Show 40: More on Oaks and Derby (Pat Cummings

***Please note this was done with AI and likely contains errors and inaccuracies. ***

If you’re going to be in Baltimore on Preakness week, you should come hang out with me. I’m going to be at the America’s best racing pre Preakness party. On Wednesday night, they’ve been doing this the last few years. It’s been a big hit it’s at the Mount Washington Tavern. There’ll be lots of fun stuff going on, including complimentary drink, tickets, snacks, a door prize, and we’re going to be doing a Preakness preview panel featuring myself.

Gabby God debt, who everybody knows from her fine work on TV and Sean  who listeners will know from his many great appearances on this show. There’s also going to be a silent auction. Tickets on site are $30, but you can beat that by using the promo code ITM pod for $5 off easiest way. To get these tickets is to go to event bright.com and then search for the America’s best racing pre Preakness party.

And then as you purchase tickets, use that code ITM pod. We’re going to have a lot of fun down there in Baltimore. We hope you join us. If you have any trouble getting the tickets, et cetera, reach out to me. You can find me on Twitter at looms boldly, or send me a message through the, in the money podcast.com website.

We’ll help get you sorted out. Why aren’t you there with me and Sean and Gabby and the ABR team and the rest Wednesday of Preakness week in Baltimore. Mt. Washington Tavern. We’ll see you then

your listening to the, in the money players podcast.

Hello and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. This is show number 40. I’m your host, Peter Thomas foreign, a towel back with you. In the Brooklyn bunker. It is Monday, May 6th. And boy, there is just still so much to unpack, even though we’ve already done an hour on the Derby DQ. So many questions coming in.

I don’t know. This may just be a short show where we talk a little bit more about that. And we do some more on the undercard races on Kentucky Derby and Kentucky Oaks day and here to talk with. Me all about it is the people’s champion. Jonathan Kinchin JK what’s up. Yeah. If it’s going to, it’s going to have to be a short show or our friends, uh, Sean Borman and, and the Prince of Keeneland might not ever forgive you.

Uh they’re they’re waiting for lunch and I’ve got them on hold. So we, we, we better make it quick lunch. It’s 1120, come on. Well, is that, is that too early? I wouldn’t be waiting at lunch at 1120. No, I mean, I would say noon is the earliest. Any civilized person would go to lunch. And even though these two guys they’re, they, they get a, they get when they want their launch, they want their launch and they want it.

Now how much time do you have seriously? We’ll do the production meeting in the middle of the show. It’s a recurring gimmick. Yeah, we’ll just with a quick 20 or 30, right? Well, we, we, I think we, we abused the Derby topic yesterday. We got after that is pretty darn good. What has happened since yeah. More has happened since on that.

It’s just interesting seeing different people weigh in. I wanted to hear what you thought about this quote from your man, your man B squared. We’ll get to that in. A second, but first off, I want to talk to you about the steely center and this is no spoilers. I’m not going to make the same mistake two weeks in a row and ruin game of Thrones for the listeners.

The way I ruined it for you last week, J K, but you did send around this video clip that appears to show a Starbucks cup in Westeros said on a banquet table. In the latest episode, I’ve thought about it for 12 seconds. That I’ve decided it’s a hoax. How w how certain are you that this is real. Um, I haven’t actually watched it back to see if it’s true, but I did see like a few people tweet that they watched it back and saw that there was really there.

Um, I mean, I guess I could look, but I just assumed that it was real funny, funny, none. The less, it is funny, nonetheless. So the Bob Baffert quotation, um, actually let’s go back and talk about the Gary West interview. Now I don’t want to lump on. Even though I did in private text with you, I don’t want to lump on Gary West for this new sort of sore sport, uh, interview that I guess appeared in the TDN my best guess is that this was a long emotional couple of days.

And a reporter got to him when he was kind of at the end of his tether. And he said some things that he’s going to. Back off of, at some point where it was more or less like threatening to take his ball and go home. I E get out of the game. I think that’s just something that anybody would feel in a moment of difficulty.

And what makes it bad? Is it being, you know, publicized essentially. So I’m not willing to, if you were to double down on the stance, then I’d be more happy to lump on with the chorus of people talking about that. That’s not. Great sportsmanship are a sign of great character. All of the things that are being said, but I think it’s a little harsh and I’m tempted to give the guy a break.

What was your reaction when you read the West quotes about the maximum security DQ? Well, look, I mean, I think that I’ve never been in that position, right? I’ve never owned a horse that, that crossed the wire first in the Kentucky Derby. So I can’t tell you how I would act and I can imagine there’ll be some frustrations, right?

It’s a rule. And it’s a situation that is, that is frustrated owners and betters and jockeys. And fans, uh, for the last a hundred years, I’d imagine. And, um, it’s just like passing our fence and football, holding and football. Uh, you know, the Dez catch at green Bay, the rule is there and the rule was followed.

Is it a bad rule? Heck yeah, we can discuss that all day long if we want to. But like that was the rule and the rule was broken and the rule was followed and the DQ happened. Um, never been a fan of taking my ball and go home, but I, like I said, I’ve never had a, I’ve never been taken down and the biggest race in the history of horse racing.

The Baffert quote that I referred to. This is in the Tim Laden SSI piece. Tim lady has been a guest on the show before. I don’t think he’d mind reading. This will tell you all to go and read. Tim leads, excellent coverage in the pages of sports illustrated, and also@ssi.com. And he quoted Baffert as saying.

Uh, he says, Baffert suggested that therapy is just a different race from all others and that the everyday rules should not apply. No one ever calls an objection. And the Derby Baffert told me Sunday afternoon by texts. It’s always roughly run 20 horse field. I’ve been wiped out numerous times, but that’s the Derby I can see by the book why they did it, but sometimes you’ve got to take your ass kickings with dignity.

Um, and then he did add another point that we talked about the other day, that, that how maximum security is quality getting lost in all this Baffert calls him the best three-year-old in the country. And you can certainly see why one would say that based on what he’s done in his last two races, especially the Derby, but let’s get back to the crux of that idea, JK, because it’s the Derby should different rules have been applied.

I’ll let you answer it and I’ll give you my opinion. No, no, I don’t think that I don’t think that we want to have different rules based on different stages. I think that’s problematic. And part of the reason that we have this confusion is a lack of consistency and a clear understanding of what’s happening.

Um, you know, like in the NBA, when they, you know, a thousand foul, I don’t care if it’s game seven or if it’s, uh, if it’s a Thursday night game on TNT, right. A foul should be a foul and that’s what the fans want. The players want. The coaches want, uh, the betters want. So no, the Kentucky Derby being the Derby, shouldn’t matter.

Yeah. It’s a 20 horse race and I get all of that. The thing with Baffert quotas, this is. You know, it’s, there’s there’s context to it, right? It’s like Baffert is, is obviously got a great relationship with the West with, with game winner and getting them, uh, you know, having a two year old champion and a breeders’ cup, juvenile champion, and in many other good horses, he has to have a special place in his heart for that guy and what he’s going through.

And I get that because let me tell you right now, if Jake ballers or Marshall Graham. Owned maximum security. I’d be more mad than I am right now. I just, it’s just true. They’re my friends and it matters. And I get that. So like, I think this is a very complicated thing to look at objectively. If you have a dog in the fight, it’s hard to, and that’s okay.

Right. It’s like if, if you got snap for 50,000, There’s no way. You’re like, okay, I’m cool with this. There’s you’re going to be a little bit more upset than the person who got put up for 50,000 bike. Why those things have to be taken into consideration when you’re reading these things. I think that’s a good point about looking at it through, you’ve got to see where, where everybody’s coming from.

Politics is just everywhere in life. It’s just, it’s just reality. When you’re talking about a business like horse racing. All right. We did tons on this the other day. I just wanted to hit on those two new bits. Of news. We can look ahead to the Preakness. We got plenty of time for that. We’re going to, we’re going to save, looking ahead to the Preakness and let’s just go back JK and spend the rest of our time today.

I’m looking at my Twitter right here. My Twitter image. When I, the picture I have is Mike Smith. My avatar. Yes. He’s got on the West silk. Yeah, I know that. I just noticed it. It is pretty funny. Um, so maybe you do have a horse in the race in your own way, JK, but you’re staying very objective, which we appreciate.

And objectivity is hard to find. It’s hard to find people like Tony, Joe, you wonder why a guy like Tony is so successful. It’s that he. You know, it costs him a six figure score. I believe that was in the context of the contest that eventually went to Rick broth. I believe we’ve got Rick booked for an interview.

