lights victory has to do with the help that I was able to provide that evening?

I think you gave him a golden Apple. I think that gold is apples. We’ll put them over the top. A horse like that, you try to spend as much time around them as you can. Obviously we go back to every night and check them. And that was one of the things that gave me, uh, a bunch of confidence going into Saturdays and we’d go back every evening to water off and check his feet, tub, and you know, nine o’clock at night, 10 [10:04:00] o’clock at night, his feed would be totally done.

And that’s always a good sign. It’s a sign of a healthy horse and a happy horse. So. Um, I’m just glad you were able there to help out. W was he bothering you Mike all week? Was he just constantly at the bar? And how do you, how do you deal with these interlopers? He was a, he was a pleasant distraction, I guess you could say.

Yeah. So I really couldn’t have done it without him. Um, no, but you know, you guys were always on the road doing contests and stuff like that. So it’s nice to see you guys from time to time. Nice to have some friends around and be able to take your mind off a Saturday afternoon. Obviously. There’s. So much that goes in, gets that goes into getting the horse ready for a race like that, to be able to kind of share it with friends is pretty special.

The only failure I can say that Michael had on Saturday was he was, he wasn’t able to get a picture with Snoop dog. Oh, you tried and failed to get getting that sweepstakes. I gave it the old college [10:05:00] try. I don’t think Snoop is a fan of the rain. He’s definitely no Prince. He would make, he wouldn’t make some very good halftime entertainment, super bowl.

That’s for sure. Prince was actually a racing fan from what I’ve heard, I’ve heard that he in some. Previous life either had wanted to be, or at least was just hugely respectful of jockeys. And I’ve heard stories about him hanging out at the track. Did you ever see any evidence of this or did you just mention him because of the rain at the super bowl?

I bet you didn’t cause the rain at the super bowl. I did not know he was a racing fan. Alls I know, really know about princess is. What I learned from Dave Chappelle, to be honest with you, we always ask folks on the show when they’re guests for the first time to talk a little bit about how they got involved in racing in your case, is this something you were born into or how did you come to it?

Right. A couple of friends, I went to high school with Michael Sherlock and Marty Jones. Both of their [10:06:00] fathers are trainers here at San Anita, Southern California. I’d see friends. Family worked on the front side and another friend Corey black went on to become a jockey. Um, so I was sort of a product of my environment would spend some time after school at the races going to watch the last couple of races palling around on the weekend and stuff like that.

As we got out of high school, I really enjoyed the, the environment, the animals and the early morning. So I took a liking to it. I really started to, you know, Enjoy more and more time around the horses themselves. Fortunate enough. It took me to a lot of places before I got to where I am today. You know, Hong Kong, Dubai, Japan, Ireland, England.

So, no, I, this is, this is I’m the only person in my family. It’s got anything to do with racing. My father is a sporting man and likes to gamble from time to time. My brother’s a surfer. [10:07:00] So, yeah, there’s no racing connection. I’m the only one. Yeah. You talk about making a wager on a sporting event, obviously betting so important to driving the game of horse racing.

What is your attitude as a horseman when it comes to betters in general and how important is handicapping and studying the racing form to what you do? You know, well, for me, it’s a, it’s a little bit different. If there’s no gamblers, there’s really no racing game. Obviously pools drive our sport, whether it be a race, you know, whether it be through the windows, whether it be, you know, over the internet and just fans in general.

From a handicapping standpoint, I would say, I look at things a little bit differently than you guys might do, per se. You guys are obviously looking at combinations and tickets and things like that. I’m worried about three things. Really. I’m worried about pace. I’m worried about race setup and I’m worried about the competition really.

So what, [10:08:00] what I buy handicapping is very basic. I want to know who’s going to be on the lead. Who’s going to be coming from off the pace. I’m going to kind of look at some rider type things. So from a day to day on a day-to-day basis, gambling doesn’t creep into my mind. I think if it did, it might sort of affect some of the decisions that I make in the afternoon.

Plus I hate, I hate losing money. So, um, I think that’s one of the things of the discipline gambler. They ha they, they realize that, you know, the calculated risk that goes into that’s involved and like you guys do, you know, playing in contests and stuff like that, you can’t win every time, but you know, every bet counts.

Um, I have a lot of friends that are very good gamblers. This is, you know, it’s, it’s their lifeblood. And they’re fans of racing as well. So I would actually like to know a little bit more about how you guys do it and what you [10:09:00] guys do, because just by asking John some questions about tickets, structure, and algorithms and all those kinds of things that he comes up with, it’s really fascinating, you know, but I’m going to stick to what I know for right now.

And so a handicapping question in, in, in regards to city of light, Uh, we mentioned a little bit earlier, how, you know, he was talented enough to win two grade. One’s going one turn the seven furlongs and then also the mile at an eight. W what do you think was actually like his best distance and what situation do you think would have been?

You know, if you had to run, if you got to run city of light back, one more time at a $10 million race, where would you want to run in? And what distance would you want? You think would be best for him? After what I saw on Saturday night, I have to say at a mile and an eight, I thought it was two sprint races going seven, eight were very good.

I refuse to believe he couldn’t get a mile and a quarter, obviously in the sanity of the gold cup, it kind of found him out last three 16th of a [10:10:00] mile. I don’t know if I can offer any real excuse. He may not have liked the track that day. It seemed a little bit deep. That’s best course, one on the day, but for as good as he was going a mile at the Breeder’s cup, I thought maybe with the addition of a little bit of an off race track on Saturday night, that mile and eight performance blew me away.

It was truly awesome. How much did you and Javier discuss tactics before the race? It seemed like there were a lot of different possibilities. Well, really dead send or try to stalk as it turned out being the two main ones. But I was curious how much input you had in the way that, that played out on Tuesday at the post position draw, there were two spots left.

The 12 post position and the three post position. If we draw the 12, it changes things completely. We were lucky enough. We drew the three. [10:11:00] We had to employ the same type of tactics that we employed at the breeders’ cup. Let him go ahead and run a runaway from there. When pattern with pattern recognition through in the 12, who was obviously the other controlling speed drew way outside, we knew he’d have to be used up a little bit to get to us accelerate.

Two stalls over in the five. So my feeling was first and foremost, when he ran into forego, he broke just, okay. That day to ground kind of came out from underneath him. He broke so hard. I like getting with his short run into the first turn at Gulfstream park. It was impairing of us for us to leave there, running the race, kept on getting a little bit delayed, delayed, delayed.

Javier was able to go ahead and walk the horse up nicely. So we. In the paddock I told Javier, just go ahead, do whatever you need to do to go ahead and establish your position early. I was very surprised at pattern recognition, got to us as fast as he did. Javier said he was able to look over it at pattern recognition and can see he was dead set on getting the lead.

We were. [10:12:00] No able to go ahead and just kind of ease back off of pattern recognition, going into the first turn. It would hop your God outside of him. I thought that was the race right there. Turning up the backside went up. Javier moved him out a path from about the three paths into the four path. His gears went up and really from there, whether he water ran last, he had zero excuses.

She had the perfect trip up until that point turned up the backside. It was a beautiful thing as a city of light fan and city of light backer to see that double handful as they turned from home. And even though accelerate was running, we were just going so much the better your emotions at that point must have started to well up.

Yeah. As far as, even like you just mentioned earlier about what kind of instructions there was so much going on in the paddock and, you know, the it’s kind of that amphitheater aspect, um, all these people around you and you know, the noise and commotion. And I don’t have a whole lot [10:13:00] to say usually in the paddock.

I just said that, Javier, Hey, look, we know what we got to do. Go ahead and get through running away from there. You ride them like you own them. Every time you give someone like Javier a leg up, obviously the hall of fame in bill, you’re getting a professional. Um, so I basically left it up to him. He’s been in these situations a lot more times than I have go with what, you know, It was awesome.

Let me ask you this. One of my colleagues on TV speculated based on the quality of the performance that city of light had, he decided to contest the classic instead of the dirt mile might have won that race. It’s interesting. You revisit the idea of impossibly getting the 10 furlongs. I can’t help shake the idea that had he contested the classic Guevara, maybe passes them all.

Cause they’ve got to go that much faster and are going to be attacked earlier by another quality horse. What’s your thought? Looking [10:14:00] back, are you D if I won’t make you, uh, make a prediction, but are you obviously, and you’re obviously pleased with the way that everything worked out, but do you have any second thoughts about that at all?

You know, Javier had mentioned the same type of thing to me after we were walking back through the tunnel afterwards that he felt that there was no reason why a horse like him and the way he ran on Saturday, couldn’t get a mile and a quarter. Obviously the perfect setup like we had Saturday would probably make that a lot easier.

I think for him, It all depends on the w what I can tell so far or, or what I, my opinion is just that it seems like the tighter, the racetrack, the better it was for him, uh, Oaklawn park was a wet, fast race. So I certainly seem like it helped him out the deluge on Saturday, but I just think a good racetrack was the secret to that horses, you know, is one of the secrets.

