Show #39: Derby Recap – To DQ or not to DQ, That is the Question

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Hello, and welcome to the, in the money players podcast. I’m laughing because this is so absurd. It’s show 39. It is May 5th, 2019 a Sunday. And I’m laughing because. You know, what a run of the mill, Kentucky Derby. We just had nothing interesting to talk about. I guess we’ll just kind of recap the races and, you know, try to find something to talk about over the course of the next 45 minutes or so kidding.

Of course, Peter Thomas foreign to top back with you in the Brooklyn bunker, once again. Very happy to be joined by my comrade in arms. He’s been called the worst person on Twitter, but I think in fact, he’s one of the good guys. He’s the people’s champion. Jonathan Kinchin JK. How’s it going in the Wars with the trolls?

Oh, man, I’m telling you my new move is my new favorite move and it’s it’s, it’s it’s infuriating. I think to people is I, I send a DM and then I block, so I get the last word in and then I just block them. I did the dams or like the dude, like seriously, buddy, like what you texted me four months ago. And we were friends.

And now suddenly I’m this. And then I ended up block it’s fun. Well, the DM block move is good. You know, I’m always an opponent of the block. I feel like it gives a weird amount of satisfaction, but recently I did have a situation like that, where the discourse was just so uncivil that, I mean, granted, I was extremely uncivil back, but I realized, you know, how can I get out of this?

Oh, I’ll just send my uncivil remark, say, this is the last interaction we will have. And then block and I’ll literally never hear from them again, which is wonderful. Anyway, don’t know how we got down this rabbit hole. This fast, my fault. I’m sure. Hashtag host fail. The Kentucky Derby was run yesterday, JK and it was a result that has produced an amazing amount of discourse, hue, and cry, whatever you want to call it, country house in the end team PTF.

In our little Derby pool runs first and second with country house and code of honor. Uh, it’s quite a story wide. Didn’t end up having the exact, uh, let’s just start with the most basic question. Should maximum security have come down in the 2019 Kentucky Derby? Um, yeah, I think the answer based on the rules that we have, the answer is yes.

Um, and then the simple. Up to that is in a perfect world. Um, do we want the horse, the best horse in the race to come down? No, probably not. But at the same time we have, we have horses and riders that need to be protected and whether it was negligence or just a horse being, uh, being a horse and deciding he wants to go right.

Instead of go left. Uh, we, we have to make sure we protect the riders and, and, and the, and the horses. And, and I think that. The one thing that I’ll take away from yesterday is there’s Olympia. A lot of people that are going to be disappointed and frustrated and new players have come to the game and, and people that only come to our game, a couple of weekends of the year are going to be disappointed and not understand what happened, but I can tell you right now that maximum security being disqualified has such a sick, like a such, such less of significance than if war of will, would have went down.

That would have been the end of our game as a whole. We’ll be over this, just like the people in new Orleans got over the same thing it’ll happen. It’s just, it is what it is. The saints thing. J K, this happens in sports all the time, this idea. And there’s so many of them out there on Twitter, these geniuses who’ve decided that this is bad for the game.

That controversy is bad for the game. I think it’s the damn opposite. If I’m being honest with you. This is something I would much rather be talking about than Santa Anita. You can’t name a sport where there isn’t crazy controversy. Honestly, if anything, it feels public interest. Whether we’re talking about an NHL five minute major or a pass interference that wasn’t called in the end zone and the last minute of a Superbowl, or as you, uh, the other sports analogy that you quite rightly referenced there.

It’s not this controversy is not bad for the game and the way that these people are making it out to be, but that’s a whole other tangent that was about eighth on my list of things to talk about. Let’s talk about the specifics of this incident. It was very hard to see properly on the pan for me, J K.

And in fact, even when we had our first conversations yesterday about this, I hadn’t seen the head-on at that time when you watch this head-on what do you see? Well, I saw at first flight, I saw it live and, and, and, uh, you know, I was a little bit past the wire on the third floor, so it’s a pretty good angle.

I sold a horse come out, but I guess it wasn’t enough. And I was so concerned about like, where are the other horses that I was actually alive to money where, and I kind of just went ahead and my eyes went to try to find them. And then once I saw them looking at it and you know, the conversation starts and it’s, it’s fun.

I was sitting around a bunch of. Industry types. I was sitting with Donata Lanny, one of the best, uh, you know, agents out here. He buys all these horses for Baffert and, and I was with Craig Berneke and, and, and, and Chris Pivoto. And so the conversation started with like, Oh my gosh, is this still going to happen?

Are they really going to take down the Kentucky Derby winner? Did it really matter? Then we start going into the, all of the things that everybody else is thinking, Oh my gosh, what if it was mot or pleasure? Would they take him down? There’s all these different questions, in my opinion. When you look at it, he clearly interferes with war of will with long range Tati with Bodhi express and a little bit of country house.

Now I think we could all swallow this whole pill a lot easier if his interference was clearly, if country house took the brunt of his interference, it feels better for us mentally. But the problem was is that that didn’t necessarily affect. Country house as much who was the second place horse, and eventually the winner, um, war of will and long range tidy looked to be kind of slowing down a bit.

Maybe war will had an argument. Um, but I think that, I think it was clear. I think the, I think the, the trouble was clear. Great stuff. JK. I think you said that very well. There’s so much to unpack here and I’m going to start off. I didn’t really think. That country house was affected. You think he was? I mean, just a little bit.

I mean, not look, look not enough that if that was the only situation, do I feel like maximum security you should have come down? I don’t believe that maximum security cost country, house of places. I do think that the question is, did he cause war of will from running second, third or fourth? Did he, did he prevent long range Tati from running second, third or fourth or Bodhi express?

Second, third and fourth. I mean, I think the answer is no. I mean, none of those three horses, in my opinion, we’re going to get to the winner. You don’t think Warren, well, you don’t think he costs more of Willow placing? I probably think he did. We’ll come in. We ended up what? Seven, eight? Yeah. That’d be different if he was like on the board.

Right? I mean, the look he had, he had already had his momentum completely stopped. I mean, that works. It’s a miracle. The horse, as you pointed out already, to me, it’s a miracle. The horse didn’t go down. When I watched it again on the head-on I was frankly shocked now. There are other views of this Sean Boreman, frequent guest on this show and our good friend.

