Show #34: Thursday, April 18 (Dawn Lupul et al.)

Great show for you with lots of guests. First up, JK, Sean Boarman and PTF talk about some of the news of the day. Then, PTF and JK talk about Keeneland Saturday and give a quick word about the Charles Town Classic. Then we hear from Brandon Leigh about the start of the Lone Star meet (including a rocking good contest opportunity), and we close out with Dawn Lupul previewing the Woodbine meet.


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***Please note this was done with AI and likely contains errors and inaccuracies. ***

Hey party people PTF here. And I wanted to let you know about a very cool event I’m doing with our friends at America’s best racing in the money podcast. Listeners get a $5 discount on attending the America’s best racing pre Preakness party. The event will take place on the Wednesday of Preakness week.

That’s May 15th at 7:00 PM at the Mount Washington Tavern. 5,700 Newbury street in Baltimore, Maryland. To get tickets very simple. You go to event You search for the America’s best racing pre Preakness party. You click on the event to purchase tickets. And then when checking out you apply the discount code.

I T M pod going to be a great party, lots of cool food and drink. There’s also a door prize and a silent auction for charity going to have a little handicapping seminar as well with me. The great Gabby God debt. And we’re also going to have Sean Tougaloo of WinStar farm. Joining in should be a lot of fun.

And we hope to see you there to get that discount. Just apply the code ITM pod. When you check for the America’s best racing pre Ms. Party,

your listening to the, in the money players podcast.

Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is show number 34. It is Thursday, April 18th. I’m your host Peter Thomas for to tell back with you in the Brooklyn bunker. Once again, we have. The usual cohost on this program here he is calling in from Lexington, lots of travel for this man this week and every week it seems he is itinerant, but that’s just part of why we love him.

So he’s the people’s champion, Jonathan kitchen. What’s up JK. PTF. What’s the word? Yeah. I’m uh, I’m I’m all over the place. I’ve I’m uh, it’s uh, something gets me going about going through TSA. Pre-check I don’t know what it is, but it’s, uh, gives me a shot of adrenaline. So I’m, I’m a, I’m an adrenaline junkie.

What can I say? So you are TSA. Pre-check end clear. You do both. And if they only, if they came out with something else, I’d take that too. Yep. Look, it makes all the difference in the world at the Austin airport. I am not kidding you. If my flight leaves at 5:00 PM, I can get to the airport at four 36 and I’m good.

That’s because they have clear precheck alone would not do that. No, because the, I can get a little bit wonky sometimes because they, they do this thing where they give it to random people, which I’m not really a fan of. And then there are obviously the people that are standing there trying to figure it out there.

So let’s take their jacket off or not. Or what do they do with their laptop? Like get out of the way. This sounds like, this sounds like the story where you met Ryan Flanders at the horseplayer world series years ago and caught him in line at the bedding machine. Well, he, Ryan has a place in this world and it’s right behind me.

Sure. He’ll appreciate that. And now I’d actually like to bring in for what I believe is his maiden voyage on this show. He’s a crusty old veteran on the Keeland select players podcast, but he’s new to this heir. He is Lexington based professional player. Sean Boardman. Sean, how are you today?

Hello. I’m doing great. Thanks for having me on. Excellent. I should mention so much stuff going on this week. We’ll start off with a couple of programming notes and the first one has to do with our all new Niara bets late pick five podcast. Aha, J K. That’s what we were forgetting when we were doing our rare production meeting off air before, about when we’d originally booked Thursday, nine to 11, we were going to record that show as well.

You might not be available for that one, but I do have Paul Matisse at the ready. So perhaps there’ll be an able substitute we’ll figure out if we could get you in there as well. Uh, turning over some rocks, coming up with some sort of solution, but the Niara bet show. I’ll be there and it’s going to be a lot of fun.

Look for that in the, in the money players podcast feed, we’ll be tweeting that out. We also want to underline the importance of participating in this game that we have going on on Saturday. There’s going to be alive. Broadcast, accompany it. All for the benefit of the thoroughbred retirement foundation, and it’s going to happen on Derby Wars.

I’ll send out the specifics of the live broadcast later, but basically from four to six ish, it’s going to be the late pick four at Keelan and aqueduct. We’re going to build around those and we’re going to do this game for charity, 125 to play. We’re hoping it will be about a $5,000 cash game. Every penny of that $25 is going to go to thoroughbred retirement foundation JK.

In addition to joining me on the air, is this a game you’re going to be playing it I’d imagine. So if I’m going to be pretty, if I’m going to be participating on there, I might as well get down and, and, uh, what a good cause this is. And in this day and age where. Where takeout gets everyone all fired up.

This takeout is going to our, our four legged friends and, uh, the humans that, uh, that are, that are along the ride with them and their next career. So, uh, definitely something that everybody can get behind regardless of, uh, Of their mood and the takeouts undeniably and deliberately high for the game. You know, we were thinking of it almost like a, you know, in a 50, 50 raffle, nobody complains about the 50% takeout.

We didn’t go as high as 50% here, but it is 125, but we figure people will, will give us a pass because it’s for charity. And the whole point is to raise money for charity. It’s not supposed to be setting up, uh, opportunities for advantage players, but price sensitive people. If you listen in time, you can play in those feeders.

For 0% takeout. We did want to offer that option for the lower bank role players and people who are sensitive to that type of thing. You’ve got that option as well. Sean, can we twist your arm to play in the TRF Derby Wars charity game on Saturday. Absolutely. I’m a big, big fan of note takeout donated.

Take out. Yeah, there you go. I don’t, I don’t want to misrepresent, but yeah, donated takeout. It’s like you’re giving to charity here, so good. Well, we’ll look. Forward to seeing your name on that leaderboard. I’ve already booked two guests. What may end up being somewhat of a co-host Dave good Freud is in to participate in the broadcast and Steve Beck from Churchill downs.

We’ll carve out a few minutes to join us. So I’m envisioning it as, uh, something that’s going to be a really fun show. If you’re playing any way, Sean will have to drag you into the mix as well. This is going to be a pretty unusual show where we’re going to talk for a while longer, a little bit later, we’re going to bring in some guests, Brandon Lee from lone star park is here.

He’s going to talk about their contest program, Jake. Hey, I don’t think you’re able to stick around for that part of the interview. So why don’t we give a little bit of extra love to lone star and why don’t you talk about their contest program a little bit and how important it is to you and your contest playing year.

Well, it’s absolutely a Lonestar park has a special place in my heart to everyone talks about their first time to the racetrack Lonestar park was my first time. Um, my father, we we’ve talked about it before. My father is a, uh, is a, is a guy who enjoys a nice slot machine and they don’t have slot machines in Texas.

And so he, uh, decided that, uh, his version of the slot machine would be going to lone star Thursday, Friday and Sunday. And, uh, in playing our address. And so that was, uh, that was my introduction to the race track. And so I love lone star. It’s, uh, I get excited when I think about it. There’s two different ways to get there.

You can exit BeltLine from Irby. You can go. Through Arlington and I in trying to decide which one that was the first vet you made all day, which one was going to have the least amount of traffic. Um, it’s a beautiful facility. Um, obviously, uh, uh, hosted the breeders cup. My first breeders’ cup I ever went to was there.

Didn’t hit a race all day, doing what I was looking at. Um, great dining room upstairs, silks. I mean, I loved the place and their, their contests. Um, Brandon’s done a great job. Uh, fighting for the contest players, a lot of the rules, because I won’t get into that. It made it kind of complicated for Brandon too, to kind of expand that series.

And he’s finally got it to a place now where he can do that. It’s a thousand dollar live money contest. He’s going to be talking about, I believe on the 28th, I’m very excited to be there for that to play in the contest, but also. Um, I’m pretty sure I’m going to be doing Fox from there. Fox sports is going to be doing, uh, the Sexton mile that day.

We’ll be broadcasting that live. So a very fun, full circle opportunity for me to, uh, the, the place where I was trying to steal, you know, 10 bucks from my dad’s pocket so that he wouldn’t lose it, uh, to bet on something, to, uh, hosting a, the Fox sports thing and playing in a live money contest. And you were also talking about maybe doing a seminar one of those days.

Do you know which day that is? No, I, we had mentioned it to Brandon. We’re not sure. I’m not sure exactly which one it is, but if, if, uh, Brandon can pull it off, uh, I will be there a hundred percent. We’ll talk to him a little bit later in the show brand that he’ll give all the details about the upcoming contest.