I mean, obviously he’s incredibly talented, but I think in the right [10:15:00] setup, in the right scenario, Yes, I think he would be able to get them all in a quarter. You have so many friends in racing. What has been the reaction from the community? Former colleagues bosses at Satra since Saturday, overwhelming, incredibly nice 620 something.

Text messages, mailbox full on your phone, emails, all kinds of stuff. You know, the racetrack is a funny place. All here, we all compete against each other jockey, sit in the same room together all day long and compete against each other. But there is a family type of an atmosphere around here. Um, and a lot of my colleagues were very complimentary, means a lot to me, even your man, Jonathan Thomas, I figured he’d find some way to stick the needle in.

Now you talked about Jonathan Kenton being a vital role. I don’t know if I could have done it without Jonathan Thomas. He was nice enough to go ahead and let us stable at his barn for the week. And he came down three or four [10:16:00] times during the week to supervise, to make sure we were doing everything right.

So. I have to give him an assist as well. There does seem to be a great bond. And you mentioned familial bond. I see that with you guys, when you’re talking and throwing lines back and forth, it does almost seem like brothers, as opposed to colleagues. We were fortunate enough to become friends before we were colleagues.

When I first went to work for Todd Fletcher, Jonathan wasn’t working Christophe cobalt. Jonathan went to work for Dale Romans, obviously. Big part of roses and may, um, then he went off to Saudi Arabia, spent some time in Saudi Arabia, came back and spent five years working for Todd, which was, um, obviously at that time, a wonderful addition to the team we’ve remained close.

You know, he’s a bright guy, intelligent guy, educated guy, a worldly guy, very good friend, really, really lucky to have a bunch of the [10:17:00] friends that I have. You know, John Pentagon, who’s obviously Javier as agents. It makes things nice. When you can share these types of things with guys who have received the you’re also your friends, you know, that’s really cool and makes a lot of sense.

One more question for you, just looking back on your career to this point, you had the opportunity to work. For Todd Pletcher for so long. When you think back to the lessons you learned in that operation, is there one that stands out above the others or one that might have helped in particular when it came to managing the career of city of light?

Boy, there’s so many things, you know, Tazi. For me, he leads by example. So when you’re lucky enough to be around all these good horses, see what some of them can take. What some of them can’t take, how much to push the needle with some of them, each horse has an individual. I think that’s where his strong suit is.

I think the most important thing is he just told me to, you know, taught me to sort of trust your horse. You know what he said, [10:18:00] what are you seeing from him? What is he showing you? And in this case, this horse was showing me everything I wanted to see. His attitude was great. He was moving great. Had a wonderful work over the track.

His appetite was, was as good as I’d ever seen it. I mean, he was eating almost 17 courts of grain a day. Um, It was the perfect storm. So being around so many, as I said, so many good horses, the uncle Mose, going to the Breeder’s cup, juvenile, the rags to riches, the Kentucky Oaks, palace mouth for the Belmont.

You just get a feel for what it takes to get to a big day like that and what to expect on a big day. Although for. $9 million. It was a little bit nerve wracking, especially getting to the race track, and then obviously going in and saddling and stuff like that. It all kind of came to a head as we were down in the walking ring, uh, it really hit home.

The magnitude of something like this. Um, you know, he had provided me with the tools to succeed, let it run my [10:19:00] operation or my string while I was working for him as it was as if it was my own. So. A lot of top Fletcher influencing to what, what went on on Saturday evening. It was magical to watch Michael McCarthy.

Thank you so much for your time today and for appearing on the podcast. We hope to have you back and get to hang out with you soon. Thank you guys. Let that dog back out, Michael. Thanks again. Cheers. JK. Pretty cool. Oh, absolutely. No, it was a, it was a ton of fun. You know, I, I got to meet Michael with, uh, Jake palace, I guess maybe it was two years ago.

Jake had a horse that he wanted to try to get down the Hill. And his relationship with Michael started when, when, you know, one of Jake’s first horses was a horse by the name of joining the dance that was with Todd. And he also had a few other horses with Todd, a horse by the name of race day that he helped buy and short.

Um, anyways, so he got to know Mike, and when we got to go out to Del Mar to hang out, in fact, [10:20:00] We were there when I met Mike the morning that said he city of light, uh, one with Gary Stevens at Del Mar. Um, and so, uh, we’ve stayed in contact and, and, uh, one of the things that, that, that I liked the most about Mike and really about anybody is, is I like people who are comfortable enough in them with their own knowledge of something to ask someone their opinion, they don’t feel like they have all the answers and.

And, uh, you know, Duke will tell you that he was, he was blown away. One time we were sitting in a suite of CNN, Anita and Mike asked a question just about the pace and, and about what he thought, uh, the pace would be in the distance would be in a race and how that would set up for city of light based on all the handicapping information that we all have as horse players and, and.

And that’s the kind of guy that you could really root for. And when they have that success at the top level, it’s really exciting how I felt emotional, a lot of what happened this weekend, just cause I knew how much it meant to him and how hard he’s worked and taking that [10:21:00] chance of going on his own and all of those things.

So it’s been great. Very cool. When you really have been there since the beginning in a funny way, I had forgotten that little part of the story, actually. All right. We said, it’s going to be a short show and we’re going to live up to that. We both have tons of stuff we have to get done, but I know JK, you alluded on Twitter, you have an announcement to make what’s up.

Yeah. Um, I don’t know, you know, funny as I met a hundred percent sure what the name of this show is, I think it’s like Saturday at the races or something, but Niara recently announced that they were going to be doing. Um, that partnership with Fox with over $400 of, of broadcasting, which is going to include, I believe every race from Saratoga, it will be on a Fox network.

I believe it’s Fox sports to our Fs two. Um, and I think maybe some of the bigger races will sneak over to some of the bigger channels, but, uh, I was, uh, I was, uh, asked to be a part of, and so this Saturday is going to be the first one. I think we’re going to head out to Santa Anita. I don’t know who I’m going to be on with.

Um, but I’m looking forward. Tony olive auto has been great and kind of getting [10:22:00] me on board and I’m looking forward to doing that for the rest of this year. Uh, wherever, wherever they go. I won’t be at every show. Uh, but I’ll be at, uh, at, at quite a bit. And then, and then Saratoga, obviously this summer and, and, uh, looking forward to, it sounds like I need to get the garage ready.

It gives the garage, the, the, the only place you don’t need to get ready is that haunted basement. Yeah. When you come to Belmont, you’re going to, I don’t know. Maybe you can find somebody to let you stay in a tack room somewhere. If you’re too a scaredy cat to come stay in the bunker here with they’ll go with me and the ghosts.

Well, I can trust you. I’m too scared. Sleeping upstairs in the red couch works. You’re more than welcome anytime. It’s a very exciting new development in your career in all seriousness, excited to see you as part of those Fox broadcasts. Unlike me, you don’t have to travel halfway around the world to do a television interview.

No problem is I gotta get a haircut now and I gotta do something about this. This facial hair. And, uh, uh, when I [10:23:00] went on last time, when I went on to kinda, when they had me come up, just to kind of, I guess when they were trying to figure out who they were going to use, I told Tony, I was like, Tony, I’m not really like a suited and booted guy.

Like, is that okay? Do I do I in, you know, and, uh, I got away with it then, so I’ll probably have to step my game up a little bit, uh, moving forward. But, uh, I, I, I don’t think you’re going to see too many ties. You can be very comfortable in a suit. Some of them are essentially just like pajamas for adults.

I’d suggest going in that direction. You mean, I can’t wear a t-shirt. I don’t know. You can like make it your gimmick the way most people don’t wear hats on TV, but I do, I’ve tried to make it my gimmick, you know, and now when I don’t do it, the host will make fun of me. Maybe you can be the guy in the t-shirt, but you better talk to Tony.

I don’t want you heading out there getting yourself into trouble, having to run over to the mall across the street at Santa Anita and buy a suit at the last minute. We don’t want to see that. We’ll see, we’ll see how it goes. We’ll figure something out, but looking forward to it. So everybody. Everybody tuned in on, [10:24:00] uh, on Saturday sent those DVRs, let’s get these good ratings and we want you to give us more information.

You find out the correct name of the show and exactly where, and when you’re going to be on, we’ll share that on the Friday show. We’ll look back again to Pegasus day. We’ll talk about hidden scroll and all the rest, but that’s going to do it for this edition of the DRF. Player’s podcast. I want to thank Jonathan.

Kenshin playing hurt coming on with his larynx, sounding like it was stepped on by a fat man. I want to thank Michael McCarthy. What a dude to come on and do this running around, doing 17 different things. He sounded like he moved heaven and earth to do a few minutes with us today. And we appreciate that, but I’ll tell you what most of all, I appreciate all of you.

The listeners keep the subscriptions to the blog coming. Keep the subscriptions on iTunes coming. Keep the visits to in the money coming. The support has been amazing since we went out on our own, we want to keep it going. We want to make this show bigger and better than ever have a lot of [10:25:00] ideas in that regard.

And thank you for your support all the way along. That’s it. We’ll be back on Friday. I’m Pete Thomas foreign, a towel. May you win all your photos?

there’s that great photo that’s been captured? I think Zoe Metz was the photographer guys. This is awkward, but I got to go let the dog out. Mike there’s the first time I’ve been interrupted in an interview to let the dog in,

I’m going to have to find a way to use this audio.