I mean, this is a guy who was watching more races than me does this professionally nine times out of 10, I would defer to him and not like almost even give my own opinion because I respect his so much. And he is of the opinion that this was much more of like a. Every day situation that you see this all the time with horses getting out and you’d put it basically down to race, riding that he didn’t find significant and felt like if it happened earlier in the race, hardly anybody would have noticed in this one case with Sean, as much as I respect him, I couldn’t disagree more.

I thought this was extraordinary. The word I used in our text message was egregious. I thought it was really bad. It didn’t look to me like a jockey, not controlling a horse. It looked to me like race riding that went too far. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I mean, I think Sean’s point and I think some people’s point, um, I remember the, remember the joke.

I told him the show about a week earlier this week, where I said a friend of mine called and said he wasn’t to take out all this obnoxious money from the bank and bedded on maximum scale. Well, he did it anyways. Oh, poor guy. Oh, I don’t mean to laugh at that. So I, I texted this morning and I said, Hey.

Look, I didn’t really have a dog in that fight. I mean, I had a dog in the fight. I was alive and probable for like 75,000. Um, but I didn’t have a dog in the fight as they, as you know, w and what’s going on here with country house and or with, with, uh, maximum security. So I wanted his perspective as someone who it actually affected financially.

What his opinion was. And his opinion is I w w is, is I’m assuming what Sean’s is too, is like, I’ve seen worse than this happened on a Wednesday at aqueduct, and they don’t take it. That’s not the right way to look at. That’s not the right way to look at the world, to me, the other problem, which is our stewards problem that we always say.

Is that it’s not so much the decisions. It’s the inconsistency from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. What somethings a take down in California is not in Florida. A take down in New York is not there. They’ll allow hurting and so-and-so, but they won’t allow it here. If it starts, if there’s a trouble at the gate.

That doesn’t really count. They’re the buyer in situation. It’s the inconsistency that has everyone’s so puzzled and I’m assuming that’s what Sean’s perspective is not so much that the horse didn’t affect a war of will, but that it wasn’t necessary to take down the winner of the Kentucky Derby, the clear winner and the clear best horse.

Um, I think that’s kind of what I hadn’t talked to Sean about it, but I’m assuming that’s his, that was my first thought when watching it. In the pan, especially I did not think Doris was going to come down. In fact, I might’ve even been a little, I don’t know if I said anything on Twitter. I might’ve just favorited.

There was somebody made a point about, you know, stewards, how can we not the first default should be, you know, basically to leave things up, to not affect the order finished. I might’ve even favored at a tweet. They got somebody all fired up who was in the no-brainer DQ camp, but I’ll tell you what, as I watched more and more I’m I’m in the.

Fairly firm given what the rules are, no brainer DQ camp. I think we’re very lucky as you already intubated JK that we didn’t have one of the worst incidents in the history of horse racing here. And those horses and riders, especially riders who were in behind, they deserve a lot of credit for. Avoiding what really could have been, um, an absolute disaster that we, that we nearly saw.

So many places to go. You mentioned Byron to me, Byron was a no brainer DEQ that they decided to leave up. This speaks to the inconsistency you’re talking about. I don’t think J K it’s even, I think it’s worse than it’s. Jurisdiction to jurisdiction, frankly, with a lot of these stewards, it’s day to day in the same jurisdiction, it’s unacceptable.

And to compound it, the lack of transparency, the idea that you didn’t have stewards answering questions. Even today, I haven’t seen the steward statement yet, but the idea that they were like, Oh, and we’re not going to take questions. This idea of like, Covering your backside from whatever legal action they’re expecting at the expense of doing what’s right.

And being transparent to the fans and betters of the sport. It makes me kind of sick to my stomach. Your thoughts? Yeah. I’m not really a fan of, of, of, of no comment. Um, you know, you owe it to the EO, to the betters. You owe it to the, to the connections you owe it to the fans too. To let us understand the decision that was made, um, hiding behind, uh, uh, just throwing up the rule and, and saying that, you know, it was the rule and here it is, and follow here’s our statement.

I prefer them answer some questions and honestly, if they would do things like that, we would all have a better understanding for what we’re doing and what we’re up against and what their, what their, uh, their mindset is. And I’m also a believer in when you’re forced to say things out loud, it makes you.

Reassess, whether what you’re saying is correct, but if you can just keep it in your head and keep it private, then you don’t really ever have to face that. So I’d prefer them have to say things out loud and if it comes out and what they say sounds stupid when it comes out of their mouth, then hopefully they’ll take another look at it and try to reevaluate some of these rules and try to figure out what we need to be doing differently.

Um, Obviously, this is a great opportunity to, to, to point people to who are interested in this conversation to, uh, a white paper that our friends at the thoroughbred idea foundation did. Um, talking about these, these stewards and these demotions and things like this. So, um, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of information out there to, uh, if you’re, if you’re feeling hungry for it, we’re going to dive deeper into that JK, but I’m going to start the conversation as we pivot here with a very simple question, who in your opinion was best in this year’s Kentucky Derby.

I mean maximum security and it makes me sick because I still, I told the Brits to lay him. I had British people contacting me about what their bets are. I’m like, if you can get, if this is on an exchange and you can lay this horse in single digits, do it granted, you know, they get the money in the end, but they were very lucky to get the money because I agree with you.

I think. I mean, you can make cases, you can look at game winners, ground loss, to be perfectly honest. I haven’t done the normal amount of work I would want to do on looking at all these trips for a, in the money players podcast, a Derby recap, because this issue is so like, we have to talk about this now, but there are trips and there are cases to be made for other horses.

But I’m with you, man. I mean, maximum security. He did things. I did not think that horse was capable of doing carry on. Yeah, no, I, you know, and I’m just, I’m frustrated. I kind of wish he would have, they would have kept them. One of the reasons I was, hopefully it would keep him up. It’s like I have a great bedding against opportunity.

I don’t think code, I don’t think a country house will, will be favored. Um, um, funny enough, what do you mean in the Preakness? Yeah, I don’t think country house will be favored in the pregnancy. He will definitely be favored in the Preakness. I mean, that’s crazy. I don’t think Maxim security’s going.

Yeah. Even, even with no maximum security. Yeah, I do not think he’ll be favored. Interesting. Well, we’ll, we’ll have a little head to head on that. Here’s my example. Right. And this is not a great example. It’s a completely different situation, but it’s not like it’s never had, there was a little Philly called Rachel Alexandra in mind that bird’s preacher.