I’m not sure if it’s going to be part of this show at this point or something we do later in the week may do something special late in the week, too, but for him to be so magnanimous. But yeah, I understand why, why that rule was made. There’s a lot of conversation yet to be had. And I want to bring in Pat Cummings to talk about it too.

I’ve been doing a lot of research about the pros and cons of the different. Ways of adjudicating horse races. Anyway, that’s something else we’re going to be talking about the international standard versus ours. There are, because the more I look at it, there, there are good and bad to both. I want to give Pat a chance to defend his avowed position on it.

I think he will probably convince me that his ideas are still right, but I do have some questions to ask him, but we’re going to put all that on hold. If you want to hear more about the DQ, listen to the last show. We are going to talk about the stakes races on the Derby and Oaks. Undercards here. Talk a little about the Oaks itself, which I think we absolutely gave short shrift to.

Should we just go start backwards, start off with the bricks and mortar who earned the one Oh three buyer speed figure and just looked imperious in victory. You know what? That’s the nice way of saying right? JK. No, what’s that. And I suppose that was, I mean, it’s basically, instead of saying, you know, it’s words, words, we wouldn’t be able to say, instead of saying, you know, you peed on the field or however you want to express that you just say imperious and victory was bricks and mortar in the old Forester turf classic.

What did you think of this race? What are we going to see from this horse next? What does it work? Like if I’m on a road trip and I say, Hey, can we pull over? I need to Imperial. No, not at all. Oh, it’s, it’s more just like, it’s just a phrase. That means the same thing. Imperious is a great word. It’s like, it’s like you, look, I, uh, I should look up the actual definition, but the idea is that you’re like, so superior.

You just, you look on everything else. Like it’s inferior to you and that’s imperious and victory. To me, that’s a good description of what bricks and mortar was in that race. Uh, I thought he was remarkable. Um, you know, it was one of those deals where like, from the eighth pole home, it’s like, he looked like he was probably gonna win, but then like every three or four strategies say, well, maybe he’s not going to win.

Oh, he’s gonna win for sheriff. Oh, maybe he’s not gonna win. And then he came up and won. Uh, I thought it was extremely impressive. You know, he, he’s a horse that I just, haven’t always given a lot of credit to. And I, and it might have something to do with the fact that. That, uh, he had a nice little tussle with our boy yo sheet up at Saratoga, and I probably unfairly was angry at him for that situation.

And so I’ve always kind of treated him a, like a, like a redheaded stepchild, but he, he did forklift. I’m not pressured to said that. Huh. That’s okay. We’re going to leave that in. That’s fine. Okay. Well, redheaded. Yeah. Well, it’s a real child who cares. I like red-headed kids. Um, you’re making it worse. Not better.

Let’s get back to bricks and mortar here. Yeah. I thought he was unbelievably impressive. You know, a horse that I do want to give a little bit of credit to that I was kind of a dismissive of his curve ball and I thought he ran amazing, especially from where he ran. He was down inside the majority of the time, raging bull and other ones.

Who looked absolutely done it. The three eights poll, right back at the half mile pole, if you watch those NBC feeds, which is so much fun to watch racing, when they, when they have the blimp, it’s just infinitely better than what we have to deal with on a daily basis of the pan. JK, be nice if they busted out the, uh, the head-on at the right time, but nevermind they’re inside the little DQ humor folks.

So for those, who’ve been following the story closely, but, but continue know bricks and mortar. I think he’s going to be a ton of fun the remainder of the year. Um, You know, most of these big races he’s been running in, you know, I think the Pegasus, uh, turf was at a mile and an eighth as well. If I’m not mistaken.

Yes. Um, And so, so, you know, well maybe it wasn’t a mile and an eight. Yeah. Oh, it was three 16th. The configuration of Gulfstream. Okay. The eighth of the, of the mile eight race was down at a fairground. So we’re going to find out a little bit more about bricks and mortar, uh, when he starts to have to start running some of these longer distances.

I don’t know if we’ll see him at Belmont. I believe that race is at a mile and a quarter on the Manhattan classic. Um, so we’ll see what he does. If he shows up there. And then obviously at Saratoga they’ll get even further and further. I don’t know if he’s the type that’s going to show up in like the man of war and running these mile and a half grade ones, but he is a talented son of a gun and a lot of fun to watch.

Giant’s Causeway, no reason for me to believe that the extra distance isn’t going to be his friend. I haven’t heard too much about that. Couple of more quick things on bricks and mortar. Before we move it on down the line, you talk about the always going to win. Not going to win. It’s not that he ran in snatches.

You were just talking about the way the race flowed, when the real running started, he put down the hammer decisively, or were you questioning some element of the performance? No, and I don’t want to call it green because he, he’s obviously a mature and professional horse. You don’t want to call a horse.

He’s one, you know, two of the biggest grade, one turf races in America, green, he just was a little bit like he was a little goofy, you know, he was just loaded, I think maybe. And he was. And when he was accelerating and in Iran was asking him, he kind of came over a little bit. Um, probably like the three 16th pole.

Just watch it, watch it again. You’ll see what I mean. Wasn’t all over the place, but he wasn’t traveling in a straight line. That’s for sure. I’ll check it out. I’ll check it out. And the other thing, part of the reason why I think you’ve been not maybe giving him the respect he deserves is there was talk.

I mean, Margaret was more backstretch chatter than anything that was properly reported, but there was talk before. The Pegasus race that like that he was the third best turf horse in the barn. And was the one that they thought they could just get ready quickest for this. It didn’t sound like he was necessarily going to be the big gun at that point.

But I think at this point, he’s the big gun. There’s no question about it. Yes. I agree. I do think he is the big gun. I think that a raging bull, um, if he, you know, I said he ran pretty hard impressively. I think he’s going to continue to progress in the right direction and. I guess the biggest disappointment for me in the race was synchrony.

I thought synchrony was on a run a lot better, but lots of excuses were right there. I mean, maybe you didn’t like the ground. Maybe he didn’t like the blinkers. Maybe he didn’t like Johnny. I don’t know. But he didn’t, he there’s a lot of changes going on and he didn’t seem to respond well to any of them.

I’m going to tell Christina Helmer that you’re finally on board with her horse raging bull. She’ll be pleased. I know she was losing sleep over your continued dissing of raging bull, a talented runner in his own. Right. But clearly behind bricks and mortar in the pecking order. And with that, we move on to the Churchill down sprint, uh, no limousine liberal.

That was a sad story. I suppose it could have been worse right here, career over due to injury, but, but he’s still okay from what you’re hearing limousine liberal before we get onto totally. Yeah, you won’t be a race horse anymore, but, uh, from what I understand, um, Uh, you know, that’s, it’s, it wasn’t anything, anything catastrophic, just there’s something that’s going to prevent him from racing.

I apologize to the English friends who were able to get down at 10 to one, and we didn’t even get the run for our money, but I’ll tell you what JK, I don’t think it would’ve made a difference. . Was fantastic. This is a horse who you have already predicted will be the Breeder’s cup sprint winner this year.

I thought you were as nuts as when you pick jaywalk in the Oaks when you first made that prediction, but you get the last laugh with this one, cause  just look good. I can’t imagine you have any reason to doubt your previous highfalutin predictions for this runner. No, I think he’s, he’s a special, special horse.

And, and here’s, what’s interesting about this race, right? Uh, and, and I don’t know, I think maybe Nick tomorrow set it up when I was on BIC with him, but he said that he would, uh, he would probably be having a temper tantrum on, on, on his, on social media. If a horse wired in this race, horse didn’t wire. Uh, but, but they did the next best thing to get Nick fired up, which is they ran one, two, three around there with promises, Phil Bobby’s wicked one in , which is something that no one could have predicted.

And I really need to figure out the math and the science behind why this constantly happens, where these races that look like they have to fall apart. And they don’t. Um, but totally was wonderful. I think, you know, he’s dangerous at six. He finally has some time form us S figures that I think people will, will respect and, and not give him such a hard time for all the balloons.

I was, I was doing that. Yep. Um, he was magnificent. And, uh, and the thing about him with this performance, man, I’d love to see this horse running the met mile. And five weeks, um, based on the way he ran here and, and, uh, we’ll see what happens. It’s definitely a good, it works out good, right? With him. You try him in that race, in the met mile in five weeks.

And if it doesn’t go well, then you just cut back to the sprint races at Saratoga. You’re not missing anything, right? Yeah. It’s a great idea. I would imagine. I haven’t heard, but it would surprise me if that wasn’t the plan. Do you have any inside info? I haven’t seen him. No, I haven’t seen any quotes.