 [10:26:00] Your listening to the, in the money players podcast. Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. It is show number 10. It is Friday, January 25th, 2019. I am your host, Peter Thomas foreign Italian. Very far from the Brooklyn bunker today, 3000 miles away, or so, a little more than that. I think in London, West London, to be specific at the Ibis budget Hounslow, which is a hotel that reminds me very much of the youth hostels.

I stayed in back after my college days, traveling around Europe with the notable exception that there’s only one person to a room and the. Bedrooms are on suite, meaning you don’t have to go out in the hallway to take a pee. So that’s an improvement. Cool place. I’m totally digging it. Dig and being back in London, really just about my first pure business [10:27:00] trip to London got in here yesterday.

Did get to go out to a pub last night, but basically just crashed three nights in a row as part of the sky racing coverage of Pegasus weekend. That’s going to be a lot of fun. And then I fly right back, probably going to do this a few times this year, if all goes well. And maybe I found my new home away from home here in Hounslow.

I am joined by a man who’s not in Hounslow. He’s not on the planet, Texas. He is in Florida. He was at the eclipse awards last night. He’s sticking around for the Pegasus. And of course the Pegasus tournament this weekend, he is still the people’s champion. He’s Jonathan kitchen. What’s up Jake. Yeah. And he’s also never going to stay in a hostel.

I don’t know if you’ve seen that movie. Where they like cut that lady toes off or whatever. Those I’m not never staying in a hostel, not staying in a hostel and not staying in your basement. I can keep going, keep going. If you want me to Eli Roth, right? It wasn’t Eli Roth. The director of a hostel, my buddy, a friend of a friend.

He’s one of Chris Jericho’s buddies who was also [10:28:00] in the Quentin Tarantino movie. Uh, if I have my horror masters, correct. You’re you’re afraid he cat JK. I don’t know what to tell you. Yeah, and I don’t ride roller coasters. I, like I said, I can keep going. Um, I can definitely keep going. So you told me something very interesting as I was struggling here without a no DJ unstable assistance today to get the show up and running.

Hopefully it doesn’t sound too bad. I did something weird to get it going at all. It doesn’t look exactly right. In the levels, but I think it’s close enough for rock and roll. But as I was wrestling with the equipment, you told me this interesting trick you have whilst on the road to prepare for a handicapping contest, share it with the listeners.

What were you up to this year? I went and got a pedicure. Um, it’s, it’s a, it’s a very relaxing thing to do that still allows you to handicap. You know, usually the. Uh, the pedicures, I think that’s the correct term. Doesn’t speak to you all it’s happening. Uh, sometimes they do, but you can usually just kind of one word, answer them until they [10:29:00] stop.

And that’s your strength in numbers when you’re studying and whatnot. One word answer until they stop drinking Uber’s as well. Okay. And then you can handicap while you’re there. It’s nice and relaxing. And then, uh, I I’ve, I’ve got ugly feet. Oh, I can’t believe that’s true. From a shape standpoint. They’re fine.

I just like don’t ever put like lotion on, so they’re always like extra dry, you know? So anyways, I, uh, I went and sorted it out. They pulled out for the first time today. I’m not joking. They pulled out, you know, those things, those automatic things that you mix cake batter with with those little to spinny things.

Yeah. The little mixer, the mixture. Yeah. I know. I’m sure it has a proper name, but I know exactly what you mean. The things that actually do the, the mixing, it looks sort of like a, a poorly constructed birdcage. He pulled out one of those things and put on a put on like a, like a sander. And like with sanding my heels and I took a video of it, sent it to the Prince of, uh, Prince of Caitlin and he said, uh, I said, this is a little [10:30:00] aggressive.

Isn’t it? And the Prince, the Prince responded not for your gross ass.

Maybe a case of TMI may be a case of too hot for DRF already on the show. We were supposed to get that later in a bit. Acacia Courtney will be joining with a live report. From not really a report. I interviewed her a couple of days ago about the buzz surrounding the Pegasus a little bit about her background as well.

What she looks for when looking at horses in the paddock, that’s coming up a little bit later, but yeah, now we’ve learned about your feet, so that’s exciting. Um, tell us about that. Oh, you go ahead. W, yeah, that was, that’s what I was gonna tell you about it. We haven’t talked so sometimes it’s fun when we have our first column conversation on the show rather than having it before.

So, um, last night I went to the eclipse awards. I just went to the cocktail hour. Right. I didn’t have like a. Whatever. And, uh, I didn’t have like a situation and I didn’t not to be, I mean, the eclipse awards is great, but I don’t want to sit there for two hours. It wasn’t winning anything. I wasn’t, you know, I just, there was no reason to sit there for two hours.

So here’s what I, here’s what I did last night. You’ll love my evening. [10:31:00] Um, I, well, first of all, I didn’t wear a tie to the black tie optional. I thought there was black tie optional. I just thought it not to wear a black it’s it’s it’s right. It’s black tie, optional other words. He needs a tie. It doesn’t have to be a black tie.

You just went with no, no title. So there’s, there was two people without black ties. Uh, one of them received an award for horse of the year. So I don’t feel that bad. That was Jack Wolf, right from Starlight racing. He didn’t have a tie on, we joked his wife had knee surgery. And so he’s telling everyone that he didn’t know how to tie his tie.

That’s why he didn’t wear a warning when in reality that wasn’t the truth. Um, so I hung out there for a little while it was fun. Um, uh, just seeing all the, the, uh, racing elite. And then I. I, I invited myself to a dinner. I, I texted Nate newbie and I said, Nate, I don’t have anything to do. What are you doing?

And he said, meet me, TQ, Leo and fluorine are going to, to SAR delis. It’s just like a Italian restaurant that looks like it’s in a house down. Uh, not too far from, [10:32:00] from, uh, from Gulf stream. It’s really delicious. And so I was like, well, can I come? And they’re like, yeah, eight o’clock. Well, The eclipse will started at seven.

So I had an hour to kill between seven and eight. So what did I do? I got a hundred dollars worth of chips. And I went and sat down and played one to no limit and went all in until I lost. Oh my God. I just kept going all in. And they were not very happy with me. They were very upset. You’re the jerk at the poker table.

Aren’t you? I could see you in that role jerk at the poker table, but here’s the best thing, right? Here’s the best part I’m sitting across from a guy. I went all in. I actually had a hand. I went all in. And he, um, he was deciding if he was gonna call me and I looked across the table and he was on his phone, scrolling through PPS.

And I said, look, man, Um, I’m going to beat you here, but if you, if you call me, I will, I will bet you all the money that you lose to me, that city of light will win the Pegasus. And he folded. So then I went to dinner with [10:33:00] TQ at Nate and fluorine and Leo, and you know, all four of those guys. And those were really fun night.

And, and, uh, that was it for me. The MVPs of the Eddie Logan suite. I had no idea that, uh, Leo and fluorine were making the trip. Had they won entries to the Pegasus or were they just so interested in it and in the winner’s bonus for playing live, that they decided to make the trip. Uh, I believe it was a winner’s bonus probably, uh, drew them out here.

And then also just their relationship with, with Santa Nita in the Stronach group, by being some of their biggest players that they have on track there. Uh, I’d imagine that, that, uh, Nate and TQ probably, uh, Pressured them to come hang out with, uh, out here in South Florida for the week. Fluorine is great.

Of course, he’s won contests out there before. I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing him, hanging out with him. You got to make sure you got to always leave his seat open at that big table there in Logan. But Leo, really one of my absolute favorites, one of my most requested pieces. I don’t know if that’s the right way of saying it, but one of the most popular [10:34:00] things I wrote.

In my time at DRF was the piece I wrote about Leo, which was titled something like everything I needed to know about business. I learned booking horses in the bars of the San Gabriel mountains. It’s, uh, a fun piece. I’ll link to it on the blog at some point. And then one of the best days of Saratoga was the surprise visit from Leo.

When he came in to go to Duke Matisse’s birthday party, seriously, good crew. You were hanging out with that. You’re very lucky. They let you join. Oh, it was, Oh, it was a lot of fun. I’ve had a lot of fun. I got to see Paul Matisse. Um, yesterday I saw the Ms. Story. Uh, father, son duo yesterday. Got to see Joel Applebaum yesterday.

I got to see us and it was a lot of fun. Got to see a lot of, a lot of people. It’s it’s happening now. The MVPs of the contest world, all descending upon South Florida for this Pegasus contest, I presume you’ll be participating. Yeah, , we’re about to blast at these races so I can go all in. And the first [10:35:00] I am betting, I’m betting the first one.

I’m not going all in production meeting in the middle of the show. It’s just so I know how long to let these discussions go for how many tangents to go on. How much time do you have for us today? 10 minute Uber ride to do. I could probably do 20 minutes. I already took showers, got through the clothes on.