Right. And I don’t know if I don’t know in the streets, since Kerlin race, I want to say Curlin was favored. I’ll tell you what though. Giacomo was like a price and the Preakness to your point. So, I don’t know, maybe you’re right, but I think it, I think you’re going to see three horses back from the Derby and country house will be the one who makes sense.

I don’t, if, if maximum security, if they were to run again in the Preakness, I agree with you. But I just, the impression I got was that maximum security was going to take some time, but it’s an interesting conversation. We should probably pit we got, we got three weeks to talk about that one. I will say this.

This is just another side that I don’t, I don’t want to forget, but. And I don’t know if you even know this, but after the Oaks, I went to the Oaks with, with Craig and, and so we got back to Lexington and we were going to go to a party like, Hey, as parties, you know, friends of mine are having whatever, if you guys want to go.

So, um, girlfriend didn’t come to Oak. So I was calling her to tell her, Hey, we’re going to go to this, this, these people have a Derby runner. We were at a party. And she said, which horse. And I said, you probably don’t know, and it doesn’t really matter. The horse has no shot. Well, it was the, the country house people and we went to their home and it was great.

We had a, it was like, it was a really fun party. I got to meet Jamie Roth at L and J Fox woods and got to talk to a bunch of fun people. It was really cool. Um, but I felt bad because I gave him, I was, I was at their house enjoying there. Enjoying their food and drinks. And the back of my head, I was, I’m looking at all of them.

Say, you guys have no shot tomorrow and hopefully you enjoy this party. Oh, that’s great. Well, I’m sure there was a much bigger party. Uh, last night, let’s go back to Byron for a minute. And this idea of the inconsistency, I believe that that level of foul racking up horses, the way that Byron did the way that maximum security did.

I mean, to me, it should just be. A foul going a DQ every time. And at least under the current rules, we’ll get back to the rules in a second. Um, yes, we do see worse go on punished, but why don’t we come up with rules that make sense and are easy to enforce or easier to enforce. Don’t ask the stewards to play God about an incident in the first hundred yards and whether or not that affects the outcome.

I mean, it’s dirt racing. So to me, that’s where the real running happens in the first hundred yards. Absolutely. Byron was very live. You can’t say for certain that he cost horses placings, but just using any kind of logic, it did was very likely to cost horses, placings. It should be a DQ to me, similar in this case.

Are you okay with that idea? I mean, am I taking that too far? I mean, no matter where in the race it happens, should that level of racking up coming over multiple paths, we can debate how many paths it was. There’ll be another question for you later in the show, but when you’re Blake, I mean, blatant interference should result in a DQ true or false.

Uh, look, I have a seven year old. You’ve got a young one, four or five-year-old look, is she sick? Yeah, she’s six. They’re almost the same age. He’s just more mature than she is to be fair. No way. Here’s the thing. When you, when you allow pairing, I allow Austin to continuously like do something and then they figure out they can get away with it.

It’s just human nature. And I think the same thing happens in racing. Yeah. That makes sense. These guys are loose at the gate because they know they’re not going to get dqued at the gate. Right. And they actually know that in, in terms of, of, of, of risking their lives and their health. What happens at the gate is significantly less dangerous than, than trouble that happens at the top of the stretch.

When you’re traveling foil mile 40 miles per hour, you can get, you can get trampled over. I mean, you’re gonna fall off of a horse. Who’s running. W, but th they’re, they’re going four miles, five miles, six miles per hour in that first couple of jumps. So you’re not going to, you know, it’s not nearly insane.

Chris’s with these, these things that happened at top of the stretch. So I hadn’t even thought of that. That’s why that stuff happens. If you start DQ and horses from the start. Then stuff like that won’t happen, but until they do that, they’re going to continue to do those things. And that’s what happened in the Byron situation.

It’s just not a typical thing that we see where they DQ a horse from the start, because so much of these rules are based upon, is it going to affect the order of finish and in the, in the first two seconds of a two minute race, there’s a minute and 58 seconds left. For that horse to have an opportunity to win.

And I think that they view it differently when there’s 18 seconds left in the race, as they’re doing that, they’re coming down the stretch. There’s less opportunity for them to correct it. I guess that’s what they think, but it’s wrong, you know, of course, as anybody who knows dirt racing, I mean, let’s say we could give Sean Borman or.

Mike Maloney the first 10 seconds of the race to make their bet, right? This suppose a time where you, you can’t know what’s going to happen after we can’t judge, it’s going to cost a placing blah-blah-blah let’s say we let those guys bet 10 seconds into the race. They would need extra rooms in their houses to fit all the money true or false.

No, I completely agree. I mean, these races are, these races are determined. I a, a great example and a race. I’m sure we’ll talk about, at some point, is the Churchill downs sprint. When I saw them and totally sit and Chile third, I looked at someone and I think I even said it in my, I was doing like a little AVR wired thing.

I’m gonna look like a genius. I was like, this horse is going to win. It’s over. He’s going to want you to get an, a perfect trip. They’re not flying. You can tell so many things by the first, you know, like you said, the first 10 seconds of a race. Yeah. So that idea is crazy. And just because, and this is another interesting one, another person whose opinion I respect and obviously much more than my own when it comes to watching races.

Richard, Migliori also seemed perturbed, at least in his early comments on Twitter, about the DQ. And, but I suspect that he’s perturbed because he’s going by not what the like rule book says, but by the, what he seen enough of the inconsistency as seeped into his

conscious that it seems dissonant that they’d leave that horse up with some of the stuff every day, but I’d rather look at the big. Picture of life here and talk about what the rules actually say. And what’s actually fair. And what type of behavior under the current system needs to be moved out of the game and this hurting stuff, you know, we’ve been complaining about it for years.

I don’t like it. I’d love to see them get rid of that. It’s not safe. What’s it going to take for them to change the way these things are adjudicated to me when you’re doing something that dangerous under the current rules. I mean, honestly, it’s kind of a no-brainer the more I think about it. I’m okay.

Even though at the time, it’s funny for me to say it’s a no brainer DQ. When at the time I was like, eh, it’ll probably stay up granted. That was even before I saw the head-on, but. Let’s talk about the difference in the way that international jurisdictions look at things. The difference between these category one and category two rules.

JK, Pat Cummings has been on this show. He’s talked about it already. He’s been on media, national media talking about this. I really see the point of this, where you leave up. The clear winner, but you then take very severe action and punish the dangerous action through, you know, giving the rider days or fines or, or whatever it is.