I believe it’s a thousand dollar live bankroll, but you’ll hear all about that in short order. Also a little bit later in the show. I don’t think I’ve ever said the name winks on these airwaves, which kind of feels like an oversight, but, you know, we don’t always have time to do a lot when it comes to international racing, but in the wake of her fantastic career seemed only appropriate to have somebody on.

And Hey, I just happened to work with one of the world’s foremost winks experts on the sky sports racing airwaves. Very recently, Tim Carroll. So Tim’s going to be here and we’re going to talk a little bit of winks coming up. I have a few other notes in the notebook here to get to, I thought it was pretty cool.

The other day, JK, the racing news that came down early Saturday morning, that the first American Pharaoh baby to hit the track was a winning one for AP. This was an aide. No Brian trainee. Oh, I’m spacing on the name. Maybe you have it at the ready. Um, um, Guys it’s Monarch Egypt. Ah, Brian, this is why we have a professional on the show from what it’s on turf.

It doesn’t count. Let’s see what happens when we get the first dirt winner, uh, running on Wednesday, running it today in a couple of hours. You say that time machine. Exactly. But that will have happened by the time this show airs. He may have had another winter. We will wait and see questions for each of you.

JK I’ll ask you, you have a lot of friends in the Bloodstock business. What are you hearing about these American Pharaoh babies? Are you look forward looking forward to wagering on them or do you feel like they might have some undue attention because of their famous daddy? Your thoughts on that? My favorite thing to do is just like use phrases from like an industry that I don’t really know a lot about, but, but to still, but I say these phrases to make it seem like I know what I’m saying, a very athletic correct horses that are, uh, American federal really stamped his progeny here.

Um, I really don’t know. I’ve heard good things or they’re athletic. I’ve heard they’re correct. Um, efficient looking types and that’s kinda what he was, right. I mean, he was an athletic. Uh, efficient horse and that’s why he was as great as he was. That reminds me of the time that you and I walked into the announcer booth at Monmouth.

You’re going to be hearing a whole lot about Monmouth on this show. And in fact, the man who features in the story is going to be one of our first guests to talk about mob. And that’s Frank muira body. We walked into Frank’s booth and we had the kids with us. And he got one look at you. And one look at Austin who does to be fair, look like a mini you and his line was GJ.

K you sure. You sure do stamp your offspring? Absolutely. That’s one thing I’ve done right in this world. All right, Sean. My question for you is a little bit different. It has to do with your approach to first year stallions in general. Is this something that you follow to try to give you a little bit of an angle into these two year old races or does it very quickly get priced into the market when a first-year stallion is doing well?

And do you look at other things or even tend to pass these early season two year old races? What do you think. Well, I think you’re setting me up to fail here in my first appearance. Pedigree is by far the weakest link in my game. Um, I don’t follow it. I don’t pay much attention to it. Um, so I don’t have a great answer about.

Uh, American Pharaoh as a sire. And you know, what I typically do is just wait until they started running and evaluate them after the fact, instead of projecting forward, because I’m just no good at it. Well, that’s more, what I meant is how quickly will you notice? Let’s say a first time started, let’s say Pharaoh, by the time this is air, it already has his first two winners.

Will you start looking at that and looking to bet or include these Pharaoh runners or does your lack of. Knowledge slash interest in the breeding side of the game, mean you’re more likely to pass these two year old races altogether. No, once I’ve seen a few of them run and have figures come back for them and start to get a feel for the ability of the offspring.

I will pay more attention to the ciders. But before that, I just don’t. I just don’t pay any attention to it. Cause I have no idea what I’m looking at and no idea what to look for. So you’ll be passing these races the first two year old races of the year. You will not get a dime of yours. It sounds like not unless it’s, uh, you know, in some very interesting pick four sequence and I’ve got.

Some little angle to try to get through that leg. You know, if there’s a Wendling war to T1 for a couple of I’ll use those and go on with life. But yeah, otherwise I just typically pass. Fair enough. Did you have another thought on that? Yeah, just for me, people, when it comes to these baby races, I’m either a pass or a single right.

I’m not really interested in like, And, and, and, and it’s either, there’s a lot of workout information and buzz about a horse that it’s a two year old baby. So no one’s going to go nuts over typically. And you can sometimes find some value in the multi race pools because a lot of times. No one knows anything.

Right? Little, little John Snow. You don’t have nothing jobs. Now they may end up spreading in these races because they don’t have any form. Right? So they start playing statistics names, they recognize pedigrees, they recognize, and they start just kind of guessing and hoping, and they’re not doing it efficiently.

So to me, there is meat to be, there is meat on the bone. If you can kind of narrow based on some facts that you do have while everyone else is reaching question for you, Sean. Um, cause I know this is an angle you’ve paid attention to over the years. I first learned of it in the Mike baloney book bedding with an edge.

He pays a lot of attention. I know generally in maiden races to what he calls over-producing dams. In other words, Dams who’ve dropped horses. Who’ve run well, either winners or fast numbers and believes that it isn’t fully priced into the pedigree. Does that apply in these early two year olds, maiden races, as much as it does with the more typical maiden races late in the two year old year and throughout the three-year-old year, do you still think that’s worth looking at at the four and a half Furlong distance?

Yeah, I do. I think, I think Mike’s absolutely right. That it’s not a hundred percent priced in so that you know anything, that’s not hundred percent pricing, it gives you an edge. So I think it does matter, especially if you can go and find out that. You know, a mayor that’s dropped four winners and three of them were in short two year old races and showed good early speed.

Then that’s something you can really work with. Absolutely. That’s another thing to potentially look at. That’s I feel like that’s a frequently asked question with people who’ve maybe bend to the track a time or two, but are looking for more information and they’ll say these main races, what are you looking at?

And I think if you’re in a position where you can look at the dams progeny. That’s a potential way to get an edge still, even if you’re very new to the game. So I did want to get that point out there. The next thing on the list to talk about are these changes to the Churchill downs, wagering menu, Derby day.

We’ve got one that I think we can give a thumbs up. And one, I personally, at least I’m going to give a thumbs down to we’ll start with the slight bit of negativity before working our way back to the positivity. So they’re going to do these head-to-head wagers and. They’re doing the pair of mutually, which I guess is a technological limitation, but they’re also doing them with 17.5% takeout, which equates basically to laying what one 60 on.

Assuming, uh, an even proposition, this is bad pricing folks. And you and I I’ve argued about this in the past JK where you said, Oh, the pricing doesn’t matter that much. We got to get these bets out there in the world. You know, I disagree. I feel like if you put a bet out there, With pricing. That’s so bad that it’s destined to fail.

You’re doing a disservice to people like us who want to see these type of bets because they’re not going to do well. And then people will be all too happy to throw out the baby with the bath water as it were. I love the idea that they’re doing head to heads, but at the least they need to be priced minimally.

And at the most. You know, I mean, I know I’m asking racing to invest in technology, something we’ve seen how that’s gone over the years, but if you could invest in technology in a way where you could offer fixed price, low rate bats, you could really have something here. You could have a new way, an easier way, a more straightforward way for people, especially people coming from the sports betting world to learn our game and love our game and continue to develop and get.

More passionate about horse racing. It makes me a little frustrated that we can’t do that or can’t do any semblance of it. Am I being too negative? We’ll start with you JK. Well, no, I don’t. I don’t think you’re being too negative and, and, and yes, I, I was wrong about that argument, but let me explain my argument and, but I was wrong.

The point is, is that I, I feel like in this industry and in most industries, If you can just get someone to open their mind a little bit, and you can have a little bit of success with getting them to open their mind for something that you suggested, or you have an idea about, then you can get them to trust you and push them further to where you need to be, rather than asking them for that one kind of extreme, which is like low takeout.

You’re never going to get it. Then you’re never going to get anywhere with them. I get what you’re saying though. And it’s unfortunate that, that, that the, you know, the roulette bet and all these other things are not going to do well. And they’re never going to grow because their pricing is wrong. So that’s what I was incorrect about.

The, the, the, the awful pricing will prevent it from ever really getting any traction and you being proven, right. Uh, to get more out of it. Um, I’m a believer in these bets. I think they’re fun. I mean, I love head to heads. I think they’re the most, one of the most fun vets you can have in racing. I think they’re, they’re a ton of fun, but, uh, at 17 and a half percent, minus one 67, I think is what, the information that inside the pylons put up with exactly what it would be, that, that that’s not very good.

And you can’t really do that. Um, so yeah, it’s unfortunate. I’m glad it’s weird. Cause I’m glad that they’re trying to innovate. I’m glad they’re trying to do new things. I just wish they would. Bring someone to the table to tell them, Hey, you can’t do that. And then I wish they could take the bet to a commission that understood that I understand there’s rules in place that make it have to be 17.5%, but like, let’s change those rules.