So I think right, we can. We’re good. We are going to have to roll through races, but we can make that happen. Let’s start off with a little rematch, JK rematch of the breeders’ cup turf sprint. We’ve got stormy liberal, the champion stormy liberal. I might add. Along with world of trouble back in pay any price, not excluded this time, welcome open arms he was welcomed with.

And he’s an interesting presence in this race from a pace point of view. Certainly. W do you think, uh, that’s going to make the difference a little bit of extra pace in here. How do you think this one’s going to turn out? I’ll tell you this. I sat [10:36:00] with, with Paul and the team the other day. Oh, well, two days in a row.

I’ve, I’ve talked to Duke, I’ve talked to a ogre, who’s a Mattise clan member. Uh, and, and I saw the trainer, Georgina, Baxter, all four of them have a different idea of how pay any price. So I don’t know what to tell you. I mean, look, he’s got one way of going. Um, I, I sounds like somebody is telling you stories to me.

I mean, just looking at the PPS. Well, he’s got one way of going, but here’s the truth of the matter is if he duels with one of those two horses, they’re just better than him. He’s a really cool horse. He’s one of the coolest claims I’ve ever seen. Um, very cool horse, but he goes, if he goes a ding-dong with world of trouble, he’s got to get buried.

If he ding-dongs with stormy liberal, he’s going to get buried. His only chance I, you know, to their point is, is that he tucks in and hopes that something goes wrong with one of them. They missed the break or they just don’t fire. They’re not ready to dah, dah, dah, dah, whatever. And then he can kind of pick up the pieces. Um, I want world of trouble. Uh, and, and the spot I, I, you know, he’s outside a [10:37:00] store and be a liberal, which I think is an advantageous position. Um, I think world of trouble, Um, is, is probably, you know, got a little bit more of an improvement. He’ll

probably be a better price. Stormy liberal, like you said, it was champion turf turf, male last night.

Uh, the rider switch. I, I don’t want to say it’s a positive switch. It’s just a switch back and, you know, Joel used to ride them now it’s Drayton. Uh, now Joel again, so a world of trouble for me, but I’ll be rooting for pay any price and hopefully he’ll give us a nice little a thrill. When he, when he turns for home on the front end or, or sitting in behind, we’ll go head to head here.

I’ll bet you a pedicure and I’ll take stormy liberal against your world of trouble. Just thinking that it’s going to set up a little bit for him. And it’s an interesting question about the prices. I would have said that you were probably right in your prediction of the bedding, but interestingly, on the morning line, I do see world of trouble, six to five, stormy liberal, eight to five, but another one of the comments we got from our survey was people loved the head to heads.

They love seeing you beat me the way the [10:38:00] Harlem globe Trotters beat the Washington generals JK. Really, I, I need to be sure about just to be clear, just because we’ve started, uh, Quote, unquote new show does not mean the record. You are still losing 87. Well, we’ll see if I can’t get the first one on the board, in the new stadium as it were.

All right. Where should we go? Next racing wise, should we skip ahead to race seven, the hurricane birdie, a grade three seven for longs on the dirt. I do think so. Um, I like one horse here. There’s two horses that, that, that I have, uh, that I think will take money. And I don’t really like either one of them, Nick tomorrow, our buddy Nick tomorrow, uh, at, in Tam 1215, if you don’t already follow him on Twitter, you should.

Uh, Nick made a comment on paraphrasing that the horse he’s most excited to bet against this weekend, a Shamrock Rose, uh, off of the Breeder’s cup. Uh, filly and mare, uh, sprint, and also she’s a champion as well. So I think that she’ll probably be over bet considering that she got a great [10:39:00] setup that day and, and, uh, and really was, you know, she was one 25 to one that day.

Uh, Sean Borman did like her. I will give him that. He’s the only human I knew that liked her. I don’t like drum dream Pauline either. She was kind of a, kind of got a nice trip and that’s not a sloppy race. The horse that I’m interested in bedding is stormy embrace. Who’s a little bit further back in that race, uh, trying to close.

And I think that she’ll offer a little bit more value. She’s drawn outside. I’ll be able to see what’s going on there. And, uh, hopefully we’ll be able to get four or five, six to one on stormy embrace with the other two Phillies taking money. And we can’t go head to head here. Cause I like the same one. I did notice those time form U S coded blue fractions in the last run for stormy embrace.

So two votes there for number eight in re seven stormy embrace. And with that JK, we can move on to the eighth race. The LA . Is that it? Did I get that right? Or do we, do we have another, uh, LCB IDs on our hands? I’m going to have to call Nick luck. He’s like a French [10:40:00] major. Maybe he could help you out with that one.

I don’t, I don’t know. So I’ll Nick lucky last night too, by the way. Oh, very cool. Santa Monica is a horse that I was kind of a wise guy, horse for me, a horse that I used in the, uh, priests cup filium here turf. She was 30 to one that day. Obviously it was beat by her a stable mate and. Champion’s sister.

Charlie. I think that Santa Monica is probably the most classy of the horses in here. The fact that she’s still in training is a good sign. I would imagine that she has some worth just based on some of her races. She has some worse in the breeding shed. So the fact that she shows up here. Um, unfortunately you don’t get to see the workout reports from pacing.

Uh, there’s not a clock or at pace in the last three works are on the turf. I think she’ll be ready to rock and roll on a big day. Uh, she, you know, and, and, and you know, this mile and a half is kind of exactly what she wants. I’ll be trying to build things around Santa Monica, outside of her. They all can kind of when these mile and a half to her phrases.

Uh, but that’s the one I think is the most likely winner I was going to put in a little bit of vote for number three, English fair in here, JK the Calumet farms, [10:41:00] runner English channel, uh, is the sire. I really liked the race to back, even though the wind wasn’t there going the longer distance, that was a coded red time for them, us race early, she attacked maybe a little bit too early causing a little bit of a flat out flatten out late.

But I think that race was maybe. A little bit better than it looked, got the job done. Last time, going shorter seemed like a square price to me in a race where I see your case for Santa Monica. I’m not eager to head to head or take you on in that one, but I’m not as convinced at a short price that that’s where I want to go.

My gut is that wholly Halena can be beaten. Who’s the morning line. Favorite? Do you agree with that? Is she one you’d use protectively or, or are you against. Uh, no, I think she definitely could when I like English affairs as well, uh, the last two trips were, were, uh, weren’t the best of, of trips. And I think I’m pretty sure.

And I, and I think our, our buddy John paint, I got what I would agree. I think he’s a rider upgrade from [10:42:00] Brian Hernandez and Corey Landry to Javier, especially in South Florida. So I, I would, I, you know, that was the one I almost picked if I, if I didn’t have a little bit of a crush on Santa Monica. Gotcha.

Fair enough. Well, we’ll give you two there to take a shot with Holy Helaina defensive use for JK sounds like, and one that I’m willing to get knocked out by. Maybe I’m just wrong, but it feels like a race. Where we can get a nice mid price in, and that’s the way that I’m going to play it. Let’s talk about the Hooper.

We moved back to the dirt for this grade three cold front is in here installed as the nine to five morning line. Favorite. I know he’s a horse you’ve liked in the past. JK, does the race go through him or do you have another idea? This is not an official statement. Cause it’s just racetrack rumor. I heard cold fronts going to scratch and run somewhere else.

Interesting. Okay. So, so if you’re handicapping this race, don’t please don’t scratch them out until that’s official, but at least take that into consideration when you’re making your decisions. If you started know tonight looking at it, um, with that said, I’m going to pretend [10:43:00] he’s not in the race. Okay. Uh, breaking lucky as a horse that I remember in his last race in Gulf stream, George Weaver was excited to get him back.

He’s excited to see him run and he ran huge that day one by eight. Um, and so I, my attention is always going to kind of go to him. I’m looking forward to watching him run, uh, but I’m going to give copper town another shot. He was so bad in that race. Uh, at aqueduct I’m, I’m hoping that that he’s going back in the right direction.

The workout report seems to be leaning back in his, in his favor. I was going to ask you about that. Cause I know the Clockers were nuts about him before the good race too. Back at Keeneland. Right. Yeah, no, I I’ve. I’ve uh, you know, he’s on SBTV and look, the good Javier. He worked, he worked, you know, he worked good and I think he’s just a really, really talented, talented horse.

And I know they have, uh, they had high hopes for him to get them to the cigar mile. And, and now I think that this could hit them right between the eyes and the idea that they’re going to. Scratch [10:44:00] cold front and run him. I, I, I, I feel like that’s a, a confidence booster. It was like they’re, they’re believing in the horse.

Uh, the price will tell you the truth of South Florida. He’s bet he’ll win. Um, if he’s 61, four to one, five to one, maybe you want to look elsewhere for it with a horse, like breaking lucky for the record. I’ll take copper down. Uh, apologies for my ignorance. What’s the connection between copper town and cold front that I’m not seeing that you they’re both.

They’re both. They’re both Todds. Of course. Yeah. I was thinking about the ownership that was ignorant, but I’ll leave it in. I’m not insecure. I’m secure enough that I’ll leave in a silly mistake like that. In fact, we haven’t hit the mistake jar in a while and I just found out today J K. We now know the identity of the charity.