Obviously the internet and Twitter are full of Starbucks cups and Deek and Derby and Derby DQS. I haven’t seen anything about the met mile yet. Why is the tenor of the conversation so unpleasant on Twitter? Why can’t people accept the idea that reasonable people can disagree about this Derby DQ for one thing, right.

And the idea that you can hold two thoughts in your head. At the same time, we used to have a guy on the show who would forget from time to time that you can hold two different thoughts in your head at the same time that might have contradictory elements. For instance, you can feel bad for the West and still think that absolutely the right decision was made.

And you’re not an idiot for agreeing with some or part or all of that statement. It just, I don’t know why, where we went wrong in terms of. In terms of discourse. It’s almost like how, when you’re walking on the sidewalk, maybe less so in a place like New York, but even I think this analogy holds, there’s like a certain amount of respect you have for other people when you’re in like their same physical space.

Right. And then you’re driving in your car and like all respect for other humans goes out the window. People are far more. Aggressive and mean, and less compassionate in general, like in a car, as opposed to like walking on a street where you have to like look people in the eye and like the same is true with discourse.

Things that would never be sad in an email or a letter LA people are just more than happy to just be completely inconsiderate and just compassionate and out and out rude on, on Twitter. And I don’t get it. JK. Can you explain that to me? That’s shock, man, you know, it’s shock value, right? It’s like it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, being a, being a jerk is much more shocking than, than, than, you know, being civil and trying to, uh, be respectful.

You know, it’s a lot, it’s a lot, it’s a lot more fun to, for people to read the other stuff. The other thing I’ll tell you about horse racing that I found out that I found this out and I, and I learned it in a study that I did on the, on the, on the, on the previous podcast that. Part of the reason why people get so frustrated and carry away on Twitter is because unlike most of like the people that we kind of surround ourselves with my opinion, get satisfied pair of mutually.

Like I feel, I feel reward and disappointment para mutually through, through, through wagering. So I don’t need to like, Be the guy who, who picked the, the 48 to one shot. And then I can bang my chest about that because the chest banging will happen para mutually, if I’m right. Right. And so it’s like, there’s so many people in this game, that’s a such an opinionated game it’s built on opinion and we definitely don’t want that to change.

That’s what makes it so much fun. But they feel like they have to scream their opinion at the top of their lungs because they’re betting $5, one place show, even if you’re betting real money. It is the idea that it’s more important to try to win an argument or show how clever you are in a game where we have this opportunity to do it with money.

It makes me think, and this is probably. Part of what it is, is that a lot of the people doing that type of thing, whether it’s extreme chest beating or we’re talking about just like particular nastiness and need to be right and have the last word, the kind of things you see in some of these Twitter conversations that they’re not the actions of winning players, are they?

No, I’m talking to me wrong and I’m not, I’m not perfect. I get sucked in at times and get carried away with things, but. Um, I try to make it more reactionary. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t typically. I think my lead off tweets are usually always pretty good. Now there’s some, there’s some responses I might not be proud of, but I think my lead officer are typically pretty good.

I feel bad about the guy. I mean, the guy was being a jerk, but instead of my usual ignore, he caught me just at the wrong moment when I was juggling six things at the end of the night and was still sort of confused about what’s happening, the guy I cussed at and blocked. I do feel a little bit of guilt about that.

Nobody’s perfect. What are you going to do? We live and we learn from our mistakes and he probably deserved in any way. Derby day, undercard stakes, J K uh, we don’t need to go through everyone went well. It’s cherry pick a couple of thoughts and I’ll let you go first. Well, I’ll tell you what I thought bowl recall was phenomenal.

Um, and then I looked at time from us and I thought she was like slightly less phenomenal. Cause they, they did have the sixth for a long time from us. Had it, um, had it red, uh, cause she came from so far out of it. What’s within seemingly what? We’re slow fractions. I still give her a ton of credit. I still think she’s an absolute race villi and Brad Cox has really got her going in the right direction.

Um, and I think she’ll make some noise and give Chad something to worry about this summer with, uh, with some of these races that I’d imagine she’ll get up to Saratoga and run against the run against those. And I thought I read was, was rotor perfectly. I mean, when he’s on, man, he, he, he could do some real special things sometimes.

And I thought that ride was beautiful. She was fun to watch. Uh, me and mischief was a horse that I didn’t have anywhere. And, and she galloped good for her. Marley’s freedom was trying her tail off, um, fun to watch her, like I said, that NBC NBC angle, you can really see her just trying and digging and digging and, and just didn’t happen to get there.

Me and Misha just ran so well. Um, and then the last one that I thought was really impressive was digital age. I thought digital age, he’s one of those horses that is a good explanation or a good study, a case study for. How do we, how do the figure so slow in the horse still shows so much talent while, while you know, getting those slow figures and then comes back and runs the big finger we’ve been looking for against, you know, the, the talented field that he did.

So a lot of fun on Saturday, a lot of good races, a lot of horses I’m looking forward to, to watching that some disagreement in the figures there with digital age JK who only got a 90 on the buyer speed figure scale, I’m guessing the time form was higher based on what you’re saying. One 12. Yeah. So that’s, I mean, that’s similar.

That’s similar. Yeah. You went from, he went from 80 time for me, us to one Oh one time for us to one 12. So I think sometimes, and creds mentioned this before. I think sometimes. They’ll they’ll, they’ll kind of hold back a little bit when it comes to age, not so much class, but they’ll kind of hold back when it comes to two year old, whole back when it comes to early three-year-olds maybe that’s why that happened.

But, uh, digital age was unbelievably impressive. I don’t figure so tricky on the turf. Anyway. Be interesting to talk to Sean Borman on a future show about how some of these horses finished. I think you can see. Very often more ability in how those horses come home than just what the final figure says for various reasons.

We’ve talked about a lot on this show and we’ll continue to talk about it in the future, or we move on to Oaks day. I’ll just, uh, take a little Mia culpa. We didn’t talk about it too much on air, but I was in that camp that Instagram kind of couldn’t lose. Uh, did love Mr. Money, the way the Matisse brothers both made and Hugh JK may compelling cases.

And I did end up saving my bacon para mutually in the race, but my actual opinion that Instagram was the goods. I think it’s time to move on from Instagram. For me. I think I’ve just about seen enough. Have you, uh, I mean, you’ve been skeptical all along, so I imagine for you, you just got to feel smart and hopefully cash the bet on this race.

Um, yeah, I’m not used the horse a little bit defensively, um, and on the pick six and stuff, but, but I also went six deep and the pick six with, uh, with, uh, with a, with a horse that was even money. So, um, that’s, I feel like, I feel like I took a stand against them. I just didn’t want to have other prices and not have Instagram who could have won by 20.

So. He was bad. I mean, never in the room. Yeah. Bad. Yeah. You never get no run for the money whatsoever. And is that not, uh, if you put the Matisse picks together, especially what Paul was saying, who floated the idea of getting rid of Instagram completely? That’s a, that’s a $200 exact for two for the podcast.

Courtesy of the Matisse brothers. And you, is it not close? Yeah. Close to the trial. I don’t, I can’t remember who ran dream maker. Yeah. None of us gave DreamMaker a call. So. It’s still the all button. Yeah. No, it’s all good. Yeah, no, I just, I think I, I think I made a comment about how. I thought about maybe playing the try with, with, with Instagram out.

And so I that’s why I was, I was highlighting the fact that that wouldn’t have been hit. I hear what you’re saying now. Yeah. I was like, what are you turning your nose up at? Uh, there might be a lesson to learn about your own play. If you’re worried that a $2 hundred, $201, $2 trifecta isn’t enough. And you’re going for that 50 cent.

Try for. Six 50 or whatever the heck it was, right? No, that’d be a little too greedy in the wrong way, but if you did mention it on the show, that’s smart. It’s the kind of thing we want to start doing a little bit more of, we move on so quickly, but sometimes it’s fun to go back and look at picks that we made, whether successful or unsuccessful, you can learn a lot going back, deconstructing your plays.

We’ve talked about that concept of grading wagers before for horse racing. Maybe that’s something we should make a little bit of an effort to do a bit more as the season develops here. If you’re game, what do you think JK. In 2005, I walked across the stage and university of Texas, and I said that there’ll be no more grading of anything in my life.

This could be a notable exception. All right. We are running out of time. So we are going to give short shrift to the Oaks here. Serengeti Empress wins the race with an 88 buyer. Uh, meaning it’s a slow Oaks. If you go by the buyer scale, but boy J K hard not to come away from this race with just a tremendous feeling of relief as a sports fan with positive spirit being able to get up and, uh, and walk away after a scary heel clipping incident and neither jockey nor Mt.