But the betters don’t necessarily have to suffer. I have a lot of sympathy for that point of view. I think what happened in that race was correct. Again, according to the current rules, but I’m very sympathetic to the idea that the rule should be let the horse. Who we can deem both you and I deem to be the best horse on the day in that set of circumstances, leave him up, let his betters, get their money and then deal with it in terms of what you do with the purse and especially what you do with the jockey, your thoughts.

It makes the most sense to me because, um, when you look at what’s the consequence, right? If you look at category one or category two, say, say, you’re going to do the more aggressive approach we’ve been doing. Now, a lot of DQS de cuing horses that aren’t they’re they’re, you know, it’s just like they were going to run seventh.

It cost them a placing that whole jazz. What’s the worst thing that happens there. Um, you have a lot of dis you know, discouraged, betters you, you, you don’t reward betters for making the right choice and, and just sign it. Some, you know, logistics of the race kind of cost them the win. If you look at the other way, there’s really no negative to doing it the way that, that you know that, uh, they do it overseas, where it’s you.

Go ahead and award the winners of the race based on the performances on the racetrack, and then severely punished the riders so that they don’t do the dangerous things. It’s kind of a win-win to me, I think, you know, you can, you can get those things changed. You get going in the right direction.

Everyone’s happy. I just think that’s a much better way to go about it then than the convoluted way we do it. Now, you’re just asking the stewards to play God too much. You’re limiting what they need to look at in terms of the betting public. When you look at it the way they look at overseas, it is an interesting question though.

This is a rabbit hole and I apologize for even bringing it up. But when you we’re looking at it in terms of what do you do with the purse money in that situation? I, I do feel like there’s a case to be made that there’s so much money to be made. And so of these races that allowing the purse money to stand could be, could still potentially lead to some more dangerous activity than, than you’d want to see.

But we’ll save that. For another show, I’m going to just ask it this way. What would have happened in this case? JK, if Bob Baffert had trained back some security, you know, I hate playing this game because it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s kind of a it’s, it’s, it’s a relative of what about ism? And I hate what about ism?

Agreed and, and, and I think it’s just, it just it’s. You’re speculating on someone’s character. So essentially by saying, what if it was Bob Baffert, I’m accusing those stewards of being biased and, and I don’t think that’s really fair. I don’t know them personally. I don’t know. There. Relationship. I don’t know any of that.

I do think that, uh, in situations like in a basketball game, the, the home crowd, sometimes, you know, the home crowd influences the referees and you get calls. It’s not it’s human nature because you’re surrounded by people that want one thing. And that happens. So I think that if, if it was a Bob Baffert or a, or a shove or a, a Todd Pletcher, I don’t necessarily think it would fully have changed the decision there.

Um, would it have maybe possibly had a small influence, just kind of what that quote unquote home field advantage, you know, being, uh, being blue bloods, like they are in Jason service, you know, kind of being a little bit on the outside, looking in, I would say. Maybe, but it’s not really fair to comment you.

I mean, J K of this whole racing analyst thing, doesn’t work out, you’ve got a future in politics with that answer. Let me tell you, cause it was actually really great answer. I’m not criticizing, it was a great answer, but you absolutely dodged the question at the same time, which was what was so brilliant about it.

I got to believe Todd Pletcher stays up. Bill Mott stays up. Patrick stays up. I mean, look and I’m not. I’m not trying to, uh, I mean, I guess I am you’re right. Implicitly. I’m accusing of bias, but I’ve just seen too much. I’ve just seen too much not to be cynical. And the fact is we’re dealing with Jason service, Jason service.

I’m not going to say anything now I’ll put my political hat on. I’m not going to say anything to get myself in trouble with our, with our, with our, uh, in the money podcast lawyers here, but we’re dealing with a super trainer. Okay. So super trainer, simple definition. There there’s a lot of different kinds of super trainers, right?

But basically the idea is these are folks who win at an out-sized percentage of what even hall of fame trainers throughout the history of this game could be expected to win at this promotes suspicion that these people are taking an edge. And whether that edge is legal or illegal. I’m not here to say, but I’m saying that it definitely puts you in a different category when you can spend four months of the year winning at 45% or what ever it is.

I’m making up numbers now, but I would be lying if I told you, I didn’t think that might have played a little bit into the decision here and that’s probably putting it mildly. Is that fair maybe? Right. I mean, And look, Jason service doesn’t run a lot of horses in Kentucky either. So, uh, you know, the, the, the stewards in Kentucky might not even really be overly.

Yeah. I’m, I’m sure they’re aware of Jason serves. They might not be overly aware of him. So like the idea that like somehow his history and his profile was somehow linked to the decision. I mean, and as many times as people want to accuse stewards of being clueless, I mean, there’s a small chance that they don’t even know who Jason services.

Interesting. I hadn’t thought of it that way before we kind of touched on this before, but this idea of not taking questions or being more transparent and more consistent to me, it’s just so much at the heart of this issue. I hope that the legacy of this whole situation is that we have a sea change now where.

It’s all been laid bare. Again, I’m not in this it’s bad for the game camp. I disagree completely. I could see the Preakness ratings being up as a result of this, especially if maximum security were to go, which unfortunately, like I said, I don’t think he’s going to, but I’d like to see this being the moment where we say, you know what, we need to legislate all these races the same, and we need to have rules that make more sense.

Do you think there’s any chance of this happening? Well, usually it was like, I don’t want to call it a tragedy. Right. But these are these types of like, you know, big, um, events that get blown up. They, you know, usually they lead to change because now they start having a lot of people asking questions. You know, I, uh, I was actually, uh, I have a friend who works at a big organization, horse racing organization, and that organization received a voicemail.

From someone yesterday saying like, this is the biggest travesty in the history of racing and come on, can you cheated this person? You cheated that person and should be ashamed of yourself and  or whatever. It’s like, people are like in arms about all of this. Right? So it’s like, there’s going to be more conversations about it.

I had brunch today and, and it came on ESPN like four times brunch. I didn’t, I didn’t think of you as a brunch guy. I thought you have more of a, you know, uh, maybe have a beer for breakfast and head straight to lunch kind of guy. The, the Piper hit me up this morning. He wanted to go grab some, uh, well also doesn’t seem like a brunch guy bottle.