That’s going to be getting all of the good funds from the mistake jar. When we finally crack it open and distribute payment. And it’s the thoroughbred retirement foundation coming on board as the first official sponsor of the, in the money Claire’s podcast. How cool is that? I like it. I like it. That’s [10:45:00] great.

That’s, uh, that’s exciting. You know, anytime we can give back these, these animals give us a lot and give us a lot of entertainment. And, uh, and, and some of us, they make us some money. So, um, any, any opportunity we can to, to kind of help them along in their careers and their lives after their careers. I like it.

We’re going to be talking to folks from there, not just about the work they do with equines, but also the work they’ve done in prisons. Rehabilitating humans through horses, their second chances program, some great stories to come out of there. We’ll be telling them on the podcast in short order, just got to get some paperwork done, but it’s a, I’m confident enough that it’s a done deal that will, that I’m talking about it.

So that’s, that’s a good sign. All right. The McKnight. We’re back to a mile and a half on the turf. Had we time, I would do a whole tale from the track about Hunter O’Reilly and how during his big win in Saratoga, hurricane Anthony had backed the horse and was a sore winner. Have you ever heard that story?

[10:46:00] Uh, no, but I can, I, if I close my eyes, I can picture exactly how it went down strange because you understand somebody cussing and yelling when they lose it. I mean, it’s not a great thing to do, but it happens to all of us, but he won and was cussing and yelling at a crowd of people, including paren and also his son max who’s also parent’s age.

The best part of the story. I was going to draw this out for five minutes, but you’re getting the quick version was his wife is so great. Uh, Laura, she made him come by the next day and individually apologized to all of us who were sitting at the, at the table in the paddock part of that day. Very entertaining stuff from hurricane Anthony, who is a great guy.

I don’t know what got into him that day. And I shouldn’t embarrass him by telling the story on the show, but, you know, Those are the breaks when you act like a goofball? I, I don’t expect people to not make fun of me for rooting home, you know, Mayweather the one to 10 shot. So hurricane Anthony doesn’t get spared either.

Okay. Yeah. I realized that was [10:47:00] one. We really spared me when we did the Christmas quiz. We spared me embarrassment. File that one away for this year as Christmas quiz, there has to be a Floyd Mayweather question. You know, Pete horribly embarrassed himself rooting for which long odds on shot. Was it a American Pharaoh be justify, see Floyd Mayweather.

The answer of course is, see who do you like him? And, uh, and at what hall of fame jockey, that was the worst part, half the jockey colonies there. And they’re just thinking who is this idiot? But anyway, it happens to all of us. It happens to all of us, your thoughts. Me you Matt Bernier horse suit. Who’s our trainer here.

That could be another one. I’m going to go with, I’m going to go with Mike maker and this one, the mile and a half race. I, I, I, I liked, uh, I always have a trouble with this horse is named so solely, solely Oh, Sonya solely. Oh yeah. The horse ran well last night, I think it was a two, a two mile race, but was closing into tepid fractions from way back out of it.

I think he’ll probably be a little bit more in this [10:48:00] race going a mile and a half. He’s obviously got the. The, uh, the stamina, uh, to do so. And so, uh, I I’ll, I’ll definitely, I’m going to, I’m going to go with him there. Highland. Sky’s a horse that I’ve tried to bet probably 75,000 times. How many times do you run 20?

I’ve met him probably 19 times. And at the time that he won, I never bet. I bet him so many times in the, not the time that he won, but I’ve stayed away since and that’s worked out well. Yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to do the same here. Stay away from, from him here. And, uh, take a look at the black roulette.

Since, since I’m a black, I’m a roulette player now, um, that we have, we are going to have to now tell that story. So you, so these roulette, I thought the pools for roulette in Santa Nita were small. Then I saw the pools at Gulf stream. We, they literally the hundreds of dollars, right? The first one had $113.

How much of that was yours? No, I didn’t bet that one. So we were all sitting around and yeah, uh, Paul mentees and we’re just, just so I can be clear, I’m just, I’m sure. I’m surprised I haven’t gotten attacked on Twitter yet, [10:49:00] but I made a joke that like I was like, I wonder, cause you couldn’t, it’s hard to find the pool size.

And I said, I wonder what the price will do if I bet 20 bucks. So I just jumped on and I just bet $20 as a joke just to see what happened. And it went from like, it went from one to two to one to five, but then someone in the building or in the world, but the other color, and I went up to even money and I paid more than I got to the two horses that I liked the first and second choice.

I got even money for when the winter paid three 80 or three 60. So like, this is why you’re proclaiming yourself a roulette genius on Twitter. I made three more roulette, batch joking when I hit all of them. I mean, it’s, it’s the greatest bet ever invented in the box. You got to take on some of our friends and I use that term loosely on Twitter, making those kinds of statements.

I love it. I will give a pick here. I, I thought it’s not anything that clever, but, uh, Cain Asar is that may be how you [10:50:00] pronounce the name of the number seven for Arno Della Corp with Castillano up again, look like there was some pace here. Looked like the best closer. Just keep it simple and offer a selection for me in the McKnight.

And with that, let’s move on. To the 11th race. It is the Pegasus turf and one of the podcast all-stars Yoshida makes his return to the races. I did not pick him. I did a whole write-up for. At the races website, you’ll see a link to that on the blog. I think he’s got every chance. He’s a little bit interesting at the prices he is over here for sure.

At seven to two boy, if this morning line guests though JK is right about number four airlines, that would be a very large wager. She looks terrific to me. Very handy. Suited for USA racing just from watching the videos and how good she is. Left-handed getting all that weight. Um, Sean Tougaloo was mad at me.

He read my piece and he taunted me via text when I picked [10:51:00] against Yoshida, but I didn’t really pick against Yoshida. I picked the potential price of airline. Now, granted, they might wind up being a lot closer, uh, in the bedding than five to two and eight to one. So keep that in mind. But in terms of selection, handicapping, a few days out it’s airline for me.

Where are you? That horse is going to be favored. I mean, everyone in the world is like picking the horse. Really everyone. I mean, yeah. I mean, I’ve heard one person say something negative and that was it. And I respect his opinion a lot. And he’s given me some really good international information in the past.

He’s one of my go-tos and that’s Pat Cummings and he’s like head over heels over this feeling like he can’t. He, he can’t even, he can’t wait for tomorrow. The opportunity to we’ll cut in line. We always say you wouldn’t cut in line. He’ll cut in line bat. He’ll cut in line. And he’s a forceful figure. You don’t want to get in Pat’s way.

He’ll knock you right over. Yeah, no, I look, I love Yoshida. I really do do think [10:52:00] he’s a talented, talented animal. Um, based on, you know, obviously his turf classic wind in the yielding ground and then his, his performance in, uh, in the, in one of the best mile races in the world. And it asks it. And like real good in that race this year, by the way, if he does, if they decide to do it and come back, it doesn’t look like the queen and shaping up that strong year.

She did look, he’d be a single digit price in there just saying. Yeah. So I like him a lot. I think that that’s obviously, we’re all trying to, you know, I’ll use the, the Japanese Philly as well. Um, if things are going well in the contest, I could see some doubles with Yoshida, uh, and Aero life into some, into some, uh, Into a horse or maybe two in the, in the Pegasus itself.

I do have one question though hit me and I don’t want to pick on this person because I like him, but, but Luke tweeted the other day, like said there’ll be no easy leads in the Pegasus turf race Pako will ride WW with one instruction. So I always thought that like he was using WWE as a. As a cause they said handicap accordingly as if he was warning people that that horse is going to be used as a [10:53:00] rabbit.

That’s the only horse he has in the race. So I went a little bit confused by that, but at least we know the pace will be honest. So the other thing that’s crazy. The other thing that’s crazy is it’s not like Fahan has some favorite who people are concerned about getting an easy lead. I mean, There’s your, there’s your leader right there.

I mean, our life is not a need. The lead. Our lights is a push button horse. You watch on the tape. She’s happy to sit in stock. I’m just concerned that the way the race was written with the weight break for the no Lasix, it’s written, it’s really written for horse like airlines to take advantage. And I think that’s probably why Pat is so gung ho about bedding her and, and it’s written not at all to suit Yoshida.

Um, having to carry the extra weight against talented opposition. But, uh, as I was texting with Sean to the really terrific horses, they overcome the weight and maybe Yoshida will do just that. I’m excited. I would love to be alive to both of them. [10:54:00] The other one, I think is a little bit interesting from a wagering point of view.

I’m curious what you think is bricks and mortar. I’ve never liked that horse. So. I’m probably the wrong person to ask. I’ve always just thought he was, uh, you know, just kind of an over bet. Chad horse, right? Um, especially back when he beat Yoshida, it’s probably why I hate them so much. All the famous cost me a lot of money that day.

I just, I mean, when you, when you think about Chad, okay. When you think about Chad in his, in his career and what he’s done in the last five years, three, four or five years, and you think, Ooh, there’s going to be a grade one race, and it’s going to be in Florida and they’re going to give away $7 million.