Apparently harmed. Thank goodness gracious. Yeah, absolutely. Manny, uh, Manny kind of rolled right out of that thing. And, um, and the outriders got, got positive spirit locked up pretty quickly and I actually didn’t see it, but I did see that Michael McCarthy tweeted something about them being the real heroes and how quickly they got positive spirit, uh, got positive spirit, uh, wrapped up.

So that’s, that’s always encouraging. Um, as far as the winter Serengeti emphasis, I don’t know if I told you there’s not Pete, but I made a, I made a, I made a, uh, A mint Julep in an induced wager with Craig Berneke on the way back from the Oaks, telling him that Serengeti Empress will never win another race.

So, uh, I mean, I’m hoping I’m either right. And I can remind him or that he’ll forget and I’m wrong. You’ve got odds, at least, I assume you were on the no prop and I’m home on the no, no. Did you get odds? No, not not enough, but here’s why, here’s why I’m on the no is because those big races that they’re gonna try to run her in, you know, they’re going to try to run her in grade ones.

They’re going to, you know, I don’t know if they’re gonna try to cut her back for the eight Quan, but that’s going to be a challenge to cut her back in the acorn. We’re, you know, for a horse who’s, who’s bled through Lasix before. Um, they’re going to try to run her, you know what? We’re going to try and get her to the Alabama going a mile and a quarter, not ideal for a horse who’s bred through Lasix.

And then if I feel like as a grade one winner of Kentucky yolks, when things start going wrong, she’s going to have a quote unquote issue and go home and be a mom. Right. It’s a cheeky, cheeky, cheeky, a little move by me, but it was more, uh, at a frustration that Craig hit the button. I didn’t have her Tom Amos so much that I’m definitely rooting against you in this bat.

And I love that, you know, one of the first things out of his mouth, this interview clearly emotional, clearly a win. That meant a lot to him. I don’t know, Tom personally, I don’t know if you’ve worked with them yet on the Fox shows, but, uh, our buddy Brent, some came up under Tommy. Amison just says nothing, but the nicest things about the guy truly sounds like one of the good guys and showed it.

I thought in that.  interview by very quickly off the bat, talking about, uh, how the, how he was concerned about positive spirit first and foremost, which is kind of amazing to not have more self-interest than that. Anyway, I just thought it was another great example of horse people, really caring about horses.

Unlike what you hear in some corners about, about us slash them. But Serengeti Empress gets the win. Curious to see what happens next. You said something a little contradictory there, your word, the bleeding through Lasix made you worried about both the cutback and the stretch out. How can that be? Well, no, let me explain that.

So going of the flat, mild, um, with sprinter stretching out and that type of deal off of five weeks rest, you know, that’s, it seems like a physically taxing thing for hours that, that, so that’s, that’s kinda what I meant by that. Um, just kind of having to go, you know, she could, if you don’t the lead in the acorn, she goes go 45.

Right. So that’s obviously. More of a challenge and go on the, you know, 46 and four that she went and the, and the Kentucky Oaks, and then obviously the mile and a quarter, it’s just, you know, have that extra, that extra eighth of a mile. I’m just, you know, it’s, there’s nothing scientific about it. I’m just saying, I think I’d be worried about her at any distance based on the fact that she did have that incident.

And now as you point out, she’s so valuable that the first sign of trouble might make me, Hey, it’s time to go be a brood mare. So I, I take your point, but I don’t think for me, the distance would have anything to do with it. It’s more just. Something I’d be concerned about generally a couple more on here.

We got to talk about, and then I’ll throw it open, but we will skip some stuff going to skip a grade one here and go to McKinsey and the one Oh nine here and a race where I was sure he was beat on the turn. I, I, it was misread one of many things I got wrong on the weekend. I just, I misread what was happening in this race.

He got off that rail where he didn’t look happy, finished like a horse. Who’s the favorite for the breeders’ cup classic. What did D do you see what I’m saying? What was your reaction during the race with McKinsey? What do you think happens with him here? I hope that knowing guy with that Twitter account, like poorly age racing, I hope he hope he looks that up.

My tweet, when I said that McKinsey was gonna win the Breeder’s cup classic. So, um, look, he did look uncomfortable down there. I thought Mike was, wrote him perfectly at the beginning of the race, because he never really put him fully into the race and going into their first turn, but he kept his nose right at, at Tom to tots hip so that Tom couldn’t get over.

And then once they kinda got into the turn, it came out of the turn and then Mike ease him onto the lead. Then he kind of, you know, then Toms, the taut ran out of began. So he kind of took him back and then got him in the clear. One of my favorite parts of the entire ride was. Um, I had mentioned that, uh, that, that I had kind of was doing some work when I was looking to make that big wager on those two horses.

Yeah. And I noticed that, that, you know, Mike. Uh, use the stick on McKinsey on February 2nd in the slop, when he got beat by battle of midway and McKinsey, his tail was flashing. And then if you watch the mile and a quarter big cap, and if you watch the race from Friday, Mike never, ever uses a stick on him.

And it’s, I think it’s a, uh, it’s a, it’s a wonderful example of, of Mike just being attentive and paying attention and, and I’m sure other writers would have done the same thing when they found something out like that. But yeah. But, uh, that horse was doing all of that on his own courage without having to have any reminders or encouragement, um, when it comes to a crop, I think he’s, I think he’s a special, special horse that’ll continue to get better.

And what better barn would you want to mend for a horse to the target? Like a Breeder’s cup classic? No doubt. Mike is a great horseman. Um, as well as a great jockey. I mean, they’re obviously interrelated, but I think he does show particular skill in those regards. Did you think he was in trouble? Did you think he was beat around the Turner?

Was I just nuts about that? Um, no, I mean, look, I, I thought he was okay. I thought it wasn’t ideal. I don’t ever like to see a horse get shuffled, but I thought he had had a perfect trip up to that point and he kind of got shuffled without trouble. And it was, it was almost like Mike did it on purpose. So it gave me a little bit more like, uh, okay, he’s going to be all right.

And then that blimp view, man, you can really see in that view when he asked him and like three jumps, he was even, and I knew it was over it. Good read concrete, Rose defeats, newspaper of record. You know, the master of the obvious here would be, Oh, maybe newspaper of record was short. As we’ve talked about Chad Brown doesn’t really run short horses.

What do you think happened here? Uh, with concrete rows in the Edgewood. Well, a concrete Rose is a, is a filly that, you know, she had a coming out party last fall and had Keelan and, and, and she was the only horse that I can remember going into the Breeder’s cup that, that anyone thought had a shot of being newspaper of record that day.

She got a really weird trip down inside on, on what was obviously a dead inside on breeders’ cup day. Um, she comes back, she went out, she had the great race Tampa and look, I mean, it wasn’t even really close. Um, she kind of blew her doors off and, uh, and that was pretty shocking, but, uh, like we said earlier on, on the other show, very, very happy for Beau and, and Ashbrook farm with, with, uh, Philly, uh, that he, that he picked out.

I think he paid like $60,000 for, and, uh, I’d imagine she’s well worth over a million now with, with that performance. So I guess the big question is what are we going to see with newspaper of record next? Is she gonna. She going to hop on the plane? I don’t know. I mean, it, it didn’t sound the rumors. So I was hearing was she was more likely to stay in New York at this point.

Anyway, I would think having a setback would even make them more likely to take a conservative financially prudent route like that. I was wondering about concrete Rosen and if you’d heard anything and I guess we can work through connections and try to figure this out. If they think about going to ask it now with the sort of double whammy of.

Uh, you know, having a chance to do something truly, truly crazy wild and fun, and going over there and maybe not having to wait and see if newspaper record somehow comes on for this run. Any predictions about what’s going to happen from here with either of these fillies? Well, I would imagine concrete roads will stick around, uh, you know, rusty Arnold is a, is a, is a conservative type.

I would say, you know, he’s not, um, Yeah, he’s not, you know, he’s not, uh, it doesn’t seem like the kind that’s going to, you know, do anything crazy. That’s going to jeopardize the rest of her career. I don’t think going to ask it jeopardizes anybody’s career. Well, you know, but I’m not, I don’t think jeopardize her career either, but I also think it’s an aggressive move for a guy who’s not an aggressive trainer and that’s fair.

There’s a bunch of, there’s a bunch of races with, with GS and ones that are here that. That she can run in that they can do a lot for her as well. So probably can knock some of them out sometimes. So I wouldn’t imagine they’ll go, um, that’s that’s overblown, but you know, you make some other good points.