Well, he, he ordered a Sprite, which is, there’s an interesting selection at brunch. What do you pour into that? So something from his hip flask? No, no. Yeah, but he didn’t have this, like this like biscuit with gravy and chicken and it looked amazing. I’ll tell you what JK that does sound good. It looked amazing.

I was going to steal a bite of it, but I had a kind of Nashville fried chicken and waffle thing I had to sort out on my own. So what was, I’m sorry, three. You completely off track. What was the conversation you were having with Piper at brunch? Well, we just, we, we talked about, uh, we talked about everything.

We just talked about the whole decision we talked about, uh, you know, just, just the old, the whole thing, everything everyone else has been talking about. I’ll tell you one thing we talked about. Is the superfecta payoff was bizarre. Bizarrely low, right? Yeah. 51,000 for a 65 to one shot. A 1301 shot in the favorite out.

Well, not officially the favorite. Cause if I’m not mistaken, improbable took the last flash and went off favored, I guess, having horses who were so bet third and fourth, like the way people bet that bet having two of your three. Favorites two of your four favorites up there diluted the pain. I mean, that would be my best guess, as opposed to thinking back to mine, that birder Giacomo, where the payoffs were, what, three times that, but you didn’t have two favorites out of the four and the super right.

I don’t remember what with Giacomo, I believe a fleet Alex was in. Was he the favorite? He ran third. And then I can’t remember mind that bird pioneer of the Nile ran second. I don’t think he was a favorite though. I believe for region firewall. Yeah, Friesian fire was definitely the favorite. I think that’s the idea.

I mean, I don’t know. It’s just, it’s such a weird pool, right? I mean the same kind of pool. If it’s producing crazy overlay somewhere, it’s producing crazy underlay somewhere else. And unfortunately for, I mean, you know, unfortunately for those who hit it and hit for 50, it probably was less than they were expecting, but I’m not ready to get into that minutia yet.

JK not ready to move on from the, uh, DQ decision. Why didn’t gasoline claim foul the guy who was actually felt why didn’t the stewards post the inquiry on this, what those mechanics are really weird. And they definitely give grist for the mill of those who were like, Oh, this is an unjust DQ. It is bizarre that neither the stewards, nor the rider who was affected.

Claim foul. And I definitely get that, that fuels the fire of people in the, and again, a kid couldn’t respect Sean Borman and Richard, Migliori more, it fuels fire of, of their camp on this. Well, I think there’s a couple of things there to unpack, um, which is like my new favorite phrase to say is like, unpack now.

It’s like, great. You’ve stolen that from me. I’d like to point out, I say that all the time on the show. So, not as much as you say situation, but on the pack is close. So Tyler, in, in this situation, I did that on perfect Tyler. Here’s the thing, Tyler rides for service a lot. He rides for service in South Florida a lot, you know?

So there’s that thing that needs to be taken into account. The other thing is that war of will. Ran like what? Seven, six or seven. So in, in Tyler’s idea, it was like, why claim foul to move up to six? It doesn’t, it’s not going to change any, I’m not gonna make any more money. I’m not making any more money from my owners.

Like, what’s the point of doing it? I dunno if you said that, I’m just saying maybe that’s what he did. Think. The other thing that’s incorrect that I read that Jay Previn reported this today is that it wasn’t just Flavian that, that, that the claimed foul. Flavian did claim file, but not only did he claim foul, John court did as well on long range Tati.

So there was actually two people that claimed foul and longings Tati was affected. Um, and so I think that’s the answer to that question. The part of it I’m buying is the politics. I think that he didn’t want to, you know, based on the marginal, the equation of what he would have gained versus what he would have risked making a very important client angry.

He just thought discretion was the better part of Valor. I would also think he would’ve thought, well, the stewards are going to see that anyway. So I don’t need to claim how do you explain the stewards, not catching this in real time? I don’t know. I can’t really explain it. I mean, if I could try to say a bunch of sentences that like, make it make sense, it doesn’t make any sense to me so I can fair enough.

We can, dude. We can leave it there. What else needs to be said specifically about this DQ before we talk a little bit about some of the other stuff on the card, obviously the late week show, we’ll go into the undercard and talk about, you know, how awesome bricks and mortar is and all that. But. We’ve got a few minutes left on today’s show and I want to spend them wisely.

Obviously there’s more to talk about, and we haven’t even talked about the darn winner. We haven’t talked about master fencer, Holy Christmas, what a shocker that was, but let’s button up the DQ situation before we move on to other pieces of this race, part of me is, is, uh, it, it gives me a very sad feeling.

I think I saw norm Kasey tweet that, uh, the first time he’s ever left the Kentucky Derby disappointed. And I kind of understand what he means by that. Um, I obviously was disappointed cause I’m probably didn’t win, but it’s like, we all want, we all, I’m sure we all, not all, but most of us all wanted bill Mott to get a Derby.

Right. At some point we wanted him to get one, just like most of us want Richard Mandela to get one. And, uh, we wanted Shuggie to get his and Todd to get his and so on and so forth. I just don’t know if this is like the best way that I wanted to get his via DQ. And so I’m sure he’s got another one with his name on it.

I’m sure it’s bittersweet for him. And then regardless of, of Jason service being a lightning rod, regardless of the horse causing trouble, I feel bad for the connection. I feel bad for Louis size. I feel bad for Jason service every day. I would imagine as a horse. Train or you wake up and you, and you have at least a thought or two about winning a race like this.

And, and, uh, I feel bad for him cause the truth is no one did anything mean or no, one’s trying to harm anyone in. And even if, even if you want to say that Louis made a slightly, it wasn’t like intentionally trying to hurt anybody. Yeah, no, it didn’t. It just it’s. It’s an unfortunate thing that happened. I feel bad for the people that bet on him.

I feel bad for everyone in the whole situation. It’s unfortunate. But it’s sports and in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really, really matter. Well, I get that for sure. And again, a political response, you know, the democratic field JK for 20, 20 wide open. Have you thought about jumping into the race?

Uh, it might be easy to our current presidents we had this morning spelled Kentucky wrong.

Yeah. Let me say we don’t do politics on this show, but. There’s a lot of things. I disagree with that fellow on. And let’s just say, we’re going to add this one to the list. I was expecting to hear a tweet from POTUS capper. Instead I got one from the POTUS. What do you make of that? Uh, it’s funny. I mean, it’s, it just, it just makes me laugh.