Right. You think Chad had six and they’d all be animals like freaks. And he shows up with this allowance, horse, bricks and mortar. I know. Thank you. I like here just to give you the handicap in case of why, like, I feel like that comeback, or I love the fact that the comebacker was the best figure. When I doubt the screws were tightened, I feel like he does have that on over your sheet, on the form book.

Granted Yoshida came back and beat [10:55:00] him twice subsequently. But if that was a new level of ability and he’s going to improve second off the layoff, he might take a lot of beating. If he’s forgotten, he’s another to, to consider. I’m just throwing it out there. Of course he probably will not be forgotten.

He’ll probably be five to two vying for favoritism the way they bet some of these Chad animals. Yeah. I mean, God bless him. I, I just, not, for me, not for me, not in this spot, not, you know, not a, not in a $7 million race where, which, I mean, it looks more like a $700,000 race if I’m being honest, but. Uh, whatever happens is it’ll be, it’ll be fun, probably would have gotten the same field for the, for the price that you said, which is interesting to think about, but a conversation for another day, not one where you’re rushing to get out the door, not a word from either of us about catapult.

What a great story. This one ran so big in the Breeder’s cup mile, looking to give Sadler a huge double on the day, or start a huge double on the day. [10:56:00] Um, I legitimately am opposed, I think at the likely odds. What about you? Completely mile mile 16th mile, mile, mile, 16th, mile, 16th mile mile, 16th mile mile, mile mile, like he’s a mile or he’s not a mile and three 16 tours.

If you was, they would have tried this before. No, thank you. Fair enough. I should’ve made that point in my article, but it’s too late because it’s already up Again, you can find it in the blog post in the money apologies folks for not going deeper into this race. And we’re really going to give a very quick look at the Pegasus.

However, if you want more, I have runner by runner notes. There’ll be posted a link on the blog. You can find them on the after races website. So I’m not going to say too much about the Pegasus. I will let you though, JK at least give us your pick. You sorta showed your hand earlier in the week with your affection for city of light.

I agree with you. City of light is my official top pick here. I don’t see much between him and accelerate and [10:57:00] you’re going to get twice the price on city of light. Again, for my full thoughts, check out my article, but why don’t you give us a few sentences more on this one? And then we will let you go bet some horses.

Insider info. He weighs five pounds more than he did before the breeders’ cup, dirt mile. He hasn’t lost a, a, an ounce of weight. He’s thriving. He’s eating all of his food. In fact, I even scooped. A scoop of his food for him. So when he wins, I’ll feel like I really had a part part in it. I was like the room, Jonathan Kimmy.

You know what I mean? We’ll, we’ll be in the winter circle together. No, I’m joking about that. No, but from a handicapping standpoint, I really do believe that if he’s written in the aggressive, I’m glad he drew the one in the third mile. Right. Because, you know, Mike and Javier acknowledge that from down there, they had no, no other option, but to go.

And I think they learned not that they didn’t already know, but they really learned what they had to have a freakishly talented horse that can go really fast [10:58:00] and can really put it to other horses in the race. And I think he’ll be written the same way from the three, especially on this racetrack. Uh, that’s a speed favoring racetrack, and Mike’s obviously no, no stranger to that with his time with Todd here in South Florida.

So I think he’ll break from the inside. Um, obviously pattern recognition is, is one that could, could keep it interesting, but, but, but Chad Brown horses don’t. They don’t don’t duel with other horses. They sometimes they find the lead, but they’re horses that shut off. They always work in company, you know, kind of recognition is going to sit right off of city of light.

And as long as Javier and city of light, don’t make the mistake of going too slow. Um, you know, we talked about the other night. If you go 49 or 48 to the half, you’re not going to win. You’re going to get beat. If you go 46, you’re going to gut the other horse and you’ve got a great chance of winning. Um, I think accelerate is more of a mile and a quarter horse.

I think if you look at his performances in a mile and an eighth, he was either beating no one, or he was, he was helped by the race track. I just don’t think he gets going until these mile and a quarter, uh, [10:59:00] type situations. And I think he’s in a, it’s going to be tough. And I also think that Joelle has a really good chance of making a mistake and letting not letting city of light get away from him and getting sucked into city of lights.

Vortex and being in some trouble with, with going too quick, I really do like the horse. Um, I think if I was looking for a price in here, the price would probably be audible, uh, or Gunawirra, um, audible, I think ran too bad to be true. And that sloppy race last time was kind of a weird ride. They went slow.

He was wide at that. The da. Um, I, I think that he could be, um, dangerous based on how well he ran at seven furlongs on, on, on, uh, on a breeders’ cup day and I didn’t expect him to do so. I think that he, he’s probably going to get going back in the right direction at which should be a pretty fair price. So good in the paddock that day, like fall over.

Good. Um, in, on the breeders cup undercard as I was there doing some stuff for, uh, for, at the races, it was just one of those horses. You put down what you’re doing and you say, who is that? I thought the comebacker for audible was underwhelming enough that I did [11:00:00] not leave him in my mix here. I want to see him prove it, but it wouldn’t surprise me for all the reasons you’re saying.

So tactically, you think they’re going to send with city of light, huh? Absolutely. No, I definitely think that, I mean, I don’t think they’re going to like, you know, quarter-horse the horse, but I think that when they, when they approach that first turn, I guess I think it’s a seven, eight pole. I’m trying to get better at my polls when they approached the seven eights poll into the first turn.

I would imagine that they’re going to be. On the lead. And I won’t put anyone, I won’t throw anyone under the bus, but, um, you could probably figure out who I’m talking about. One of the small artist handicappers I’ve ever been around and probably my handicapping idle. If it’s not him, it’s the other guy.

He predicts. If he’s on the lead, when they turn, when they, when they go to the backstretch, if he’s on the lead and he’s clear, it’s over, it’s over as in he’ll win. Yeah, it’s interesting. I just was imagining them wanting the Oaklawn trip again. And I figured that pattern recognition has no choice, but to go from the far outside post.

So I was imagining a pattern recognition on the lead and [11:01:00] city of like Justin behind pressing. Oh, yeah, I think, I mean, I’m not saying that won’t happen, but I think that would be on, I, I don’t, I don’t, I think city of light kind of, yeah, it’s a little bit of that. And please don’t get me wrong here. He’s got a little bit of that American Pharaoh games.

Come on, dude. Fields, diversify field to him where come on, let’s go. Let’s go with the faster he goes, the better he is and, and, and inviting horses into the race is not what’s going to help him out. Um, we’ll see what happens and see what Javier decides to do, but I think a forward position. Uh, and, and, and from that, from that spot, uh, on, you know, I think you want to go if he was in the 12, if the, if you flip the post positions and it was the 12 and the three.

Okay. Maybe that makes a little bit of sense to me, but, but yeah. And I’m going to completely turn, right. Cause I, I forgot that I haven’t told you this shit, but it’s very exciting news. Um, do you know who got diversified? Yes, Jonathan Thomas ended up with diversify, which is really cool. Yes. And I think he really took it as a, as an honor to, to be the one to get, to take over the training [11:02:00] from the late Rick violet, who was somebody who was admired throughout the industry and particularly by his fellow horsemen.

So th that was a great story and something. And something really cool to see. I know you said you were going to go, but I just have to push back about the point about city of light being best on the lead. I just, I look at his PPS. I think the Oaklawn race was his best race and the figures would tend to agree at least the time form figures that I’m looking at in my face.

So I guess we can agree to disagree about the tactics, but really from a city of light point of view, I think the way to look at it is he’s got multiple ways to win. Well, the thing about that race is two things. One, he was drawn outside and it was the first time and he was drawn outside of the horse. He had to be, and it was the first time they had gone to two turns.

So there was that question, Mark, you know, w when you’re stretching, we’re sad. When people wonder, is he going to stretch out your answer is not, let’s blitz them on the lead. Like it’s like, let’s, let’s rate them and see if he’ll get the distance, but now they know what they have. And he just won the, the, the, the [11:03:00] best mile dirt race in America.

Going one Oh eight to six furlongs as he was flying on the lead from the inside. So I think they learned more about the horse and I don’t think that you want to get into a stamina Quicken, closing type of race with them, with the breeders cup classic winner and accelerate. I feel like you bring stamina more into it by going fast early.

Well, it’s not like he doesn’t have any stamina, right? I don’t know. I mean, I guess this is, I guess this is why it’s a fun game, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s cool. We both liked the horse. We both liked the horse. I think we both think the horse is gonna win. You think he’s gonna win one way? I think he’s the one the other way.

So, so maybe he’s maybe he’s the lock of the century, so it doesn’t matter what. I don’t know, accelerate, certainly not out of it. Um, he’s proved you and me wrong before many times. I just think there are going to be such similar prices. You go with the longer price. I just don’t see that much between them try to get gunna to Vera on the board.

And I would try to get. Pattern recognition out of the number and that’s how I [11:04:00] would play around. Folks want us to do much more with bedding strategy. This would have been a fun race to talk about tickets. We don’t really unfortunately have time to do that, but I will ask you one final question. You know, you have to bet this race, obviously pretty big for the Pegasus contest.