The media, the New York stuff is, is I think is, is attractive enough for, for a affiliate. If you’re trying to get some great ones. Uh, and, and, and, you know, she doesn’t have a great one yet, if I’m not mistaken, I believe that her race at Keelan was a grade three or grade two. And, and so she, she still needs to go ahead and grab one of those.

And I would think they would find their best chance to do that here. What about newspaper of record? You just hope that the, that the Philly does come on for the run and the, or that there’s something that can be tweaked to make up those three plus lengths she’d have to find with concrete rows, assuming they both run in New York next.

Well, yeah, I mean, I still think the newspaper record is unbelievably talented and can really do some freaky things, um, in the right direction. And here’s the thing with her is we, you know, we watched the race and I, and I was with, uh, Craig Berneke, who obviously owns and breeds. And, and my perspective as a horse player was, I wish they would have let her, I wish I read with a letter open up by six.

Yeah, I get that. Now, Craig, as a, as an owner, And, and someone who has a lot more to say, when it comes to a career and a resume builder, he pointed out. And I think he’s right too, is that’s, that’s not how you want to teach her to run in the races. You’re going to try to win with her later in her life. So it’s like she’s already a grade one winner.

So why completely ruined her by teaching her these bad habits? In a grade three, that doesn’t really matter. Yeah. I mean, it’s a great debate because at the same time, the idea that you can’t win grade one races, wire to wire on the turf, I mean, you’ve got to be a superior talent, but I mean, as you’re saying that, you know, Frankel of course pops to mind that I know he was obviously a once in a decades, a talent, but I feel like newspaper of record had kind of indicated that she might be.

That singular. I mean, it sounds crazy to compare it to Frankl, but it doesn’t feel, even though I know it sounds crazy, it doesn’t exactly feel wrong, but it’s, I mean, it’s an interesting debate and I get, I certainly get where he’s coming from. Maybe though they’ll try different tactics next time. And maybe the result will be different.

What do you think. I mean, I don’t think it’s Chad’s style, either training, you know, I think he wants to, that’s how he trained his horses. That’s how, that’s how they always work in company. And they’re always on the bridle and they, and from what I’ve heard, they’ll get yelled at. If they, if, if one of them gets off the bridle or, or runs away from the other one, he wants them together all the time wants him to learn, to shut off and Quicken and that’s.

And what that’s, what’s so special about newspaper of record is that her natural ability, he put her on the front end. But then she can still do what other Chad horses do and Quicken and finish. Um, and I just wonder if Iran was a little bit too comfortable and too confident in the situation. You know, everyone who walks the race will tell you the exact same thing.

And if they don’t, they’re lying. When he looked, uh, one to 25, she was gonna win by 17. She was one to 20, a hundred percent. And, and then within a 16th of a mile, It was a hundred percent determined she was gonna lose. Yeah, that’s right. And you know, she went from one to 20 to lose, uh, you know, after the 16th.

So. I don’t know, I just it’s, it’s one of those deals. It’s that American federal game on dude thing. We always talk about that. It’s not so much the jockeys dilemma, because he did open up by two or three. So I, you know, but it’s, she wasn’t extended though, right? I mean, I think it is the jockeys dilemma in its own way with extra.

Confused a little extra confusion thrown in because of some of the factors we’ve already talked about, but you got to look at the long-term goal versus winning that race that day. I mean, that makes me think of lady Pauline, not winning in the prep day at, at, uh, ask it the other day. Did you watch that race?

I didn’t see it, but you did tell me about it. I mean, it’s the same idea that like, to win that race that day. I feel like a more aggressive ride would have been more likely to make her win that race that day, but some $7,000 race, ask it on a Wednesday, whatever it was. That’s not the goal. They’re looking to win at the Royal meeting.

And if she’s going to be good enough to win at the Royal mint, he’s probably going to have to parse out the speed a little bit more. Um, so, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting to me the question, I don’t know the answer, but I’m just saying if she opens up by six, seven, eight lengths, which really are we talking about?

Newspaper of record cut. She was, she was fighting Iran early, so she wanted to run a little bit more early. So she wasted a little bit of energy doing that. And then by, for me, by opening up by eight, you put Julian in an unbelievable position with concrete rows about when he supposed to move. Yep. And all the pressure on.

Yeah. And he still times it correctly, he blows buyer and, but it’s not going to be the different outcome. She was going to get beaten no matter what. So. That’s the, that’s the horse player’s view of it. But, uh, I understand Craig’s view when you, when you, when you’re trying to have a career, here’s the other thing you said something confusing there.

I don’t understand what you mean when you say she’s going to get beaten, no matter what that was, you were still in your hypothetical. What I think you’re trying to say is that strategy, you believe as a horse player while you understand why it wasn’t employed, you believe as a horseplayer that, that opening up that being more aggressive would have given her a better chance to win on the day.

But if it, if you do that and it doesn’t work out, you look so bad. And I think that’s why people don’t, he would’ve got roasted. I mean, I don’t remember who wrote Bobby’s kitten and the juvenile turf, but whoever, maybe it wasn’t, maybe it was, or, but maybe it was Javier, but you know, that that’s how they look bad, you know?

Cause he left Bobby just roll with no 22 and 45 or whatever it was. Um, and I remember a quote somewhere that like Mr. Ramsey said, I’ll never ride another one. It’ll never run into the Ramsey horse again. So I see why they don’t do it. Yeah. And we saw what happened to Joelle with hidden scroll. So here’s what I will say though, is that if you want to get newspaper of record to win the mile and a quarter Belmont Oaks, Letting her rock and roll at Churchill in a grade three is not a smart thing to do.

That’s right. If you’re going for 10 furlongs and longer, I see the Craig’s point much more than your initial horseplayer gut, but I do get where you’re coming from. I don’t think it’s crazy with what you’re saying with your horseplayer gut. And I don’t know, maybe this is one of those where there isn’t really a happy medium.

You kind of have to go one or the other, but I always, uh, I always try to look and wonder if there isn’t something in between. Anyway, I want a prediction from you. Okay. I feel like next time I’m going to have to be against newspaper of record because I have all these questions now and I think she’s going to be so short.

I don’t see, you know, assuming she’s gonna end up at the same spot as concrete rows. I think I’d be more concrete Rose. W w where would you lean in a rematch? Um, it’s just going to depend on, on like training and like, yeah. I want to see what, what happens with concrete. I mean, with concrete rowers from the here and now what happens a newspaper of record?

I still think she’s an unbelievably talented horse. And we got originally ran, like somebody run like three or four times in our life. So there’s still a whole lot to be learned about her. It looks, she’s not analyze it or analyze it’s not her, but analyze it was similar. Right. It’s like, he was so brilliant when he’s a two year old that he came back and he kind of had some hiccups.

And then it just seems like towards the end of his year, last year, Chad started to figure him out a little bit. And he ran so well in the, in the, in the breeders’ cup mile. So. I just think that there’s probably some things that needed to be figured out about newspaper of record, and they learned them.

And, and, and now hopefully they can, they can try to move on forward with her. I’d still stick on her bandwagon as being the most talented three-year-old turf filly in the country. But I can tell you right now I’ll be rooting for concrete rows and all of her races, um, that she’s at interesting. Well, that’s some grade one fence sitting from you there.

JK. Thanks for that. We’ll we will, uh, we’ll have to see what happens. It is fair to want more information along the line. All right. We are out of time. I’ve kept you longer than I said. But did you have any other thoughts on the Oaks undercard that you wanted to share before we, uh, where we wrap up your portion here, I’ll give you a Derby undercard thought and I want to give, I want to give this shout out to, uh, Chris  the Piper at the Gates of Dawn.

He, he has, he has been quoted as saying. That hidden scrolls. Next start will be on the turf and he will air and he didn’t have no inside information. That is, uh, that is a pure prediction from him. And I’m interested to see if that, if that comes, uh, comes true, it did seem bizarre to rate that horse again.

I thought the whole point of going sprinting was to let him roll, but. I, whatever I maybe PIP it. I was onto something here. I don’t want to give up on him. I’m certainly not. By the way, giving up on newspaper record. I was just saying, I’d be scared. I imagined all the hype. She might be favored again. Okay.

That’s concrete right back in that hypothetical I was giving, but we’ll see where they both show up. I I’d love to be well to, to root for both of them and, and, you know, under the right circumstances, bet them as well. Right. I’m glad you mentioned hidden scroll. We’ve talked about him enough on the podcast.

Did you see any excuse for that? And then this’ll be the absolute last thing I didn’t, I didn’t see an excuse. Um, just, uh, you know, look, it’s, it’s annoying when here’s very annoying thing that happens in a world, right. It’s annoying when people have an opinion and then like you have a different one and then they think they’re right.