Well, it makes me happy that that many people watch the race, right. Even, uh, even our president has time to look at it. Um, I just think it’s funny. I will, like you said, we don’t do politics here. I just think it’s funny how much he tweets. He tweets so much. It’s just funny to me that anyone in that power with tweets so much, it, regardless of what he’s saying, I just think it’s an interesting thing that he does.

And so I laughed when I saw that he tweeted amusing. All right, let’s talk a little bit more about this race. How is this race different with Omaha beach in it, your first gut on that one? Well gallops, I think, I think so. I think so too set up. I feel like he would have been in such a great spot and just would have found where others didn’t.

I mean, had I been right about this race JK? I mean, I feel like even though horses that I liked ended up in good positions, I just feel there’s not many races. I feel more wrong about than this year’s Kentucky Oaks and Kentucky Derby. I mean, improbable who I warmed to eventually. You know, just, just too many people.

I respect that kept saying the distance, isn’t gonna be an issue. The distance isn’t gonna be an issue. Well, you know what looked like distance was an issue, but also code of honor, I mean, to me of code of honor was what I thought he was with that trip. Isn’t he supposed to win? Aren’t both those horses supposed to win if they’re good now.

Yeah, I think that, I think that improbable was the second or third best horse in the race. Um, and he didn’t get a bad trip. He, he got a pretty good trip considering all things. I don’t think the distance is what beat him. I just not sure that he was as good as the winner. Good. As either winner. Right. He wasn’t as good as maximum security and he probably wasn’t as good as country house.

So, um, code of honor. I thought did get a good trip. And you notice like right when, when maximum security comes out and does the, does the, uh, does the bumping that got him in trouble also comes back down pretty quick and kinda sh not really shuts off code of honor. But he tightens them up down there. Oh, interesting.

Johnny was trying to make that real. I’ll have to off to watch that again. That’s not right. Oh, I saw it in the, in the views that I’ve seen so far, but obviously I respect your opinion. I’ll take another look. I thought code of honor had no excuse. I thought he was supposed to win from there. I thought improbable was supposed to win from there.

I do not buy the idea that I think there were. More horses with trips that I would probably say I would take from inability point of view, more than improbable. I, I just feel like he didn’t really want that. I just feel like he didn’t see out the trip. I feel like code of honor. Didn’t really see up the trip.

I mean, that’s how, that’s how I saw it. We got to talk about this master fencer for a second check. K a horse who, well, you know, we have forum experts from Japan weighing in that he should be 200 to one horse ran a blinder. It was huge. How shocked were you by that? Very probably the, the, his performance was probably the most shocking, um, the fact that he ran well, I think he’s the one who kind of, kind of shocked me the most.

I mean, I guess spinoff was pretty bad. That was a little bit shocking to me. I expected him to run well, frankly, he was right though. Wasn’t he, he had mentioned the buzz on, around spinoff and by my standards and he felt like they were short horses, short and stature and, um, not wanting. Neither ran very well.

Yeah, he did call that we had so much good information on the shows we got to, obviously we can’t get out of here without giving some props to country, house, a horse. We spent a lot of time on, and even in the mega pod, the monster pod, I should say we, uh, w Duke made a compelling case for him. He kind of got off.

Uh, based on the post. I don’t know if he ended up off maybe when he saw 65 to one, maybe he got back on. I hope so for his sake, but I mean, I think this was just a case of a horse who was improving, who worked out a trip and really ran a heck of a race. I didn’t see. The trouble affecting him as much as you described before.

I mean, I felt like he was, if I were just doing my reckoning, I’d call him second best, but still what I think is so interesting about this horse is how much room he still has to improve and how progressive I see him as being, I mean, I love this horse for the Travers, that kind of thing. What do you think?

Shocking how close he was? Um, think you was at some point he was sitting ninth. So he finally broke me. Yeah, exactly. And from way out there, I was, it was the best day to decide to do so. So. Oh, he, he, man, he was impressive. I mean, he was impressive. Even if the, if it ended the way it ended, you know, officially ended if he would have ran second, I think we all would still be Stino screaming, his praises.

I thought he ran big and he was a horse that. I couldn’t get behind because of the, the antics that he had kind of shown a number of times, you know, this year during the prep season with being green and not breaking. And those are just combinations of things I don’t want in a horse that I’m, that that’s going to be doing, what, what he, what he did.

And, uh, and look, he was 65 to one. So it’s not like there’s a whole lot of other people in the world that thought he could run. And I will say this, our friend, Pete Ritondo Jr. Did. Uh, and, and I think they, him and a bunch of his friends and family scored out pretty nice. Good with that winner. But, uh, eh, you’ll if you’re in good and he deserves a lot of credit, but I will be trying to beat him.

Uh, in a couple of weeks, your man, Karl Broberg as well, had a nice that we’re going to have to have Carl on the show pretty soon to talk about his recent win in that lone star contest and also his nice hit in the Kentucky Derby. That’s great news for team Ritondo. I’m glad that they kept the faith. I really liked the horse.

I mean, I, I, I can’t claim it at all, but I did say in my, at the racist column, you know, Each way 40 to one play this and I, but I would have in verticals third and fourth only I would, I, I, I caught myself. I would have hoisted myself on that one. Wouldn’t have worked out too well, but I don’t know. I’m not, yes.

Obviously bill Mott would rather not win the Kentucky Derby this way, but give Belmont the chance of win the Kentucky Derby this way or not win the Kentucky Derby. I think we know which way he’s going a thousand times out of a thousand, uh, as far as that goes, did you see any other trips in here? J K any other horses you’re eager to bet back either on a cutback or in the Preakness or the Belmont?

Um, I think that the task that this is going to be a ton of fun when he shows up in the Belmont, um, it feels like the, it feels like a Belmont winner. If you, if you’ve asked me, uh, be interesting to see if, if country house wins wins, uh, the Preakness. And, uh, and then we’ve got a decision to make with, for bill Mott.

Is he going to run? Is he gonna run, uh, a horse against his horse or that’s running for the triple crown? So that, that could be a fun situation. Um, and probable in game winner, both, I think, are they left nothing game winner had a real trip game winner lost a lot, a lot, a lot of ground. I didn’t really think Tacitus had an excuse per se.

Did you. No, but he was running late though. So, um, maybe, maybe a little bit, some, some differences need to be, you know, maybe he just needed to be in the race a little bit more. Maybe he didn’t really love the surface. There’s a lot of different things, but he, he was finishing best. He did catch a lot of dirt.