Any thought about how you might approach it. Would you be willing to stone-cold fate accelerate? I think I probably will. And it’s probably, I probably will stone cold fatal, just cause I feel like that’s where the most value is going to lie. I mean, he’s going to be the favorite. He’s going to be bet. Um, especially, you know, he’s the classic winner, right?

I I’m going to try to beat him. And I would rather use city of light gun to Vera and an audible and hope that he doesn’t show up and have a ton of meat on the bone rather than have to bet a whole lot of money if I use him as well. You know what I mean? Absolutely. We’ve talked about that before in Dutch terms, adding a horse like accelerate, adding a big favorite, just cost so much money.

Adding a live long [11:05:00] shot percentage wise of the money you’re spending can be almost nothing depending on how big we’re talking about. Here’s the thing though, right? Don’t be stupid about it. I just don’t like the horse. If I liked him and he was the favorite, then that’s, that’s the, that’s the hand I’m dealt all I’ll work with it, but I don’t like them.

So I’m not going to use a six to five shot. I don’t like defensively when I’m trying to win a contest. You know, I just think that’s a, it that’s a, that’s a losing proposition in the longterm. I like it. All right. We gotta let you go. JK. Thank you so much. I kinda messed around with you busy day to day meeting with the folks that ask it this morning.

Hey, someday, I’ll just tease this now way too early to be talking about, but you know, listeners are like family. We’ll just keep it between us for now. Trying to talk about maybe having. Uh, not this year, but next year, alive bankroll contest at the Royal Ascott meeting, hoping that maybe we can bring over some podcast listeners and contest players to do that.

Would you play, dude? Are you kidding? Me? And I get fish and shit for them over there. [11:06:00] You’ll hear a lot of English accents too. I know you love those English accents, huge fan huge fan of, of the English accident. Um, Especially the one from like Manchester and liberal. You like those Northern girls? Huh?

Right. It’s like, it’s like another language.

There’s that great. ESPN ad. Have you ever seen the ESPN ad with the, uh, the Manchester city and Manchester United fans? Phenomenal. So great. Maybe I’ll maybe I’ll put that in the blog too, but the point was not to go on another five minute tangent we’re on fire today. JK, I’m supposed to let you go, go win this contest, make the podcast listeners proud.

Okay. Do my thing. I’ll see you later. See you later. And now we will bring in my chat from earlier this week with Acacia Courtney. And now I’d like to welcome to the, in the money players podcast for her debut appearance, long overdue Acacia Courtney, Acacia. How are you tonight? I’m [11:07:00] doing great, Pete, thanks so much for having me on.

Definitely since they we’ve, uh, been planning for a while. I want to start out with the obvious, a little bit of scene setting. We’re talking now in the middle of the week of Pegasus week. What’s the atmosphere like I know there have been industry types and betting types, descending on Gulf stream. Does it feel any different down there at the moment?

Oh, yeah. You might hear the chaos in the office behind me a little bit right now. It’s the end of the day on Wednesday, but I’m in the media office, which is great because we get to see people coming in, getting ready to cover the Pegasus and all excited about what’s going to happen on Saturday. Um, you really feel the, not only just the atmosphere of the people that are coming in, but just even some, um, some, uh, Entertainment opportunities this weekend and, and structures being built, signs being put up.

I mean, everything just looks great and I’m, and you can really tell that something is about to happen. I like it. Very [11:08:00] cool. I want to back up a little bit and ask you one of the questions we ask people during their first appearance on this show. How did you get involved in racing in the first place? Did you grow up as a fan or did you come to it later in life?

I guess I kind of came to racing a little bit later in life. Um, I’ve, I’ve told this story before and it’s kind of funny how things work out because my background was in horses, not in horse racing, but I grew up riding. I started riding around age eight and I did Hunter jumper and dressage. And when I.

Graduated high school because during high school dancing had really taken over my life. And, um, when I graduated, uh, high school, I started to end up going back to horses. And at that time I didn’t think I could make a career out of horses at all, but I started working with x-ray sources and ended up starting my own nonprofit.

I was 17 at the time when I started racing for home and we got five Oh one C3 status, then I would get horses off the track and try to get them a new [11:09:00] home. Um, And it really, I felt very inadequate, not being able to speak to people on the backside and to know anything about racing. So I started to teach myself to read the form and I would literally go on and Google, like what the symbols meant, what kind of things, because at first it can be very intimidating if you don’t know anything about racing when you open up the racing forum for the first time.

So I taught myself a lot and then I was lucky along the road to have some people that, um, helped me and gave me the opportunity to ask questions. But. From there. I kind of got sucked into racing as I started to learn more about it. And I’ve been really lucky with the opportunities that I’ve been given.

How much of the information you learned about equine physicality, but just being around horses growing up has helped you in your current role as an analyst. Oh, that’s huge because I’m familiar with horses. Um, physically, if you say I understand injuries and equipment [11:10:00] and, um, just overall attitude and mentality of courses, because I’ve had the experience being with them and working hands-on and I think that that’s been.

So helpful. And then especially now being in the paddock at Gulf stream park, I always say I try to give people information that they can’t necessarily find on paper. So I take extensive notes on all of the horses that I see in the flesh. And, um, that’s helpful if, if I see them mentored in a turf race in a couple of weeks, I can look back on my notes and say, Oh wow.

I made a note that I would like to see this horse on the turf. So sometimes that helps me get a good price. And, um, for that it’s been, it’s been huge because I am a very visual person. When people ask you as I’m sure they do me as somebody who dabbles in, uh, attempting to discern paddock information, what are you looking for?

How do you explain that to the novice? I think the very basic thing is that you want to see a horse that’s fit and healthy looking. Sometimes you might see first time starters or maybe a horse off of a [11:11:00] layoff that it looks like maybe they just need a little bit more muscle tone. They need a little bit more definition.

Maybe they’re getting a little bit hot and that’s that’s sometimes could be very normal, but especially in those kinds of situations, if you see a horse that just looks like they are really fit, they have a healthy, shiny coat. They look like they’re. Not showing any sort of nervous energy. That really is a plus.

Now of course, courses are like people and they’re going to have their own personalities and their own different kinds of attitudes. So some horses, for instance, like Preakness, winter, Shackleford, it was normal for him to get really sweaty before the race. And a lot of his offspring are like that too. So that’s something that you start to take into account, but at the basis, I look for a fit and healthy looking horse.

Sounds perfect. Now you’re no stranger to competition yourself in terms of the, uh, the beauty pageant stuff that you’ve been doing now for a number of years. Has there been anything from that arena that you’ve been [11:12:00] able to apply in looking at horses? Strange question, but I, that maybe there’s something here.

I think so, honestly. Um, you know, sometimes that’s the very basic level, I guess, in the paddock early is a little bit of a, of a beauty pageant. Well, it’s kind of a similar thing. You only have a few minutes to make a good impression. Um, and I get somebody to bet on you. So there are a few parallels in that respect, but more than anything, I think my involvement in pageantry is really just, it’s opened so many doors for me.

And it’s made me a much more. I think it’s really helped me in, in speaking abilities and, um, interview and speaking on camera and in front of people, it’s really given me a lot of experience in that respect, but it’s really made me a much more, I think, confident and well-rounded woman, which is. Which has helped me in my career in general and just in daily life and all the things that pageantry given me, I’ve been able to bring into my involvement in [11:13:00] horse racing, uh, and pretty much everything that I do.

It’s still something that you’re obviously active in. And it sounds like it’s been enriching in your life. Give us a little bit of an update as far as what’s been going on in that realm. Well, just a couple of weeks ago, I won the title of miss Connecticut USA, which is incredibly exciting. Thank you. So next step for me is I’ll copy at the miss USA pageant.

They haven’t announced yet when or where it will be, but I’ll certainly keep everybody updated because I’ve just gotten a tremendous amount of support from the entire racing community, which I’m so grateful for. Um, and if I win with USA, which is the, you had a dream. Then I would go on to miss universe.

So it’s really the big time if you will. Very, very cool. Let’s talk a little bit about the specifics of what’s coming up this weekend. We’ve got a host of stakes races highlighted of course, by the Pegasus world cup itself. Is there a particular horse you’re looking forward to see run [11:14:00] this weekend? Well, of course, I’m looking for both of them, Pegasus races in the Pegasus world, cup, dirt, and turf.

Um, I’ve always been a big sheet of fan, so I’m really looking forward to seeing him in the turf. He’ll likely be the favorite, but I think one of the undercard races that’s really going to be interesting is the Gulf stream park, her friend, we have world of trouble and stormy liberal going to rematch alter what I think.

Was one of the races of the year, for sure. In the breeders’ cup turf sprint, they both come back and run once since then, world of trouble, just monumental win on the dirt on the wet track at Tampa and stormy liberal second into grade three last time out. But these are two horses that they’ve just been in such good form.

And just the show that they put on embryos cup weekend, I’m really looking forward to seeing them. And then you’ve got a couple of other good horses in there too. You’ve got paying any price. You had a disappointing effort last year. Hi, I’m out, but you’ve got a ton of backlash as well. Um, and recruiting, ready a little bit of the wild card on the outside, [11:15:00] trying the turf.