Cause their opinion like kind of came true. But their reason for having the opinion was wrong in the first place. I believe that, Oh, I hate that so much. Like hidden scroll. I loved hidden scroll, not because of his slop debut. I loved him because of the race in which he ran third, when he went stupid fast.

That’s why I liked him in the Florida Derby. Not because he won on a gold rail in the slot, blah, blah, blah. So like when people are like, you know, and even one of our, one of my best friends in the world, Jake balance, he like loves the idea that, that he said, like, you know, you can’t trust horses who break their money in the slot.

Fair, but that’s not why I liked them. So therefore you may be right, but you’re not right over me. All right. Well, go have lunch with those jokers. Tell Jake bowels, who you just mentioned, Jake bowel of black type thoroughbreds, by the way that, uh, that I tell Sam hi, and that, uh, I feel bad. He has to hang out with YouTube jokers and the three of us we’ll go do something cool soon.

You’re going to get Sean Borman real upset and mentioning, mentioning stadium. All right, we’re going to take a little break. And when we come back, we’re going to have a guest it’s probably going to be Pat Cummings. Did you ever wonder what it would be like to own your own professional sports franchise?

Well, we can’t offer you that, but we can offer you the chance to compete in thoroughbred racing at its highest levels. Black type thoroughbreds is a new public partnership that can put you in the winner circle. For more information about thoroughbred ownership, contact Jake Balas a black type thoroughbreds go to black type tb.com for more information that web address, once again is black type tb.com.

And now to welcome the executive director of the thoroughbred idea foundation, Pat Cummings, Pat, how are you today? Just a few run of the mill days in your life. I’m sure. That’s right, Pete up standard. It’s steady as she goes, not much happening lately. My favorite joke about this situation, it’s just been so insane.

Just being, you know, in the pub yesterday, I look it up at the TV at 15 minutes on ESPN, about horse racing for something that well, I’m not going to argue, shows us in the best light in the world. I’m one of those who thinks the controversy is kind of interesting and gets people asking questions and wanting to be involved, as opposed to this being a sky is falling thing.

There is such a thing as bad publicity. We certainly saw that earlier this year in racing, but I’m very much of the mind that this does not fall into that category. And it actually is going to give the Preakness ratings a boost if only maximum security were running, we’d really have something. Huh? Uh, it’s true.

Uh, and just to, to, to speak on that one point briefly, I did catch, uh, ESPNs around the horn on Monday, uh, where they talked about the issue and, and quite interestingly, uh, the, several of the reporters on the, on the segment suggested that it was refreshing to see a major. Top flight sporting event where the quote unquote referees didn’t swallow the whistle that they said, you know, we hear so many times that in the end of these big games, so to speak that the referees just kind of let it all go.

And here was one time where. Where they came out and applied the rules completely accurately and made a very tough decision. And to hear that coming from some fairly esteemed sports journalists, I thought was refreshing. It is such a hard thing when I’m trying to evaluate the steward’s performance because it was brave and it was correct, but it’s hard to get to rah raw in terms of how, I guess, I don’t know what happened.

Maybe they immediately went into. Fear of lawsuit mode or something, but I felt there was that, that lack of transparency, the lack of taking questions. That’s, they’re not doing themselves any favors with the stewards as hero’s argument with that stuff. What do you think that’s all about? I would say also the, the, these reporters qualified afterwards and said that that was a, that was a debacle.

And I completely agree it was, but let’s be honest, Pete. Um, our industry nationwide continent wide, uh, stewards are not accustomed to facing the media. They don’t often have to speak about their decisions, simple ones or challenging ones. Uh, I think this is part and parcel of a, of an entirely, um, Of a push that we really need to see transparency, openness to the public far greater than what we have seen most, most recently having stepped away from American racing for three years, been in Hong Kong and come back.

One of the overall feelings I’ve had about American racing is that we generally don’t take ourselves seriously enough. Can we kind of poopoo things we move on quickly. We just bounce from race to race. Um, Without really kind of stopping to save a, really the process on some of these things and taking things a little bit more seriously.

I think there is an opportunity that we could do that, and I would be shocked if next year or next decade, whenever the next foul claim is in a major race on national television. If the situation as to how the stewards deal with the media. Is not dramatically different than what we saw on Saturday. I have a question for you.

This is embarrassing that I don’t know this, and it shows the complexity of these things that even on some fairly basic points. I think I might’ve been saying something that is not correct because of the differences in rules in various jurisdictions. My initial gut, I was under the impression that the reason the interference was deemed worthy of a DQ was the idea.

Of the likelihood that it costs a horse in this case, war of will a placing. And it wasn’t just that in Kentucky, a foul is a foul is a foul. What’s the reality. Let’s put it this way, but the reality is murky because there was a failure to announce the second foul claim from John court, which one reporter yesterday indicated based on his reporting was actually the first fell claim.

So we, we, there was no inquiry. That’s. Seems problematic. The only, uh, objection that was announced, and frankly, even the video of Travis Stone’s race call and the subsequent aftermath shows that the stewards tell him that the foul is seven against 20, when really it was 27 and he got that correct. And NBC has confirmed that their staff, their reporters and their producers.

Knew nothing about a foul claim, 18 against seven. So everyone was operating on the belief that there was a Falcon 20 against seven, and that was it. And frankly, on the merit, purely of country house against maximum security, there is no case. Okay. So when the decision was made to demote the seven, all the way back to 17th position, it was like, But something else has happened here because there was no inquiry or at least one that was announced.

And the objection that wasn’t announced 20 against seven was only second against first. And on the pure video, that was not, you know, there was no case as when I was standing, I was standing down in the owner’s boxes and I was watching the video very closely on the TV. And I said, if the one, the 18 or the 21 were claiming foul against the seven.

Then there’s a case. So it then became clear that the stewards ruling in their post-race announcement, uh, was such that they believed long ranged Hottie. Was cost the opportunity for a better place interested in altered the finish. I mean, that is weird to me cause I don’t really like that. I mean, I don’t think it did cost long range, toddy placing, you know, we’re dealing with a horse that was the, I thought was beat at the time of the incident.

Am I wrong about that? Look, I don’t think you’re wrong about that. Um, but it’s the rule. Um, and the rule is suggesting that if you could potentially be of the belief that this horse maybe should have been 15th or 14th or 13th, if he steadied and lost all momentum and then never gained it, that, that potentially this horse.

Uh, was cost the opportunity to, to finish slightly better than cure letter of the law. That was a, it was adjust emotion on the part of the steward. So I frankly don’t have an issue with the ruling based on a strict interpretation of the rules. And don’t forget, Pete, there is always an element of vision that the stewards need to have.

They need to determine something. Regardless of the category that’s in place was this horse cost a better place that requires imagination that requires them to look at all of the circumstances around it. And this is why I get, I also don’t blame them for taking 21 minutes, 55 seconds to come up with this.

Um, they have to be of a belief that, that action. Did eventually cost long range, Tati 15th or 14th or 13th or 12th. So whatever it was, they have to, they have to, their job is to assess on all of the circumstances, what they believed. Could have happened if that interference hadn’t occurred, placing to mean in the money placing, but you’re saying that the way is, and I don’t know if that’s different in different jurisdictions again, it’s so confusing the way it is in the States.

So when I was saying it didn’t cost them a place and I was talking about. A top three or the top four, or at least an in the money placing, but in the way you’re reading, it could go all the way back. I also, by the way, just to make it perfectly clear, have no problem with the idea that war of will was cost that placing.

Is it your, is it your understanding that if they don’t post an inquiry and they’re only looking at objections that that information was basically irrelevant. Like it didn’t matter what was going to happen with war of will and what they were looking at. They were only looking at the writers who claimed.

Not having spoken to the stewards and not having that insight. I would make that belief that yes, that they were not looking at war of will. And considering before will was impacted, uh, that they were only looking at 20 versus seven and 18 versus seven because there was no other announced inquiry. There are some rather.

Um, troubling procedural issues that I think the Kentucky horse racing commission’s going to have to address here. And frankly, all jurisdictions in North America are going to have to address again, because this has happened in what is essentially the world’s most prestigious horse race. The one that gets the most attention globally, you know, this is, this is exacerbated.

The issue of it’s blown everything up, but for the customers that. That bet $11 billion a year on our sport. Uh, I’m sorry. Um, one person’s dollar is, is valid and, you know, uh, bet on a 5,000 claimer, $25,000 optional claimer, uh, grade three rates as it is in the Kentucky Derby, you know, the is a dollar and we are all.