Didn’t he, I’m remembering now a point that I’d forgotten when I was saying how good a trip he had two seconds ago, that there was a moment there where I remember looking at him and like, he was just catching a lot in the face. And in a way that, you know, maybe a dry track, maybe he would have been that much closer.

Maybe he would have finished a little bit more. I don’t think he has any real excuse, but I like your idea of him as a bet back what’s up with game winner and how wide he seems to be every time. Is this just a horse who doesn’t want to be down inside or is this just been circumstance, the actual drawing outside posts and in situations where he’s been wide?

Sometimes I have noticed that though with horses, some horses just like. There, why didn’t you want to give them extra credit, but like, why does the only way they run? Are we at that point with game winner yet outside post Grindr grinder type? I think like that’s just, it happens like you break outside, you’re a grinder type.

You end up wide, you end up wide. You can’t, you’re not, you’re not nimble enough to get down and to get into a position and a sit in the pocket. You’re not fast enough to clear and get the lead. You just end up being three or four wide all the time. And when you’re in a 20 horse field, sometimes you end up being five or six wide.

Um, I don’t think it’s that he like necessarily loves to be out there and that’s kind of a Joelle thing too. Joel kind of likes it like that too. So I think that it might be a combination of all of those things. And, and one thing I’ll say about game when it reminded me. Is, he was a little bit further back than I expected him to be.

And I’ve kind of picked that up when I listened to one of my favorite things to do every year is listening to Travis. Stone’s call where he has the GoPro in, in the booth with them. I retweeted it today. So if you want to, if you want to see it, it’s on there, but it’s really cool watching him call the race from up there.

And then you actually get to see the inside, you know, behind the scenes of. The stewards coming in and telling him that they got an objection and then them coming in and telling them the result. And, and then, uh, and hearing Travis announce it. It was great. I always love watching those videos. None will ever be better than the first one with Nick tomorrow giving the, uh, the high five.

And was that the Pharaoh? Was it the Pharaoh? The first one too. It was, it was a, it was Pharaoh. This one. Okay. A little bit different for a variety of reasons, but still great. You know, it was terrific to have Travis on the show for our Kentucky Derby Q and a. We definitely want to have him back soon and I highly recommend folks check that out.

We are going to reserve the right to come up with more. Trip horses and things to talk about out of this year’s Kentucky Derby field, going to go a little bit wider out into our world for these last few minutes of this show. You tell me JK when you absolutely have to get out of here, but Kentucky Derby betting challenge, uh, you know, I was all about your chalk chalk double theory, JK, and I thought that.

It was a good idea. I thought that computer money would correct the odds and you’d get the value. At least when you consider the context of the contest, I think it might be time to retire the chalk chalk double strategy after not, not, not just because it didn’t work out, but because the price you ended up getting in your double was the exact same as what McKinsey paid to win that must’ve smarted.

Give us your thoughts. Reflecting on that. Before we talk about the winner. Right. Look, I, I talked to a lot of people that, that, that are pair of mutually more intelligent than I am. And none of them told me that I was going to get less than like four 24, 24 40. I heard some for eighties. So that was what I kind of went by.

That’s what I assumed. And then the other thing is that it’s Derby day. I did a very similar situation. I bet 15, $15,000 double in the Del Mar contest with Roadster and unique Bella. And they corrected it and corrected it and corrected it. And I sucked in more money because of that big bet and all of those other prices that people were that the computers were attracted to and it climbed and climbed and climbed.

And I got the value that I wanted. I thought there’d be no issue with doing that on Derby day. I bet the 16,000 in the first flash and. It started at two D started at $2 and 10 cents. There was like 40,000 in the pool and it grew and it grew and it grew and it closed at three 40. It wasn’t a bad bet.

Cause she got beat. It was a bad bet because the math didn’t get right. Like I needed it to, I could’ve just, like you said, I could have bet the money to win on, on McKinsey. It would have been the same outcome because the money that I had, if I would have hit that bet. I would have bet it all on the Derby anyways, and I wouldn’t have had country house or maximum security anywhere.

So it makes me feel a little bit better about the whole situation not having maximum security. Didn’t it? Maximum security was nowhere according to official chart. Exactly. Exactly. Just from a mental standpoint, I was beaten. I was wrong and the Kentucky Derby. Uh, no matter what the outcome of that DQ us are gonna save the newspaper of record conversation.

I do want to give props to my man, Rick broth of Atlanta, Georgia dive known on the contest scene. Since I first started covering it, he ends up with the monster Exacta via the DQ. We’re going to probably have him for the late wheat show as well. Should everything go according to plan Rick broth. Who has one keen before no stranger to contest success gets the job done in the Kentucky Derby betting challenge.

Tony, Joe, I don’t know if he would have won, but I do know that DQ affected him negatively been dying to get him on the show might have to reach out to him too. He seemed very magnanimous about the DQ on Twitter. Any other thoughts from UGK about the KTBC this year before we talk a little bit more about the specifics of what you and I were both up to this weekend.

Uh, no congratulations to, uh, to concrete roads and our buddy Bo Brahmin who owns the horse and, and, uh, pick the horse out. And so it definitely stung for me to get newspaper beat, but I was happy to see him win. Definitely props to bow. That’s a nice feeling. That was a very impressive race. No two ways about it.

You were busy, man. J K I, you were on NBC. I understand that the America’s best racing crew was following you around a little bit and uh, you seem pretty pleased with the way these things turned out. Tell me a little bit more about it. We haven’t even talked about this off area. Uh, the ABR thing was fun, man.

I, uh, we, uh, we, we met up yesterday at around noon and, and, uh, And we just hung out the entire day, we ran around and saw, saw a bunch of people. We, we had a little Chuck Grubbs stopped by champion. Scott Coles came by Frank McGaughey came by and told an unbelievably funny story that I’ll, I’ll say I’ll let him tell, um, it’s it’s the holster story.

Don’t let me forget the holster guys. Pawned his gun to make a bet. And, uh, and, uh, so, uh, you know, Frank is, he’s obviously got a million stories. We, we, uh, we went and saw Burnik, we, we did a bunch of stuff. We had a good time, so I think it’s going to be pretty funny. Um, I think it’ll be pretty fun episode.