Yeah, fair enough. Now, Sean, I don’t think we left much meat on the bone here. So you can answer this with one word or you can use it as a jumping off point for a proper answer, but here’s how I’ll ask the question. How many dollars do you project to handle all these head to heads at 17 and a half percent?

I’ll bet. $0 on the heads of head. That was the answer I was expecting. Well, you know, I agreed to take out a, too high on this particular bet, but I also agree with Jonathan’s initial point that anything that can get somebody interested in the game is a good sense. And I’ll give you an example. I have a very good friend of mine who 10 years ago.

Was like the one person in my friend group that didn’t really bet on anything. You know, most of them are betting on sports and they’d come keen when in bed. And this guy just didn’t bet much. But when they rolled out 10 cent supers, he got a little interested in that because it was a bet he could make for very little money and have a good time and enjoy his day at the races with a little bit of action.

And he didn’t know. What the takeout was. He didn’t care what the takeout was, but he enjoyed it. And now he bet almost every day and he doesn’t bet a lot of money, but he’s always betting on something. He’ll always text me and say, you know, I’ve got the dollar picture. You lie the aqueduct, you know what there’s room in this game for people like that.

And some would argue that we need more people like that. So I don’t think necessarily every single bet and every single idea. Has to be blasted because the takeout is bad. You know, there is a place for, you know, what we would consider a silly little bet that might draw some more people and get them interested in the game.

You know, a head to head bed on Derby weekend. That’s a lot less daunting to most people than trying to sift through 20 horses in the Derby or 14 in the Oaks and make a play. So I just don’t think it’s as big a deal as it’s. Being portrayed to be on racing Twitter. Wow. I mean, I made a lot of those same points, I mean, and I mean, uh, that the racing Twitter was making and I think I know the difference and the difference is I feel like with that pricing on the head-to-head, it’s a perfect contrast with your superfecta example because.

When you hit that bet and you get back so little, you risk your one 61 to get a hundred it’s. And in reality, you’re probably risking, you know, a hundred to get. Now. PTF tries math fails, 67, whatever it is, it. You’re winning so little it’s like, Whoa. It really, it brings into relief. How much of a worst deal when you’re talking about a head to head that theoretically with a 50% chance of hitting, it brings into relief.

How far racing is behind sports betting that people are familiar with now where it works for the superfecta. Even if the takeout was theoretically a little bit too high when that came in or now, or whenever is at least you’re betting a little to wit a lot. And maybe it does matter less, I guess at the end of the day, I think these are both good points and it’s great news that we don’t have to choose between innovation and the best pricing we can offer.

The fact is we need both. Innovation and the best pricing we can offer. And that is the perfect segue to the good news part of these announcements from Churchill. J K, I’m going to let you tell the people about it. Well, this is exciting. I’ve, I’ve always, uh, you know, I’ve even, we’ve even talked about the breeders’ cup of doing it across a day, uh, larger, you know, they got to pick three, we thought about maybe even a cross state pick four.

Uh, maybe across day pick five or pick six. Uh, but Churchill is announced that they’re going to be doing a 15% takeout cross day, pick six. Um, and that’s exciting with all the grade ones. I believe the grade ones. I’m going to try to go off the top of the head here. We’ll go LA Troy in on Friday, which is the grade one for the older Phillies.

America’s going to turns on the dirt. We’ve got the Kentucky Oaks. Doesn’t need an introduction. Churchill downs, sprint the six for a long grade one for the boys, a the, the, the, uh, the turf classic, uh, the Yoshida one last year to visit arrows one a few times, like to get him back in there, the Kentucky Derby.

And I’m missing one because it is the Distaff seven, seven furlongs. Yeah. Absolutely. And we’ll, we’ll, we’ll give love to Churchill sponsor old Forester of the turf classic this year. We’ll throw that. We’ll throw that out there. Hopefully here’s the teas. Hopefully not the last whiskey brand. You’re going to be hearing mentioned on this show in the next few months, but we’ll, we’ll, we’ll give them their propers for that 15% cross day pick six.

I think it sounds interesting, Sean, as a pro player, what are your thoughts about this one? I think it’s very interesting and I love the $2 minimum increment too, instead of the 20 cent deal. Um, I think it gives you an opportunity to play six really nice races and then possibly make a score. Your opposition to the 20, 20 cent minimum, which we share.

I took me a long time to come around to, to, to this, that the low minimums actually have the opposite effect of what they’re intended to do. And in some ways, but I’m just curious to get your explanation of why you prefer the two, $2 to the 20 cents. You know, honestly, I’m not hugely opposed to the 20 cent minimums.

I do think it gives. Players that don’t have huge bankrolls and opportunity to hit a fixed six. Um, we won’t get into the daily take out of the damn mandatory pay out thing. I like the $2 minimums because it, because it costs more to play. I think it forces me to focus more in my handicap. I feel like. I personally tend to spread too much in the 20 cent ones, just because I can afford to.

And it, it, it leads to less efficient play. So the $2 ones you’ve got to come up with a single or two. And that to me is just a more, a more efficient way to play the bet. That’s really interesting. I’ve never thought about it that way. And it makes absolute sense in my head when you say it. The other thing about a cross day bet is I wonder if you won’t see as much of the sort of computer money that floods pools bedding efficiently in, I’ve noticed some of these cross-country bets, it seems like there’s a little bit more meat on the bone in terms of what the payout is relative to the wind parlay of the horses involved.

I wonder if it wouldn’t be the same anyway, with the cross day situation. And then you throw in the fact that you have to bet $2. The biggest players don’t have the opportunity to bet it super efficiently as we’ve seen, which I believe is the leading factor in how the equity has been drained out of a bet, especially like the pick for JK.

What do you think of this? Will you be participant? Oh, absolutely. I can’t wait for this. And I, you know, I guess the one negative, but I, I don’t think it’s, uh, What’s that phrase you, I say it’s more of, it’s not a bug. It’s a bits of what, what’s the, what’s your frame feature. There we go. It’s not a bug. It’s a feature, but it’s spread out over two days and there’s weather concerns.

Um, obviously that’s a problem with, if you’ve ever been to the Derby every morning, you wake up, you never know what you’re going to get. Uh, it could be raining one day. Beautiful. The next it could be raining in the fourth. Beautiful. And the seventh. So that obviously is an issue, but I kind of, I kind of like the mystery that that is, and it kind of makes it a little bit more fun and it makes it a little bit more exciting and makes you have to take into account a couple more things now.

If this bet takes off, I would strongly encourage Churchill to be the leader in figuring out this alternate situation that I feel like in, in 2019, we need to have, I shouldn’t be stuck with a, with a, with a scratch situation and getting double th that the, there, there should be a way to have some type of alternate situation.

Maybe have a play where, uh, you can have it all, uh, on the turf for an off the turf where you can kind of adjust and change. After your bed is already in. So, uh, hopefully if this picks up, like, I hope that it will now there’ll be an opportunity to, uh, to, for Churchill and CDI to take the lead on getting that technology issue resolved.

Just to explain exactly what you mean. This one, JK, I don’t even, I don’t even think it’s technology. I think there is a way to do it. It just isn’t typically done. If you’re in the middle of a longer pick sequence and you get a scratch current rules, have it go to the post time. Favorite with JK is suggesting is that if you’re betting on track, you’d have maybe a card to fill out or online.

Hopefully there’d be an easy way to do this. Like there isn’t tournament sites where you could choose an alternate horse, if your horse is scratched because especially over two days, that’s, that would be a very unpleasant reality to deal with a late scratch. I mean, I can’t envision the world in which the old Forester, uh, turf classic comes off the turf, but that’s a fair point as well, especially if these type of bets become more common.

These are definitely things that need to be looked at, right. But I will say this, and I know Shawn probably remembers this, but point of entry was supposed to run against wise Dan and scratched the day of, because of the soft ground. That would be a huge problem for a horseplayer, especially like I would have singled point of entry that day, which I would have been okay.

Because I would’ve got wise. They had anyone anyways, but, uh, just the changing of the surface. It can, it can be enough to get on the right grade one types to change. Yeah. I don’t know how you fix that one though. Um, if, uh, I mean, I guess you could just have an alternate or, I mean, it’d be interesting to have a, the they’re not going to let you, like, just take your money back if the horse scratches that that was that one’s not going to happen.

I don’t think, I mean, though, I guess there could be some sort of constellation built. That’d be cool. It’d be cool. If there was a refund button that said if there’s a, if there was an alternate button that was refund. So if my seven horse scratches. Can I just have my money back. I don’t want, I don’t want more on the post time.