All do that due process. Um, and, and I feel based on the videos that we’ve seen and the situation as it has an, you know, an uncovered that there’s just this lack of really well homed, uh, very professional, very serious approach to the adjudication of the sport. And that’s something I think we’ll all need to look at as an industry to consider how we could do this better in this country, but we’ve got wires and years and years of stewards not facing the public, not going on camera, not explaining decisions, not even posting decisions on, on websites of, of.

Commissions, et cetera. There’s very few that do that. Actually. Some of the ones that do are rife with mistakes and misspellings and, you know, it’s just, that’s not the way the rest of the world operates, uh, in a professional manner and we can do a lot more. And that’s what I wanted to talk to you about really why I brought you on.

I figured I’d pick your brain about some of these other issues, but it seems to me like this is a pretty good, I don’t know if you want to call it a test case, but for the difference between the category one and category two stewarding. And the position that you’ve advocated in this, on the past. Talk me through how this would have been dealt with the situation in other racing jurisdictions just very quickly.

So the, the first part, uh, Pete that we have to address is that number one, you cannot legislate for everything for every single set of circumstances. It’s impossible. So keeping that in mind, uh, there are two systems globally. Okay. You have what we have in America. And the problem with that system, regardless of how you, what categories you believe is better is that from state to state, there are differences in wordings and language that compel the stewards to do different things.

That is an inconsistent practice. Okay. As I, as I referenced it earlier, it would be as if the NFL judged the pass interference penalties, based on the rules set by the stadium where the game was being played, right. That pass interference at the Superdome was different than passing a Felix at FedEx. You know, so, so that’s basically what we have today.

All right. What state’s rules are a little bit different than another, the category that’s under the category. Two mindset that America applies, which is if a horse was interfered with impeded or loss, and that costs that horse, a chance to finish slightly better, 17th or 16th or. Second versus first, uh, then a demotion is warranted in category.

One. What the stewards have to review is very different. Okay. It’s not did this interference cost the horse a better placing, no matter where in the field, that was the stewards. Look at one thing. If the interference had not occurred and they say the poorly wasn’t appealing for this case. Okay. But if it hadn’t occurred, With the horse that was interfered with have finished in front of the horse, the DB interfering.

So I think the better example to assess the Derby is then in the case of let’s see, the inquiry side was raised. They’re looking at war with will. Okay. They’re looking at the D at the interference from seven against the one. And I’ve actually been told this specifically by the Sierra of international, uh, Harvard is each and it breaks the rules committee who polled of a set of Coble stewards that under no circumstances would any of the stewards in countries around the world have said that based on the category, one rules that they could believe that war of will.

Right. Maybe if he’d rerelease and got, was getting back at him at the wire, there are circumstances where it would have been a DQ, but Warrenville would have had to do something after the foul to make it seem plausible that he was going to win that race. He did not do that. Therefore it, I feel like under the category, one rules very easy to say who the best horse was on the day.

We’ll leave it alone. Uh that’s essentially correct? Correct. Correct. It’s not a criticism of the Kentucky stewards at all. They applied the category two rule appropriately in category one, however, war of will believe it or not, or if we’ll actually recovered quite well from the incident. And he was right in the mix for across the track approaching the three 16th pole.

Um, and then in the latter stages of the stretch drive, he began to fade. So the stewards were of the belief, uh, or the international standards that there, there was no way that the students could believe that Warren will, would have been ahead of maximum security who actually really kicked on very well on the stretch.

Um, and as such, if we were operating under category one rules, They don’t believe there would be any change. And that, that is a fairly universal opinion. Makes sense. I mean that the maximum security clearly rebroke, as we see many service horses do and was really won the race pretty well. And under those rules, yeah.

It doesn’t seem plausible at all that I don’t think you’d have any disagreement really about how the, that the race would have stayed as it were under those now. I feel like from a punter’s point of view, there’s no doubt that there’s the international standard is the better one. The concern that I have about it.

And let me ask you one other thing, if make sure you make sure we’re on the same page about this. A big part of the appeal is you’re asking the stewards to play God so much less. There’s one position they have to worry about. Instead of worrying about trying to predict what would happen would have happened with every horseback in the field.

So part of the appeal is making their job easier in a funny way. That is an unquestionable benefit of category one, Pete and I have the, uh, Both the pleasure and the opportunity to speak at a continuing education. A two day conference for stewards here in America, a couple, a couple of weeks ago, uh, to talk both about the.

Prominence in the consideration of category one and also the need for stewards to become more transparent and, and, uh, approach, uh, stewarding slightly differently. And there were about 57 racing officials at the conference about 40 of them were stewards. And, uh, first off, uh, not one was critical of the category.

One approach. That one was critical of the need for more transparency. And what I found very interesting is that in the, uh, they had some, several, a video review sessions where they looked at different kinds of controversial, uh, calls and they assessed both what happens under the current rules and what would happen under category one.

So I think that’s very interesting to know that at least in that group, the 40 Stuart that I was with. They were all asked to, to view the rules under, as they exist now and what the rules would be and what decisions would make if it was category one. So this is already excellent. Uh, I think they vape like the category one approach.

It’s a much more straightforward standard to what you Decatur waste by. Let me get to the one concern that I have, and it has to do with. Potentially equine and human safety, because I feel like if riders have the confidence and we’ve seen this in some prominent races in certainly in the UK, In Ireland that the writers have the confidence that the result isn’t gonna get chucked out.

I worry about there being more aggressive to the point where there might be some concerns that the category one approach might not be as safe as the current category. Two approach. I’m not convinced that this is the case, but I think it’s something that needs to be interrogated. What are your thoughts about that first from an organizational standpoint, from the third word idea foundation position, uh, the suggestion to move from category one or from category to category one spouse back in our November paper, all of our papers have the support of our full board and that board includes hall of fame jockey Gary Stevens, and, uh, Very successful jockey, Donna Barton brothers, both of whom also represent their professions, uh, on television.

And, uh, neither Gary nor Donna would support something. If they believed. Uh, it would jeopardize safety of writers. So I think that’s a great supporting element of, of the potential for category one. Now, part of this dialogue T uh, has to revolve around some of the language that we use, uh, and I’ll get to, this has to do directly with safety in America.

We use the term disqualification very frequently. When you say the sources from first to 17th to second, eighth to ninth, whatever. Internationally, the word disqualification means simple, different. So every time I speak of it, I speak of the term, the emotion, the stewards that demoted maximum security from first to 17th in the international standard, they didn’t disqualify.

A disqualification or the international standard means they remove the horse from the race as if it wasn’t there. It would be as if, uh, an Olympic runner, an Olympic sprinter had brokenly, uh, uh, had violated the, the starting gun. That horse is disqualified. That runner is disqualified. It’s like, they’re, they’re taken out of the ways they didn’t even participate.

Okay. That’s important because there is a, that’s all provision in the category. One model supported by the international Federation of horse racing authorities. And that States that if the rider of a horse jeopardizes that senses of another. Through direct intentional behavior, something incredibly reckless.

It says, I, you know, the jockey walks over his shoulder, sees a horse coming, pulls his horse out into the path of that other horse and drops the horse. That horse in that race will be disqualified, plucked from the race they weren’t even there, not the last, just completely removed that is. The catch all safety provision that exists that a win at all cost or any cost behavior by the jockey set out to be tolerated for the safety of those participants that we look to.

We’ve seen examples of, of jurisdictions, which have moved from category to category one to see what’s happened with this kind of STIs safeties. And have they experienced any of those incidents? Have they increased the question on my list? I’m glad. I’m glad you went there because I was curious, you hear things anecdotally, but you know, anecdotes don’t compare to data.

So if you’ve got that on that, I’d love it. So Japan later switched roughly five. They have five full years of data. Okay. Since Japan made the switch, which by the way, their switch Pete was prompted by a demotion in the department cup. When, when the way to Vista one, that Japan cup, I lengthened three quarters.

He was demoted behind the second place finisher for, for what would otherwise be? Not all that agreed this interference, but it was a pure category, two interpretation. And Japan said, you know what? We just can’t do this anymore. And that was the impetus to really make the change had happened in midair, probably one of their two greatest races.

Um, since Japan made the tunes, there has not been a single horse is qualified. Where the stewards believe that the jockeys, uh, behavior was intentional and it stands to jeopardize the opportunity for a horse to, to continue along in a way. Uh, I think that’s very compelling information. Now France made the chains there that they in Germany are the two most recent, uh, European jurisdictions to make the change and all of the data for German.

I do have it for France. That’s three December the first full year. No, the category one also on a single disqualification. I’ll have a horse for, for, uh, for the jockey riding in a, in a dangerous manner that, that jeopardized, uh, others. So I think that’s compelling information that, uh, these two major jurisdictions who run a lot of races.