We’ll see. That’s excellent. And what did you do for NBC? Exactly NBC. So that was, um, they had reached out to Peter Atando had reached out and then also, uh, they had reached out to the NTRA. To try to get some horse players to do a NBC digital. They wanted to kind of, you know, essentially what I was told was they’re going to kind of tell people on TV, if you’re tired of hearing about the hats, go to go to MC digital and we’re going to be talking about handicapping.

So, um, there was four of us. It was me, Scott Coles, Gary Young, the, the, the famous clocker who nabbed. Uh, animal kingdom. And he’s a hilarious guy. Funny, funny, funny guy too. So, um, yeah, it was fun. It was on, Oh, I ran into Baker Mayfield too, by the way, hopefully that’s going to be our video. He was, he was, uh, he did riders up, so I saw him when I was going to do my NBC hit.

So tell him about where I’m from. Did you talk to Baker about where I’m from? He has an exclusive deal with where I’m from the t-shirt maker who are also making the, in the money players podcast shirt. You can bond it. Oh, I know. I know I talked to him why I bonded with him, but I talked to him, uh, about, uh, his, uh, you know, Texas football and him being at OU and things like that.

So he was a really nice guy. And, uh, what else? There’s Oh, the best part of the NBC thing. I don’t know where to find that. I’m trying to find it, but they put me on stage to do the hit, right? When the turf race was running. Oh, no. And, and, and like, you know, I’m, I’m at this point, I’m alive, I’m in the pick six.

I hit and I hit, you know, it depend to one, two to one, eight to one, seven to one, and I’m alive here, you know, and there’s gonna be a big score. I got a 60 cent pick six alive. So I sit on the set and I said, look, man, you guys brought me up here at the completely wrong time. Cause there’s no way I’m not going to be able to get that TV.

With, with this race on, we turned it into a joke and I kind of talked through the race as it was on. So that’s what ended up being fun. Very cool. Well, NBC props for having JK and Scott Coles and DeRosa and the, you know, the, the team on there, but it wouldn’t be the worst thing to just incorporate that into the man broadcast.

At some point, I’m just going to. That idea of a little bit of free unpaid consulting in the money, uh, empire, what we love racing. We want to give some free consulting, more betting on the main broadcast, not a bad idea yet. Not that the main broadcast was bad, but you know, bringing that perspective into the people of America, not a bad thing in 2019 with sports betting and yada yada, yada, I could go on if I chose to, but I won’t.

How about my situation JK. We had a lot of fun at Treadwell park, West terrific crew assembled, some real fun surprise guests, including an old buddy of yours. Mike,  showing up. How about that? Oh, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Did you, uh, who, who won the country house money? How did that work with your, with your, did you do other squares or bats or anything?

We did basically a blind. We did two blind auctions, right? So we took each horse and put each horse on a chit and folded up the CIT and put it in my fancy new Goran brothers hat. And then people randomly. They paid their 20 and they got to pick the name out of the hat. And half the money went to the thoroughbred retirement foundation and a very nice guy who I’d met before a couple of years ago at a bourbon bar in New York, somewhat randomly Carl and a very nice young woman named Savannah were the beneficiaries.

They were the two in the two separate pools who picked country house props to them. I felt really bad. You’ll never believe it. In the first pool, our man who had maximum security, John Kamado, our data nerd, who’s been doing such killer work at the end, the money players podcast website, and actually had a piece in the Brits net.

Uh, paper for the four days, you know, they do the, they do their own competitor to the place with the letters since they kicked those guys to the curb a couple of years ago. And, uh, John Kamado was in their paper, which I loved. I felt so bad for John. I pulled some strings. I got him some killer. Yankee tickets for, uh, the Friday night, Friday, uh, before Preakness, John will be attending the Yankee game from Primo seats, just cause I felt so bad that he’d got taken down after all the great work that he’s done for us, but the party was great.

And the selling of those chits for charity paren took to it like a duck to water. I’m not even kidding JK there. I would have done one, but she was so into it. We did a whole other because of her. We raised a full. $400, including some extra charity money that was given full 400 bucks for the thoroughbred retirement foundation.

Pretty cool. And she may have found her lot in life. Kim, we are better look over her shoulder cause we’ve got another TRF fundraiser rare into go. We’ve got to get here. We’ve got to get one going at our school. I was a. All those Brooklyn parents. Sure. They got money. They could, they can spare she’s into it.

I mean, if she ever joined the girl Scouts, forget it. It’s going to be, it’s going to be something a little crazy. All right. Let me give you room to let go of final thought here, JK, and then, uh, off air. We’ll talk about what our plan is for the rest of the week, but, uh, you got anything else to close out this edition of the end, the money players podcast.

Um, look it’s, it’s unfortunate what happened yesterday? I don’t think any of us wanted the, wanted the, the controversy surrounding our sports biggest day, but man, I just can’t stop thinking how much worse it could have been. Yeah. And we were. We were hanging by a thread for something negative to happen with all of these eyes on it.

And we dodged any equine fatalities. And those are the things that I’m thankful for this morning. And I can say that because I didn’t have maximum security. So don’t, uh, I really do feel bad for anyone who did get taken down, but, uh, commander could have been a lot worse for our sport. The end of the day.

It’s only money. And I agree with what you’re saying, and hopefully this allows us to take a long look at these. Stewarding issues that we’ve seen again and again, the lack of consistency, the lack of transparency. It all needs to stop. Now, this is the perfect excuse to hopefully make that happen. I do feel bad for people who backed the best horse and didn’t get their money, but that’s the way the system is right now.

Let’s go about changing that system instead of cussing at people online, who disagree with us? How about that JK? Dig a PTF. You try to make me the politician look at you

and that’s going to do it for this edition of the end, the money players podcast. Thank you so much. J K. Thank you. All the more for everybody out there listening, especially everybody who listened during Derby week. That was our biggest week by far in the history of this podcast, dating back to the old website and all that stuff.

Um, because of you guys, we are really becoming something special. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And I feel like I owe every listener and anything I can do to help you. If you’ve got questions there’s anything I can do to help. I owe you for making this show, what it has become. And I just, I, from the bottom of my heart, I appreciate it.

This show has been a production of in the money media, in the money media’s business manager is drew Kotani. I’m Peter Thomas foreign, a towel. May you want all your photos and don’t get DQ.

Here at the end, the money players podcast, we are proud to partner with the thoroughbred retirement foundation. Their mission is simple, saving thoroughbred, race horses, no longer able to race, and they do more than that too. They’re also helping save people’s lives through the TRF second chances program.

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