Favorite. I don’t, maybe I don’t want another horse. Like, it seems unlikely. They’re going to let you do that. Like in the real world. But they should do it. Yeah, you’re probably right. I mean, then you could also have it. You could also do it where you portion it out as a, as a constellation, I suppose. But anyway, these are deep down the rabbit hole conversations for another time.

The fact is we’re excited about these bets. Speaking of things, to be excited about for HorsePlayers and contest players, specifically Derby weekend, we’ve got the Kentucky Derby betting challenge a lot. Of the focus of the contest world with the grade one gamble in the rear view, we’ll start to be looking at that event.

I believe still waiting on the info, but I believe to It’s going to be running some qualifiers for it. I know JK will be playing, looking to redeem himself after last year’s debacle. And that’s a contest that well healed HorsePlayers should really be taking a look at. It’s quite possible, depending on what your opinions are.

If you’re going to be betting that much through the course of the day, you should think about doing it in the context of the contest and playing for that prize pool as well. JK, what is the buy-in for that one? Do you know that off the top of your head? It’s 12,000 and I will be playing. I will be a, I will be playing.

I will be. Reading the rules are like last year and I will, um, hire a security guard for that weekend to follow me around, to make sure that two things don’t happen. One, I don’t get creepy pictures taken from behind, so he’ll be standing there to the next to me. So if you decide you want to take a creepy picture of me from behind and tweet it, uh, we’ll go ahead and stomp that out right there.

And, um, For anyone who wants to discuss the future of racing and my involvement in it, those people will also be stomped out. So I’ve hired two guys to come along with me, big guys. I used to work for it for the Kardashians. So, you know, they mean business. That’s very serious stuff. You know, you might want to let them carry the pizza box full of money too, on the way out of there, if it ends up like last year, for sure.

Um, all right. Before we get to our guests, I did want to bring up a somber note and talk about the passing of Steve Davidowitz. Steve was somebody I considered a friend and had the pleasure of working with many times. Dying does not make one, a Saint. And there is a lot of people in the industry, um, who saw a lot of different sides of Steve that, you know, I don’t necessarily.

Want to be airing, dirty laundry and getting into let’s just say he was a complicated guy who, uh, you know, like many of us at times had run a foul of people at, at certain points in his career. But to me in my life, he was always someone who was very nice and supportive of me and sat down and had lunch with me.

And we talked for the book. Six secrets of successful betters years ago, he, we had a mutual friend and the great racing writer, and one of the guys, I consider one of my key mentors in this game, William Murray, I can remember going to see San Diego Padres games with him and hearing his old baseball stories.

He was an accomplished pitcher back in Brooklyn before blowing his arm out. And he was just somebody who was always there when I needed a guest for a seminar or somebody to talk to about a handicap question and somebody who. I admired, uh, in that sense and very much admired his work. And that’s where I want to bring the two of you in.

And actually we’ll start with UGK. Cause you did have some personal dealings with Steve Davidowitz as well. You were a contributor to his book, uh, cashing big on racing’s biggest days, but I think you knew of him even well before that. Yeah, no, he, he, yeah, no, um, I’ll leave it. It was, yeah, it’s good. He was, uh, he’s kind of in the midst of a lot of firsts for me.

And when, when Giacomo won the Derby or I had a five across the board, the first thing I did was, was why, first of all, I made my first Amazon purchase ever. And then. And then it, it, it happened to be his book bedding thoroughbreds in the 21st century. And that was the book that propelled me into this as a fun hobby in, Oh, wait a second.

If I do this right. I can actually make some money and it’s not just my, uh, my dad and his address. Right. So this book was, was, was, was huge for me and my development. Some of the things I still use today, whether they’re intuitive or not are, were coming from that book. And, and so, um, it’s always one that I recommend to new players when they’re asking some books to read.

And it was awesome. It was really cool to have the opportunity to work with him when he reached out to talk a little bit about, you know, uh, big scores on big days and, and, uh, and sending that and being a part of that book was a, it was definitely special for me and Sean. I know the DeVito it’s book betting, thoroughbreds, what’s it.

What’s the title of the rerelease JK. You just said it so perfectly. I’ll send it back to you. Bending thoroughbreds in the 21st century. Yeah, that was the re it’s basically the same book that came out in the eighties, but, uh, an update of it for the 21st century as the title says, and it is, I will underline that as, as an important book.

And I know Sean, it was one that you read probably the original when you were getting started and meant something to you. It did. It was, uh, it was one of the first books that I read about handicapping and, you know, I think he. Explored a lot of aspects of handicapping that, that are still important today.

You know, key races, track bias trips, you know, it was just a very thorough book and I would recommend to anybody that’s interested in racing and handicapping, it’s definitely a top five book in my opinion. And at what point you read it pretty early, too, in your development. Yes, it was one of the first two or three that I read.

Yeah, years and years ago. I don’t know exactly when it was, but it was definitely one of the first ones I read. There’s some great stuff. To be honest, I haven’t had a chance to listen yet, but I’m sure it’s going to be great on Steve Right now he had both Andy buyer and Steve Kristin, both of whom were a friends and associates of Davidowitz going back a long way.

And I’m sure there’ll be talking. He. Davidowitz took an awful lot of credit for, for buyer, for getting buyer started on a winning path and, and buyer from what I’ve heard, acknowledges the fact that they did have some really important conversations on that park bench in Saratoga years ago. So it’ll be very interesting to hear in full what those guys have to say and just, yeah, it really saddened me and.

Wanted to acknowledge it on the show. And he is a man who will live on in his excellent work. And I encourage people to check out bedding thoroughbreds in the 21st century and feel free to tweet, email, uh, re memories, uh, questions, et cetera. When it comes to Steve Davidowitz, may he rest in peace? And with that, we’re going to close this portion of the show.

We’ll be back with the guests segments right after this message from our partner black type thoroughbreds.

did you ever wonder what it would be like to own your own professional sports franchise? Well, we can’t offer you that, but we can offer you the chance to compete in thoroughbred racing at the highest levels. Black type thoroughbreds is a new public partnership that can put you in the winner circle for more information about thoroughbred ownership.

Contact Jake Ballis of black type thoroughbreds. Go to black type For more information, that web address, once again is black type All right, so we’re back and we’re going to let the Sean go, but we’re going to hang on to J K as we go ahead and talk about the late pick four from Keeneland on Saturday.

JK, what do you think about these races in general, before we dive into the brass tacks? Well, I mean, it’s keen, so you’re always excited when it’s and the quality of racing it, uh, it, Caitlin is always something that we look forward to for, for four weeks in the spring and four weeks in the fall. So, um, I’m always excited.

All the big connections show up, always a lot of good quality racing. So, uh, it doesn’t matter what’s going on, whether it’s two year old babies curve, sprints, or a mile and a half on the grass, I’m ready to rock. All right with that in mind, let’s begin. We’re going to start off with the seventh race that kicks off this sequence.

I had a lot of trouble seeing beyond number two, mama. New in here had the outside trip. Last time draws inside here. Look the best of the speed. Significant rider switch potentially as well. I just couldn’t get too creative here. Seemed as simple as a mama knew and move on. What did you think though? JK mama who made a lot of sense here?

I was a little bit concerned that, uh, she was 18 to one last time. I, like I said, we talk about it all the time. I really looked to see. How these horses are bet previously. I think that the public is the sharpest handicapper that there is in the world. And when, when the, when the public makes a horse 18, 18 to one, there’s typically a reason why.

Um, and now the horse shows up at five to two. And what could be the favorite in this race? It’s a little bit concerning, probably shorter, to be honest. Absolutely. And if you’re playing the late pick for you, you probably need to use, unless you have enough courage to, to try to get daring in this spot and toss the horse.

I thought Riverside, Riverside walk made a ton of sense. Uh, Danny Kay, our buddy Danny K a multiple NAC qualifier. I think he made the final table multiple times as well. He is a guy who’s pointed out the fairgrounds turf sprinters. Tend to run well at Kean Lynn. So Riverside walk fits in that category was bet.

Last time ran. Well, last time, a lot of things going in the right direction for that one. Uh, Matt Scheer has a horse Juju. Special girl makes a little bit of sense too, uh, with some kind of hidden a fairgrounds turf form, obvious, honestly, not as likely as Riverside walk and then another one that caught my attention and it will be my top pick here is, is pastime for G Watts, Humphrey and Vicky hall.