I mean, it’s a really interesting race, but that rematch between those two horses, I’m really looking forward to it is cool. You know, the turf sprint division, not a historically strong division in the United States, and it’s nice to see. It getting a little bit more of its due and to be able to renew a rivalry like that a couple of months after, uh, certainly something that I think a lot of racing fans and HorsePlayers are gonna have their eyes peel bond, even with all that quality at the top of the card, you mentioned Yoshida, he’s been a horse, of course, that we’ve talked about on this show V since his very first race, can’t wait to see how he’s doing.

Have you had a chance to see him in the. Flash over the last few days, or are you, is that something you’re looking forward to doing this weekend? No, I haven’t gotten a chance to see him. I took a trip up to pace and park just the other day to speak to trainer Belmont. Um, but out many morning, if we can, uh, averaging not that much sleep, but [11:16:00] it’s certainly worth it and getting ready.

I think everybody that’s ever covered a big racing event, whether it’s Pegasus for Derby breeders cup. Triple crown races, whatever it is, knows that feeling and it’s definitely worth it. So it took a trip up to pacing and got a chance to see Yoshida. And I learned a little bit more about him as a horse too, which is always interesting to me, especially as we talked about being visual and knowing horses on a physical level, um, that he, he can’t be a little bit mouthy.

He, it gets you biased. So thankfully, uh, Bill’s assistant trainer, Cody kind of brought them out for us and I mean, he looks great and the good horses you can tell, they, they know, they know that they’re good. They have that level of confidence to them and just kind of a self-assuredness. And I remember, um, Steve asked us in saying this last year about gun runner and comparing Yoshi.

She did a gun runner of course is a huge thing, but, but I, I just think that’s a trait of the really good [11:17:00] horses. And I think Yoshida really has that too. Um, but it’s a, it’s an interesting race. I’m really intrigued in fact, by the two Japanese horses in there because she is Japanese bread. And we also have arrow lists the mayor coming in from Japan and she just looked great.

This, these last couple of days, since she shipped in. Got a chance to see her in person go over the track. She’s carried her condition really well. She’s a sucker lovely movement quality, uh, and she’s, she’s done some really good things in Japan as well. Absolutely big form coming over and getting a lot of weight as well.

Right. Yeah, it be very interesting to see how the betting market reacts there. Obviously with our parimutuel system, we’ll see, I had seen them overseas as co favorites at around seven to two, but we’ll, we’ll see what the actual betting does when it comes down to this time for the inaugural Pegasus turf, going to be very exciting.

So I’ve got to hold your feet to the fire. Now about the big race. Have you, uh, I [11:18:00] assume you’ve had time to look over the form. Have you, do you have a strong opinion when it comes to the big one on Saturday? Well, it’s, it’s a race. I said I really stressed about and accelerate. I have to say, prove me dead wrong in the breeders cup classic last time out.

Um, as I was going through those breeders cup races, and I had a great breeders cup weekend and it was really happy with it. Well, some of the prices that I got and some of the picks that I had, but accelerate was one that I was dead wrong about from that outside post, I was really concerned about the trip that he was going to get.

I thought he was running against a really good field, and again, he proved me dead wrong. Now that doesn’t mean that I’m not going to, um, I don’t know how smart this makes me basically look, but I’m. Not going to try to beat him again, because I am going to try to beat him. And I’m going to try to beat him with city of light, because I thought a city of light paddock school the other day.

And he is just a physically imposing, impressive looking [11:19:00] horse. And I have no qualms with him going a distance of ground. I think that he is the type of force that he’s one for one at the nine for a long. And in fact, that’s. The distance in the Oakland at which he beat accelerate in the past and accelerates coming off of four grade one victories take absolutely nothing away from him.

He the incredible horse and had done some great things for good people in his connection. Um, but city of light, I don’t think he’s a need the lead type. And I see this race as potentially having a very quick pace. There’s definitely speed to the outside with pattern recognition and that tough outside draw.

He’s going to have to go. And it’s a very short run into the first turn at the myelin and eighth distance at golf stream. So I see city of light getting a good break, getting into a good spot heavier Castillano knows this horse, and he knows this track very well and the importance, the importance of trying to get a good trip and to save some ground and he can stalk if need be.

And he’s been so game, um, I think he’s a horse that’s really coming into his own and he’s going to be [11:20:00] my cockpit. And I think he’s going to get a good trip here in the Pegasus woke up dirt. I like it. It is going to come down, I think, to a bit of a cat and mouse game with accelerate and city of light, both wanting that same kind of trip.

Yeah. I see it as a coin toss. And if you’re going to give me a coin toss and one of the horses is going to be, uh, almost twice the price in the, in the coin toss, which I imagine is how it will be between those two. Give me the longer price I’m with you. City of light for me in the Pegasus, but it’s a fun race from a sporting point of view, going to be interesting also to see the, how it works out in the contest, the Pegasus contest, all those folks descending, and it’s going to probably be decided on this race.

That looks rather straightforward on paper for you as an analyst, would you, do you prefer a situation where you can bring a strong opinion to a big race like the Pegasus, or would you prefer a more wide open race as an analyst where you maybe get to try to pick something clever at a longer price [11:21:00] point?

Well, sometimes those races are really fun. I mean, you look at a race last year, like the package distance and gun runner. I mean, he just what he had accomplished and how he had performed. Um, and I think the year before that it was, it was of course between California Chrome and irrigate, and I stressed over that performance do and ended up.

Picking aggregate then, um, the post position draw made that a little bit easier too, but sometimes you have these races that look so straight forward on paper, and then they’re, they’re a little bit more fun to try to figure out what’s going to happen underneath. I mean, you’ve got a horse, like Gunawirra, who’s going to be closing late.

Uh, he loves this track here at Gulf stream. He’ll be a bit of a price, but I think people are starting to catch on to him a little bit now because he keeps hitting the board in these big races. Um, But for me, the wide open betting races, I think are probably the more, the more fun ones. So the undercard races are really good too.

I think there’s a lot of value opportunities. Yeah. There, we have some big [11:22:00] fields on the turf, which always makes for some good value. And, um, like I said, in the turf, I’m all in on Yoshida, but I’m looking for some prices underneath in there as well. And it’s the big two and the dirt, but I’m going to try to take the one.

That’s going to be a little bit of a bigger price. Sounds fair to me. All right. I’ve kept you about as long as I said I was going to, but I can’t let you get out of here without turning the tables on you from a lot of people have commented, uh, on the very fun bit we did at the breeders’ cup where you read the line.

And we had to guess whether it was from 50 shades of gray. Or the comment lines in the daily racing forum. I have racked my brains to come up with a very difficult one to throw at you. I hope you’ll forgive me this also, uh, this also fulfills the goal of a new segment we’re doing on this new independent podcast.

It’s called too hot for DRF. We want to do a couple of things that we probably couldn’t have gotten away with. On the old show. I think this bit, which we alluded to [11:23:00] on the old show, but didn’t go into too much detail falls into that category. It’s very simple. Acacia, it’s one word you have to guess if it’s from 50 shades of gray or from the pages of daily racing forum.

I’m tryna kiss, uh, daily racing forum. Right. I actually saw that in a comment line a few days after we did our bit, and I said, I’m going to keep this one in my back pocket, but that is great. That is great. Now I thought good one. Um, it’s in the 10th race tomorrow, actually. Um, it’s not a 50 shades, perhaps half breasts.

Perhaps the reference, but it is a very clever short comment. And it’s a horse that won by 11 lengths last time out for Jason service named my big Italian friend. And the short comment is just multiples. I love it. When the chart callers are having fun, we’re all having fun. Exactly. Exactly. Acacia. Thank you so much.

I know [11:24:00] it’s an insane week. Really appreciate you taking time out to check in with us. Let’s do it again soon when we can talk a little bit longer, but, uh, thanks for coming on the show and have a great weekend out there. Thanks so much. And that’s going to do it for this episode of the, in the money players podcast.

I’d like to thank Acacia Courtney. One more time. I’d like to thank Jonathan. Kenshin squeezing us in, in the midst of his busy travel schedule. Shout out to DJ on stable, even though he wasn’t there. When I needed him today, I think I got it figured out. You will be the judge of that. Most of all. I want to thank all of you, the listeners for your ongoing support.

Check us out in the money Go ahead and follow us on iTunes. Leave us a review. If you’re feeling particularly generous, subscribe wherever you can, let’s keep this thing rocking and rolling for eons to come. And we’ll have a big party. When we get to more shows on this feed than we had on the old one. We’ve [11:25:00] got a few to go, but I think we just might get there. That’s it for me, we will be back early next week to recap the weekend. I’m Peter. Thomas . May you win all your photos.

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  • I’m think I’m a somewhat knowable handicapper. I’d say novice+ level. With so many books out there can you recommmend books to get started with (like a beginners handbook) and once proficient books you would recommend for more advanced strategies?

    I enjoy the sport very much, but want to cash more tickets!!

    • I think the Mike Maloney book I cowrote would be perfect. I might even have one lying around here to sell you directly if you’re interested. Private message me if so.

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