Has not had to the stewards have not had to make a decision, uh, to disqualify again, using that term on its global, uh, usage, uh, a horse, uh, for such to be angry. Yeah. You’d think, yeah, very interesting. You’d think if it did, in fact, create more dangerous conditions you’d that would be showing up in the numbers.

And then I also think about the things that happen to my mind that are really dangerous under the current category, too. Standards. I don’t know how you feel Pat, but I’d love to see hurting eliminated. I think it’s horribly dangerous and the kind of thing that currently almost never, is there any action taken about it?

And I feel like day to day, that’s creating all kinds of peril for jockeys. Is there any way do you think under category one that. That could be somehow legislated, that type of hurting that we see all the time. I feel like in American racing could be gotten rid of. I mean, is there some way that the changes that happen here are actually going to improve equine safety and human safety on the race track?

In some way? I, I think without question, uh, that PO, uh, concurrent with a change in the rules from category two to category one, the regulators and the jockeys. Must have an understanding that the penalty structure will be, uh, defined to a much greater extent and more significant than it’s ever been in the past and in, so doing will create a much more, uh, a safer culture through proper deterrence, uh, that are graduated as they, uh, simulate.

So as, as a writer, Accumulates more careless writing sergeants that. The penalty structure increases at an ever at a worsening rate steroids or not steroids, but performance enhancing drugs of any kind in baseball. You know, there’s a one infraction a month that it gets up to being, to being banned for a, for a year or whatever it could be.

And. You know, as we’re talking this through, I got part of this idea from talking to some of my friends over in the UK and Ireland, including my buddy, Rob dove, one of the top 10 pro punters in the UK today. And he did talk about how he did believe you did see a bit more rough riding horses being shut off, et cetera, but with the kind of penalties you’re talking about, and the difference also in just how much purse money is available to our riders day in, day out.

I don’t think you’re going to see people taking more chances. I think as you’re suggesting, it’s going to be the exact opposite. They’re incentivized to take fewer chances because even if let’s just say a cheeky owner is going to say to a jockey, you know, don’t worry, whatever you have to do, I’ll make it worth your while.

At some point, that’s just not going to work when you’re talking about missing out on half a year’s pay with what the pers structure is in America. So I I’m, you’re done a good job here getting me to come around to the point of view that I actually think not only would it not be less safe, it actually might be safer on balance at the end of the day.

Yeah. I, I think that’s really what it comes down to Pete that, um, when you have a new system of adjudication that is easier for the stewards. For the jockeys for the horseman, for the racing fans, and certainly for the betters to understand, um, on balance, you have a better system. There are, again, as we started this conversation, not every situation can be legislated away.

There might be times where, um, the Kentucky Oaks, for example, Okay. I think, I think we have to talk about that. Um, Jay walk was demoted from, from a think about six position to last, uh, the stewards believe that by causing, uh, the fall they’re from positive spirit, uh, the Clippy wheels, um, that, uh, you know, that, that says that horse, you know, basically doesn’t have a chance of that race now under category one.

There’s no change. There would be no change if jaywalk had won the race and there’d be no change of jaywalking finished next to last. Okay, bye. Um, but that doesn’t mean that actions won’t be taken, and this is the same, let’s loop this back in. Yeah. We can loop it back into a discussion of size and maximum security.

The race result would have stayed, but that doesn’t mean the stewards aren’t going to be. Looking at that and giving days and punishing a move that was deemed reckless, but it doesn’t affect, it gets the message across it doesn’t affect the bedding result. It’s cleaner. It’s easier to enforce. So you feel like in both those systems, let’s just do it as a theoretical under the category one world that you envision, Pat, what would the penalties that would have been doled out in the Kentucky Oaks and Kentucky Derby looked like?

I didn’t prep you for this, so hopefully you can do it off the cuff. Look, one thing that has to be factored into this is, is what the re race riding record of the jockeys in question are at any particular time of an incident. So if a jockey is coming into an incident where they’ve had seven careless riding and maybe one, what we would call dangerous riding or reckless riding charge.

Earlier in the year, uh, than the penalty structure in a race of this nature would be far greater than a jockey who may be only has one careless riding charge on their record for the year. So, uh, this is the, the, the, the, the process that I experienced at Hong Kong, which I think is absolutely the gold standard where, and I’ll explain it for careless riding, which is the most basic penalty a jockey can be charged with.

The initial penalty is a two race day suspension and a fine of one half of one days, average daily earnings. So, so whatever that jockey has earned over the course of the racing season, or if it’s the beginning of the season, they look back to the previous year, whatever they earned the penalty for the fine is one half of one day’s average earnings.

Which I think is very interesting because it’s a graduated structure there a top jockey one half of their average daily earnings would be a bigger number than say a jockey who was one for 122. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s fixed appropriately to, to be, uh, the earnings of that particular rider. And a two day penalty in Hong Kong is essentially one week it’s one race week.

Um, that’s the base penalty. Okay. Uh, With a second offense. It’s the same penalty, but with a third offense, it starts to go up fourth offense. It could go up. So if you have eight offenses, it might be six or eight Hong Kong race days. That’s a month. Okay. And that’s just for a very basic careless riding charge.

Now, if you get into reckless riding, Or dangerous riding or incompetent riding, which are different terms that are used, that are increases over careless riding that the base penalty may start out at a month or two months. These are all things that are part of the discussions that need to be had these penalties.

And this structure is in place to protect the safety of the participants in the race. Jockeys should be incredibly supportive of measures that are designed to make it safe as possible. For those who are out there, all the track, the deterrents are in place that if you have had to wear free careless riding charges, You didn’t really think twice before you get that fourth one, I’d have to sit out for twice as long as you’ve been sitting out before you mentioned the Donna reaction, the Gary reaction, and that’s a great sign, but I’d really want to know what the rank and file jockeys think about this.

And the top jockeys. Think about this. I mean, we know the sort of culture of the patrons of the jock room. It does seem like if you get the top jockeys, people will, will fall into line. Do they. Did they approve of this? Do you have any information yet on, on what their view is going to be? Look, having discussed it with, with Gary and Donna.

Certainly the there’s a belief that, that this is, uh, this is what’s needed to maintain the safety of, of everybody that’s out there. Um, but I would point to the, to the incident regarding Pako Lopez at Gulf stream park is a very interesting case where you had jockeys going on to Twitter saying. This is outrageous.

This is reckless behavior that is going to cost someone their life. It already sent a young apprentice to the hospital for weeks as has ruled him out for months. Career may never be the same again. We don’t know when you have jockeys taking to social media, imploring stewards, so to assign a meaningful penalty to one other rider, um, That to me says that there’s a belief that there’s someone out there who was performing in the month, uh, and that, uh, you know, when it got that far, you know, that that was really quite problematic.

And I think this all goes back to the line that we, as an industry have not taken. Our self seriously enough. We don’t have formal protocols for increasing penalties and, you know, delineating between just careless versus reckless riding versus dangerous riding. And there’s a lot there, Pete, this isn’t easy.

This isn’t going to be easy. These types of policies to enforce them into apply them. It takes work. It takes people sitting down in rooms and really hashing it out. But it’s worth it. This is our industry. If we’re not taking ourselves seriously, that’s right. That’s a great point. It’s not easy. It shouldn’t be easy, but we have a great opportunity to improve the future.

And frankly, that’s why I’m back here in this role. That’s why I’m excited to be doing what I’m doing for TIF. To be having these discussions to be, uh, what we think is on the forefront of really presenting positive, uh, improvements and change to an industry that frankly desperately needs after talking to you.

I don’t understand the case for being against this. I think you address those safety concerns that we’re sort of nipping at the back of my head very well. We’re going to end this just with a big macro question. Uh, the Kentucky Derby disqualification situation, Pat was justice done under the rules as they are written.

Yes. Are those rules the best rules? No, that’s very, very well said and very succinct, Pat Cummings. Thank you so much for taking time out to join us today on the end, the money players podcast. Thanks Pete. And that’s going to do it for this edition. I’d like to thank Jonathan kitchen. We’ll thank Pat Cummings of the thoroughbred idea foundation.

One more time. I want to thank 10 strike racing and the thoroughbred retirement foundation. Most of all, I’d like to thank all of you for listening. Wow. What a week we had on this show last week, the numbers crazy again this week. I thank you all for making that happen. Keep those questions coming. Use the hashtag ask ITM.

We’ll get to as many of them as we can. This show has been a production of in the money media in the money media’s business manager is drew Kotani. I’m Peter Thomas foreign Italian. You went all your photos.

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