She’s old for 11 and the meat. And I remember at some point in our lives, I was Mike Maloney had shared to meet with us that Vicky Oliver’s a little bit tricky at Keeneland, especially when she’s got horses for  Humphrey. You know, kind of wanting to get him in the winner circle there, the meat’s coming to an end and maybe this horse, the one that’s going to get them over the snide.

I think pastime makes a lot of sense. And if you’re spreading in this race, like I’m going to be, I’m going to be including, including the eight, really proud for Br’er can Jones as well. Christoph Claremont ran well at Gulf stream. Uh, pretty much all three times this year was fourth off the layoff, but then came back and ran, uh, two impressive races.

Uh, didn’t get the job done in the last star, but I think the horse will be live in here as well. I’m going to spread here. Trying to get a little bit skinnier as we get further down the card, the Vicky Oliver angle making perfect sense. Of course. Cause that’s G Watson pre’s daughter married to trainer, Phil Oliver also having horses in her name.

That’s where that angle comes from to be sure. All right, let’s move on to the eighth race in here. I was going to bust out an angle. I’ve been talking about a few times lately. The old lone closer angle with number nine, spin lightning. Now this isn’t the horse who I necessarily think is going to be able to win, but I really like for the underneath spots in the verticals, we’ve got a race with a lot of speed.

We’ve got a horse who really to be, looks like the only true closer. Adding the blinkers and another one of your favorite angles, JK the West coast, dirt horse heading East. I’m assuming a big price. And again, this is one I’m looking to key underneath, or if you needed a price in a contest, speaking of contest now live up on Derby Wars.

We have our charity game for the thoroughbred retirement foundation. This race will be in it. Spin lightning. A horse I could see using in that contest, depending on where I was in the situation. What do you think about race eight at Keene Linda on Saturday? Well, I think a lot of things that you said were true, I’m hopeful that Larry Ravelli who’s a horse number five strong will work last time at Hawthorne.

I’m hoping that that horse didn’t get on the van so that the AAE can draw in. And I can get bump and Bailey for Rockingham ranch and Peter Miller in the race who ran an unbelievably fast race back in February. Um, breaking his maiden out in Santa Anita shows up here drawn outside. Has the, has the best early speed has the best final number I want bump Bailey and I want a single button Bailey.

If I can get bumped Bailey in off the AAE, if I can’t get him off the E um, spin lightening makes a ton of sense with you said the West coaster is showing up on the East coast. Dirt spreading. I also thought the 10 distant shore for Churchill downs racing club. Uh, they brought us the ever so fun warriors club.

Who, who obviously a outran. Uh, I think a lot of people’s expectations are probably in the Churchill downs racing club, getting involved with that fun group and, uh, and getting a talented horse like warriors club. Maybe distant shore, uh, can, can get them in the winter circle. Hopefully they have enough room down there at Keelan.

I, I think they traveled pretty big. So, uh, the 10 distance shore and the 11 stage left for the other horses that I’ll be using. If bump Bailey doesn’t get in. If bump Bailey gets in. Um, ice cold right here. Singling the Rockingham ranch, sprinter, uh, shipping it from California. I’d never been in one of those like completely barmy winners circle situations before warriors charged the other day.

J K at Oaklawn with our friends at 10 strike racing, man, I think there were 50 of us in the winner circle. Churchill downs racing club. They could put us to shame. That’s, you know, that’s like, you know, Westpoint 1.0 or something. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know how you judge a winner circle with that many people in it.

My my last two winter circle pictures are these. These are both good. And they’re both related to the show. The F the, the, the last one was a 10 strike racing long on value. Uh, the, the, the, uh, the grade one up at Woodbine, the percentage that I had in the horse made me feel like I only was allowed to stay on the back row.

I don’t even know if he can see me in the picture, but I can see you, you have a, uh, something eating grin in that picture that really speaks for itself. I have to say, I didn’t even hit the pig three yet when that happened. So you should’ve seen me after that. Um, and then the picture, the winter circle picture I was in before that was, uh, the, the, the famously named core Darrow for black who wanted Saratoga.

And I snuck in the Saratoga winter circle with shorts on. Oh, I think that that’s an impressive move. There’s no doubt about that. Impressive. This is one word for it. Now, the other thing about the on value picture was that not your birthday as well, or very close to it, if not the actual day. Cause I remember we scored out on something that day and I told you, keep my part, spend that for your birthday winnings birthday weekend.

Uh, I don’t know if it was the exact date, but there was July 1st. I think the horse ran second or third or whatever, June 30th, maybe. No, maybe it was the 30th, but, uh, but we did have good Thai food that night. And then we watched the world cup world cup the next day at this cool beer plays a big fan of Toronto.

That was my, uh, second trip to Toronto. But the, the, the last time I got to kind of actually hang out for, for a long period of time, looking forward to doing some stuff with Woodbine. Well, yeah, and we have exactly coming up later in the show. We’ve got Don Lupo previewing, the meat. We’re going to be talking about Woodbine a lot.

I think we need to try to get up there for Queen’s plate this year. J K um, we are not contractually obligated to, but I just think it would be a really fun thing to do. All right. But we’re running over time. So as much fun as these tangents are, I’m going to bring it back to business and business concludes with the featured race on Saturday, race nine, the Elkhorn.

Look to me like despite the wide draws, Zulu alpha, the horse was the best form in the race could get a sneaky good trip. Potentially. It looked like there was enough speed that he might be able to slot in behind it and just get an excellent trip as the best horse. That always is something I pay attention to.

But stable mate. Of that one bigger picture might be one of these horses that just doesn’t really like Gulf stream the dirt as we call it as much as some other places I was going to just try to get out maker maker and leave it at that. I know that’s generally a point of view you’re sympathetic with, is it as easy as that?

Or is there something else in here for you? I typically like to open the PPE, do a quick scan from top to bottom. I want to know who’s in there before I start looking at the one horse, the two horse, or if I even go in the pace order that I’ve often talked about based on the pastry projector, I want to know who’s in the race.

I saw Zulu alpha and I got excited and I said, Ooh, I’m going to find somebody to beat him because his last two wins were at Gulf stream. Maybe he’s a Gulf stream freak. Let’s try to beat him here. I started, I started looking through the races. And I temporarily fell in love with Hunter. O’Reilly a Fabian.

Oh yeah. Many stories about Hunter. O’Reilly, you know, just don’t cuss if he wins for you. Absolutely. He’s run three times at Keelan he’s one and he ran second once. So I was very interested in him and I was like, okay, Joelle, I liked the Joelle there, Joel, on the turf. And he’s been riding really good. Uh, Caitlin.

And then I got down to the bottom to the horse that I wanted to toss was Zulu alpha. And then I realized that he’s undefeated at Kean Lin with Mike maker. He did run here prior to Mike maker and got beat. Uh, and I just think he lays over the field. He obviously he ran at Keelan when it was good. So there was cut in the ground.

I think that’s a real. Kind of magnifies the, the difference of that surface. And I just think he’s too good. He’s run two really good races. And in both of them, he’s kind of grinded and found a way to make it happen. I think Zulu alpha is the most likely winner. I’m going to use him as like a pressed up a I’m going to try to have him in my pick five sequences or pick four sequences for five, six, seven, eight, nine, $10, whatever I can come up with and then bigger picture.

TIS a slam and Hunter O’Reilly are the other ones that I’ll use kind of underneath a little bit more defensively, uh, but not nearly as heavy as I’m going to lean on, uh, on zoom hurricane Anthony. We’ll be happy to hear you’re including the Hunter as he called them that day in the midst of his tirade.

Okay. Let’s go on to the nightcap. We close it out here. I’ve got to go with the number eight where paradise lay. You don’t see this too often. Six works since the last race, which you know, in modern thoroughbred terms, not that far away back in February. I love the bullet five Furlong work. I love the form on display, but I can’t let the race go without commenting on at least quickly.

Number one, highest honor. Very interesting pedigree. 21 year old mayor there. Six starters, some of whom can really run. Chad obviously, uh, has taken time. And according to the recent works, this one looks sharp. Normally I don’t love at six and a half taking the horse on the way. Well, I’m not going to let highest honor beat me out of everything, but where paradise lay is my number one choice.

What do you think about this one? How are we going to close out these picks? How are we going to close out? This might be the last race JK in the Derby Wars, thoroughbred retirement foundation contest. How are we gonna get the winter here? Well, you know, if you’re playing the pig four or you’re playing the pick five, I just hope that you’re going to be alive when you get to this race.

Uh, we talked about on our Caitlin preview show about a horse by the name of guarana for Chad Brown, I believe is running on Friday. Uh, from what I understand, I don’t tell anybody the highest honors has worked with Guan in the past. Uh, worked well. So if guarana wins on Friday, I’m singling ISDN on her.

On Saturday, if guarana does not win, I’m tossing highest honor. And I’m going to try to find something else that will work for me a little bit. Obviously you need to consider, uh, the dolphins horse was strong market. Uh, the horse that you mentioned where paradise lay, and then I thought that, um, that Fortune’s fool was another one that made a lot of sense.

Had the nice race back in February at Gulf stream. Uh, first off of a first debut for Jimmy toner. Uh, a guy that you would think would, would, would improve with his horses second time out. Um, and not a guy that’s, uh, you know, the first out maiden breaker, wind by seven type of guy, uh, that horse wasn’t really bet that day ran well was 15 to one, uh, ran second that day and then, and then comes back and runs again.

So I think that he’s definitely live in this spot, Kiran, and, uh, and the horse that you mentioned for a Sagamore farm, but if, if Chad’s a other horse wins on Friday, guarana, Then I’ll, I’ll be signaling highest honor based on that company line from the workout. All right. Thank you, JK. I think we’ve covered that pretty well.

We’ve got a couple of guests coming up. We’re going to have Brandon Lee talking about the lone star meat and especially the great, no entry fee contest opportunity coming up there. And then we’re going to have Dawn loophole to talk about Woodbine and then a very special announcement at the end of the show about the newest member of the extended.

In the money players, podcast, family stay tuned for all that stuff, but we’ve got Brandon Lee coming up next. Any closing words from UGK before we go there, I’m glad you asked me for the closing. I’m going to cut you off PTF. A million dollar race on Saturday. I got to give you, I got to give you a horse in a million-dollar race.

The Charlestown classic three turns. Uh, there’s one turn horses. There’s two turn horses and there’s three torn horses. We don’t talk about a much on this show. I love a horse. It’s a price 12 to one, the eight running to love. You has run at Charlestown 14 times and has won 11 times. His last figure was fast.

It was off a long layoff going seven. It was a prep for this one. This horse is going to run well, I don’t know if he can beat a horse, like rally cry, but you’re gonna get 12 to one to figure it out. I like it. Rally cry was my master of the obvious pick in there. I mentioned on one of the other shows, but I liked the idea of you reaching for a price.

Okay. Stay tuned for more. Of the, in the money players podcast coming up right now. And now I’d like to welcome to the, in the money players podcast, Brandon Lee from lone star park, Brandon, how are you doing today? I’m doing great. It’s opening day at lone star. How are you doing Pete? I’m doing very well.

That’s right. We’re recording this on Thursday. The 18th lone star opens tonight. I wanted to bring you on to talk about some of the highlights of the meat, including tonight’s card, and also very specifically about this upcoming handicapping contest, but let’s start with the tonight and opening day.

Anything special you guys have planned. Well, our featured race tonight is the $50,000 blue bonnet steaks. We do have a field of nine entered into that race and field size for the weekend is looking strong. We got an average of 9.6 through Saturday, so far, so just I’m excited to get the meat underway.

For HorsePlayers who aren’t that familiar with lone star? What are some of the resources, maybe people to follow on Twitter who are deep in the weeds and Lonestar who can sort of get HorsePlayers started going on their journeys with this a potentially new track for them. I will tell you that a couple of trainer angles to look at is definitely Steve S Newson.

Um, he is our home grown hall of fame trainer. He was our, uh, leading trainer last year. Um, by earnings, Karl Broberg is always, um, fast on his heels called Robert won the meet last year by wins. Um, and then always in contention is Brett Calhoun. So those are our three strong trainers. We do have CJ McMahon coming back as a.

He was our leading jockey in 2016. And he’s on several amounts this weekend. And, um, and looking to see, I think Richard Harami will be returning the season. He doesn’t have any mouth this weekend, but he’s been our last two years leading writer. And, um, but yeah, Broberg had asked me since look for them to battle the top of the trainer leader board at lone star.

Sounds like the plan, as far as that goes, in terms of your simulcast feed, do you have a handicapper who’s on there all the time, somebody who might be worth a Twitter follow or some other information fans can glean about lone star from a handicapping perspective as the meat develops. Definitely. So Rodney Nelson, who is a lone star expert, he’s at rail bird, Rodney, and then also our track announcer Jim Byers.

He also has a presence on Twitter. Uh, you’ll also see his picks on TVG if you watch TBG, but his handle is. At Jim violet, it’s Jim underscore the underscore lip. That’s a good one. I like it very much. And you know, you get covered in DRF and around the industry as well. So there’s a lot of places. One can learn one resource.

I know you’ll be getting at some point down at lone star is our own Jonathan kitchen. JK is going to be doing a seminar for you at some point. Is that right? Do you know when that’s going to be happening? Yeah. So next Sunday, which is Sexton mile day and also the day of the tournament. Um, Fox sports show will be here and JK will be down here as our reporter that day.

And, and we haven’t ironed out all the details, but we’ll be looking to get him involved as much as possible. So, and you know, this is his home track, so we’re very excited to get him back down here. And I know he’s excited as well. Let’s talk about this contest a little bit. It’s a $1,000 live bank roll event.

Give folks some of the particulars about it. Definitely. So no entry fee. And what I mean by that it’s a hundred percent player bank role. I know a lot of other tournaments will take 25% of your buy-in and apply it to the prize purse. Lone star park is putting up 100% of the plaque price. Great deal. That person.

$7,500 cash and for guaranteed and HD seats, um, we’re guaranteeing one in 25. Odds are better to win an NHTC and we can go as high as 10. So what we’ll do we have the four guaranteed seats. If we hit a hundred entries, we’ll add a fifth. And we’ll add one, every 25 entries thereafter. That’s just a great deal for players.

The ratio is favorable to a lot of other tournaments you’re going to say. And how amazing is that? Like at our own, uh, world horse players tour, the house is putting up the pers. Very, very cool. This is one that’s not just worth playing in if you’re a Texas person, but one that you’re, that’s worth traveling to.

I would say if you’re anywhere in the area, remind folks one more time when the contest is, and is there a deadline by which you have to sign up? So the contest is next Sunday. April 28th, it’s on our Steve Sexton mile day, which is, you know, features the biggest race we have this season and there is no deadline.

I will ask player to go to our website, sign up. It helps me with planning purposes, but anybody that wants to walk in that day and has that thousand dollars buy-in, we’re going to let them play. So all you need, um, you need to be an NHC tour member. You need to be able to, you know, get here in time to play the races that day, but we’ll, we’ll let everybody play that, um, can play.

And you can play at the two entries. We’re also giving everybody, um, complimentary valet parking to the track that day, as well as a seat in our silks dining room is an access to the buffet. So we’re trying to roll out the red carpet to all the players out there. Cause we appreciate them and we want to try to drive as much handle as possible.

Great opportunity. Now I’m going to ask if I’m going to ask you to recap the rules in a minute, but before I do that, Is there, are there any qualifying options or is this one where you just have to show up and put the money down? Well, there are a couple qualifying options left. So this week is the final week that you can qualify on horse

So there are a daily theaters and then this Sunday is a $79 qualifier. And then we are hosting. If you’re in the area, we have an opening night, a hundred dollars buy-in contest tonight. And then also, um, the day before for not only local players, but anybody flying in and might be here the Saturday, the 27th, we’re doing a $250 feeder, uh, live money as well, 100% player bank roll with a one per eight ratio.

So we’re going to throw in a great spot. In contest every eight entries. It’s really just an excellent deal for players. And I’m so happy to get a chance to let folks know about it. I’ll also sound the trumpets on my appearance on Steve  show next week, the rules of the tournament itself let’s recap those.

Sure. So all of the races will be on the Lonestar park live card. And very similar to the King Lynn contest. So we’ll have an early race period in which you have to wager your initial bankroll amount. You can wager more on top of your winnings, but, um, so for example, that Sunday, the 28th, a thousand dollars buy-in, you will need to wager at least a thousand dollars during the course of the first seven races.

And then. The late race period, which will be racist eight, nine, and 10, you will be required to wager 50% of your bank role that you had at the end of the seventh race. So let’s say you weighed your a thousand bucks and you’re up to 3000. At the end of the seventh, you’ll have to wait or another 1500 or more over the final three races.

And the wagering menu will be win place, show and exactness. Okay. Very cool. So, no, you can’t go into the horizontal pools, but you’ve got your wind place show and you’ve got your exact, the no tries. So it sort of keeps things hopefully from a one lucky hit blasting you off there. It’s, it’s probably one that’s going to more, uh, we reward players who are grinding through picking winners, pick an exact as picking horses to hit the board.

Was that the theory? Definitely. I think we, last year we did have trifectas in our live money format. And all three of our NHC contests, uh, were awarded to somebody who hit a big trifecta. And we thought that, you know, maybe we could shrink the leaderboard a little bit as far as, um, keeping players engaged longer that were, you know, maybe midway down the board as well as, you know, just, just kind of keep it more competitive, but you know, we’ll see how it goes.

This is the first time we, we haven’t had tries in our live money format. I think it makes sense that it’s a worthwhile experiment, especially when you see contests becoming one race contest, we need to do more to try to make contests. Affairs that reward people who are participating early middle and late, as opposed to the various ways that you can get around that either by hitting a big try.

And of course the classic live bank roll problem of people just hoarding money and turning it into a one race contest at the end. This one, honestly, with these financial terms, almost no matter what the rules were in terms of wagering menu and what you asked me to bet I’d want to do it just because there’s no entry fee.

And you’ve got that favorable ratio. If you’re talking about winning at NHC seat, do you expect players to come in from around the country for this? What have you heard so far? Yeah, well, actually, um, we do have, um, there seems to be a California coalition on their way, but yeah, excited about that. I think we, we’ve got a lot of interest.

Um, I’m hearing from people daily about, you know, making the trip in. I’ve got, you know, got a couple of folks from Ohio and a couple of folks from the Northeast. So we’re, we’re just excited to host everybody and we’re going to try to put on the best show we can. It really sounds great. I wish I could be there.

JK will be there to represent the, in the money podcast family. So that’s a good thing. And, uh, Brandon, I want to thank you for your time today. Folks who want to sign up, what’s the best place to go. What is the exact URL to sign up for this contest? So you can go to lone star

Or you can just go to Lonestar and click on the tournament button, which is the very first button on our homepage. And folks who want to reach out to you directly. What’s the best way to do that. You can reach me at Brandon dot Lee and that’s L E I G Email is the best way to get ahold of me.

Fantastic stuff, Brandon, thanks so much for your time today. And hopefully you’ll see a bunch of our listeners out that way. Thanks, Pete. Appreciate it. And now I’d like to say that we saved the best for last. We’re going to bring in Dawn loophole of Woodburn to talk about their upcoming meet. How are you doing this morning?

I’m doing great, Peter. It is so exciting to finally be back at it here in Toronto. It’s a long winter up there. Isn’t it? Yes. You could say that. It’s uh, it’s kinda been an especially, um, you know, beautiful one. I’m just kidding. There it’s been, it’s been a lot of snow, a lot of cold. So looking forward to definitely the return of warm weather and the thoroughbreds.

Well, what are you looking forward to most at this upcoming would buy meat. We’ll start there. Uh, there’s so much going on this year. Like the, this place is a work in progress because they’re doing a lot of construction. There’s the casino, you know, there’s a lot going on on the grounds itself. And then of course the, uh, the biggest change to the service side of things is the addition of the inner turf track.

And that will be something to look forward to. I’m not sure when exactly it will be ready to go. It’s looking good. It just needs a lot of warmth and, uh, maybe a little rain. We are going to actually have a special guest on next week to talk about that somebody involved in the development of the turf course itself.

But let me just ask you this as a horseplayer, when there’s a new course to deal with like this inner turf, what is your approach going to be? You’re going to be wanting to just dip a toe into the water. Is there any way you can prepare so you can hit the ground running? What are your thoughts? You know, it, it is kind of a conundrum because the opportunities will be there.

And I think everybody takes a similar approach in there in that they’re a little bit tentative. So when everyone’s doing one thing, the best advice in gambling and life really is to do the opposite. So I’m thinking jump in with both feet, um, you know, try to find horses who show some speed. It’ll be a little bit tighter turns there with the seventh for a long configuration, uh, on.

Suspecting over the long haul that inner post positions may be favored. So anything was speed on the inside and they’re going in to dive right in and, uh, rail positions might be something to look at. I assume there will be a portable rail setting on the turf. We’ve noticed that looking at data at other tracks, when the.

Chorus has really wide the rail settings, I think can sometimes be given like too much credit for helping or hurting speed. But I would think when you’re talking about an inner turf course, that might be something to just keep an eye on, to see how it’s playing in the early going. Do you know if they’re planning on having a portable rail on a regular basis?

I would assume so. I was not a hundred percent sure because it’s only so wide, um, as it is. So I think the ability to maybe move it out to a couple of lanes would be helpful, but, uh, you know, the beauty of it is it’s different. It’s not the only turf course. You know, we do have the AB tailor as well, which.

You know, that gives you a little bit of play in that you don’t have to rely on just one, so you don’t have to be so fussy about moving rails for you in your study. Do you prefer the turf racing or the synthetic racing? How do you compare and contrast the two in the work that you do for Woodbine? Uh, well, you know, as, as a public handicapper, you have to find a way to do both, uh, and, and try to do both equally well.

And as a, as a handicapper, you know, a better make trying to make money, you focus on what you’re good at, but as a public handicapper, you really have to attack everything with the same enthusiasm. Um, of course I have my, my things that I prefer, um, I like lately raised horses. I really enjoy bedding turf, um, because, uh, The field sizes tend to be quite big.

The payouts tend to be, you know, a little bit larger as well. So from that standpoint, I enjoy it. But, um, yeah, I, I really try to just, you know, be competent at, uh, at a variety of things. I think that’s necessary when you do what we do. I had the pleasure of shadowing you for a few races when I was up at Woodbine a couple of years ago, and was impressed not just by your, your knowledge of the form, but your ability to look at horses now, obviously when it comes to doing public handicapping and writing things in advance or making picks and advance, you don’t have the benefit of looking to the horses as they’re going to the gate.

But in terms of your own wagering, how important is it for you to be able to look at the horses? In the paddock and on the track before the race begins. For me, it’s, it’s very important because it’s, it’s my edge. Um, and I think everyone needs to find their edge, whatever that may be. It may be studying speed figures.

It may be pedigrees. It could possibly be, um, you know, trip handicapping. There’s a million ways to attack this game. So because of my background, the fact I’ve been around horses all my life. That, uh, that up close and personal looks that I get is something that I can translate into, uh, information that, that gives me an edge.

And I do keep copious notes and, you know, certainly do, uh, do share that from race to race. It’s the first time starters where, you know, they all come over and I’m getting a chance to see them for the first time. And in those cases, I definitely try to go through as quickly as possible and identifying horses that I feel are ready to go on that day.

Let’s talk a little bit more about. Your background, where did this all begin for you and how did your journey to Woodbine progress? Oh, uh, that could fill a book on Coles notes version. My, my dad decided out of blue, he’s a chemical engineer by trade. He wanted to get into racing. So he wanted to do something that he could do himself.

So he got into Standardbreds bought one and one turned into two, turned into five, turned into 30, um, got into the breeding game. So I was exposed to, to it from the age of like six. And showed horses. Myself was always riding, used to ride the race horses, um, you know, constantly on horses backs. It’s just, it’s been a part of my life for forever.

Uh, got into the TV side of things back in 1995 at Northlands park in Edmonton. And I was doing both breeds. Um, the analysis on both breeds. Uh, and from there I came to Toronto. I was still training horses when I became a trainer owner breeder and brought a truck full of horses out to East here to Toronto in 2008.

And, uh, don’t own any anymore. I sold my last horse in 2013 and now I’ve just been doing the broadcasting since then. Is that the kind of joke like they say about, um, owning a boat, the two happiest days of the boat owner’s life or the day he buys the boat and the day he sells the boat, did you have a similar experience with, uh, actually, you know, it’s, uh, any, anyone who’s involved in the game in any way shape or form know that?

Um, I mean, there’s. There’s tough days and the tough days do tend out number the good days, but you remember the good days for forever. Uh, there’s just something so special about working with horses and they, they are, you know, the animals themselves are, are beautiful. They’re, they’re noble, they’re so intelligent.

Um, you know, you forget that when you’re just looking at past performances on a page, they’re not just numbers, you know, they’ve, they’ve got personalities, they’ve got feelings and, um, just. You know, viewing the game from that way. That that’s what keeps me coming back. I really look forward to seeing the horses come over and getting a chance to take a good look at them.

I agree. There’s definitely a magic to it. Um, that, that adds a lot to the whole experience. But getting back to the idea of looking at horses on paper of studying them to predict the likelihood of the various winners. I’m going to take a guess that you started doing that process in the standard bread world before crossing over to the thoroughbred world.

And I was curious if there’s any lessons from standard breads that you still apply to this day and your job handicapping, thoroughbreds. Um, probably not directly, um, you know, cause I would even, I used to spend hours just sitting on a fence and watching horses run in the paddock, whether they were, you know, I used to show Appaloosa, it could be an Appaloosa, it could be a, you know, a standard road, quarter horse, whatever.

I just loved watching how they moved and you know, the different nuances to the way they carried themselves. And especially in herd situations, you know, the pecking order, everything else I used to love doing that. A youngster. And even, you know, as I went along in the game and so overall, it’s, it’s a horse with four legs, a tail and a nose.

And, um, the, what they’re asked to do certainly breeds specificity means something and Standardbreds are built differently than thoroughbreds. Um, really good. Thoroughbreds tend to be built a little bit differently than. You know, your sort of average, their breads. So those nuances are, um, are what I really like to look for.

I wanted to ask you about race calling. That’s something that I believe you’ve participated in as well. What’s been your experience calling races. Is it something you’re interested in doing more of it’s such a lonely job, basically. You’re just sitting there with a microphone and talking to yourself all day.

Um, it w wasn’t really anything that I. Yeah. Originally wanted to do. I kind of, I didn’t even do it out in Edmonton. I was working at the tracks there for, um, 15 years. I got so, and then when I came out East to Toronto, I had an opportunity to try it and I ended up doing it for a summer with the Standardbreds set.

To grand river, a half mile track, um, in Ontario. And, uh, then just kind of filled in from here and there. And it was kind of a novelty. I don’t profess to be good at it. It’s, it’s, it’s a very challenging position for me. I find it a little bit. To solitary, uh, you know, to want to do it all the time, but, uh, I have nothing but great respect for the people who do it and who have done it for years and years.

And it’s a real art. Uh, they, they have an art to what they do and, um, you know, it’s, everything happens so fast and it’s just, it’s fantastic to listen to somebody who’s mastered that craft. It is an amazing skill. When folks, when folks bring the goods behind the microphone, as all race fans know, I’m particularly interested in that angle.

Cause I have a daughter who’s six years old. She’s got broadcasting in her blood. Not, no, I’m not talking about the stuff I do on podcasts, but my father was a New York radio guy going way back. So she’s got. The broadcasting from, uh, from him, the horse racing stuff for me, I have this vision of her calling a race somewhere one day.

So very interested in talking to race callers, always, but particularly the angle of the female race color, because we just haven’t heard enough of them over the years. No, there really aren’t enough. And, and, you know, it’s something that, uh, it’s kind of strange really, because horse racing stands apart from really all other sports and that females are, um, prevalent in the industry on every level and compete on an equal level.

Trainers or jockeys or, you know, even horses themselves. And you don’t have to look far back to find the likes of Zenyatta and winks and, uh, you know, Rachel Alexandra and the names come forward. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s not something that a lot of women have decided to tackle and I’m not sure why. Um, I, I suspect that it will happen more and more though, in the future.

I want to just get a few more highlights from the upcoming Woodbine meet from you days that simulcast players should circle on their calendars, where they definitely want to be paying attention to what’s going on. It would bind and maybe days or weekends to plan trips around and things that local folks, we’ve got a lot of Ontario listeners as well, days where they want to make sure they’re getting out to the track.

What are some of the highlights for you looking at this upcoming season? Oh, there’s so many because we know as you know, it’s, um, it’s, it’s, uh, along meet it endures from this weekend, right until December, um, the Queen’s plate. Of course, if, if you haven’t been here Saturday, June the 29th is the day that you want to circle on your calendar.

And, uh, and a lot of people do. It’s one of those bucket list things, you know, that they come and they enjoy the fun and festivities. It’s actually an entire weekend now that we, um, That we put together kind of like a Queen’s play weekend with the actual play being on the Saturday, but Friday, June the 28th, there’s lots going on and concerts and everything else.

And it extends right into Sundays. So it can turn into a real, um, a real destination place. And I know that it has for, for many, uh, so that would be our highlight weekend. There’s there’s steak races every weekend. Um, throughout the meet, of course later on in the season, we get the big days like the, uh, international and, you know, the Woodbine mile and certainly.

Names that people recognize, but, uh, that’s what I would point out. Definitely June the 29th is, uh, is what you would want to focus on. I’m going to definitely try to get there for Queen’s plate. I’m definitely going to be there for Woodbine mile and I’ll give a special shout out to the great contest that’s developed up there over the last few years on Woodbine mile day.

That’s one contest players should definitely be already. Thinking about circling on the calendar, just a great day of racing and a ton of fun and a great opportunity in that Woodbine mile day contest. We’ll be talking about that more and more. Let me ask you a little bit of Toronto lifestyle stuff, Dawn, while we have you, in terms of places to go out, things to do in conjunction with your trip to Woodbine any particular, a restaurant somewhere, it could, it could be somewhere horsey or it could be somewhere that’s just really good that folks might want to pair with their upcoming trips.

Well, of course we have, um, you know, we’re quite proud of the fact that we do, uh, have a lot of dining opportunities right here at the facility and, you know, the casino that offers something, um, that a lot of people enjoy doing. And, uh, there are fine dining opportunities here. So I would start here. Of course, our, um, our waterfront downtown is.

Uh, is world renowned and, uh, there’s multiple, multiple places to go in in that area. So, uh, you can spend probably two of your three day trips here, right. At Woodbine, and then head out to downtown. We’ve got. You know, sports teams got the Toronto blue Jays and the, uh, baseball. And of course the maple Leafs right now, we’re in the playoffs for the Stanley cup and the hockey, um, that you can always head over.

There’s a, we have our soccer club, uh, Toronto FC, which is pretty popular as well. And, um, you know, there’s always something for everybody to, uh, to take a look at here. And, um, CFL football happens too, so never a shortage of things. And I I’m. I’d be remiss not to mention the Toronto Raptors as well in basketball.

And they look like they’ve got a good season of wrapping up here as they are in the playoffs as well, a lot going on in Toronto, great international dining options that I’ve enjoyed. And here’s a happy coincidence that. That would bind mile contest. I talked about before, it’s basically the same time as the Toronto international film festival, which is probably second only to con.

So if you need to convince your significant other. To go to Toronto for a week and maybe your hidden motivation is to go to Woodbine mile day and enjoy the races and play in the contest. But you can dangle that carrot of the film festival and all the, uh, all the food and drink. And I would also second that emotion about the hospitality.

I would buy that a buffet and the Woodbine club is definitely. Uh, several lengths ahead of what you’re going to find at most racetracks it’s. Uh, it’s it’s very good, very good stuff. So Don, give us a little bit of an update on what your responsibilities will be for the upcoming meet and where folks can continue to find great information from you, uh, in, in print, in social media, and of course, on air.

Um, well, a good place to start as always our website. Um, you know, our media team does a, an excellent job. There would, uh, of, uh, Jeff Brown. My counterpart here and myself are both on Twitter. Uh, I’m at Woodbine Dawn. He is at Woodbine brat and, uh, you know, you can follow along live time with what’s going on.

Uh, I’ve got an Instagram account as well, uh, at Woodbine Don also. Uh, so yeah, lots of different places where you can get information from, um, every day I do a short, a minute long video every race day before the races and just post, uh, just talk about some of the pixel, like, you know, maybe the weather, how it might affect the track, just things that you need to know.

Okay. On the morning of, uh, usually posted around 1130 and post time for our first race on the weekends is at one o’clock great stuff, Dawn, thank you so much for taking time out to be with us. And we’ll check in with you again throughout this season. Really looking forward to our new partnership with Woodbine sounds great.

And we will see you on Queen’s plate weekend. I like it. Cheers doc. Thanks Peter. All right, that just about wraps us up for this edition of the end, the money players podcast. Going to do things a little bit differently. We’re going to start with some quick thank yous. I want to thank Jonathan kitchen. I want to thank Brandon Lee.

I want to thank Don Lupo. Most of all, I want to thank you. All of you for listening, but we’re going to close out the show with a welcome, and this is a hello and welcome if you will, to the world and in this. And since we’re talking about Caroline Helen, Balas born April 17th, 2019 at 4:21 PM came into this world at eight pounds, 19 and a half.

Inches. Hello, Caroline. Very happy to have you with us. And I envision a keen Lind birthday party at some point in the near future. Congratulations to parents, Jake and Maddie. What a great thrill. Fantastic stuff. And I’ll close it out, not with the usual salutation, but with the only way I know how with a little musical cue.

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