Show #27: Tuesday, March 26 (#askitm)

PTF and JK are back with a round of #askitm. Topics include the Louisiana Derby, the choice of races in the Fair Grounds’ mandatory Pick Five sequence, the concept of horseplayers’ grading their bets, and the #iamhorseracing hashtag.


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***Please note this was done with AI and likely contains errors and inaccuracies. ***

Your listening to the, in the money players podcast.

Hello, and welcome to the in the money player’s podcast. This is show number 27. It is Tuesday, March 26th. I’m Peter Thomas for Nitel back with you. Not from the United Kingdom, but from the United States of America, not the Brooklyn bunker, but my father’s old office out here on long Island visiting my mom, parents still on spring break.

I always enjoy doing. The show from this room, and today is no exception. We’ve got a great show for you today. Brought to you by our friends at the thoroughbred retirement foundation. One of the charities I recently ran the London half marathon for we’re going to be getting to some live audio. From that race in a minute, we’re also going to be talking about the Louisiana Derby.

Lastly, we’ve been overdue in getting you some of your hashtag ask ITM tweets answered. We’re going to do a lot of those on this show today, and that should be okay. Show only guests today while he’s not a guest. He’s really a co-host. You know him, you love him. He’s coming in from the planet, Texas, the most electrifying man in all of handicapping, the people’s champion, Jonathan kitchen.

What’s up my man. Um, I’m very interested to find out if your final time was influenced because you only had five CCS, IPA, and the jockey wasn’t allowed to carry a whip. I need to know. If those, those factors influence your final performance, CCS, VPA, that’s not exactly going to get the blood pump and JK.

I don’t make the rules PTF. I just know the law.

Oh my goodness. All right. J K, let’s talk about your weekend a little bit. Don’t get into any specifics about the races. We’ll be getting back to that, uh, some fun stuff going on and he interesting wagering opportunities, contest scores, et cetera. I’ll tell you what I, uh, I had a, uh, an unfortunate run-in with the mandatory payout at fairgrounds.

Um, had a couple of tweets about that, where I expressed my frustrations, that it was a five race sequence of all maidens. Um, I feel as if they did that intentionally, of course. Uh, and I, and I had a conversation with Gary Palmisano who was obviously involved with CDI and, and involved with, with fairgrounds.

And he’s probably their closest, uh, connection to the horse player, with his involvement as a horse and, and also the, you know, him, his surroundings group. And I just felt to me, it was done for two reasons. It was done because, because the leasing office, then the powers that be, feel like that’s what the horseplayer wants.

They want chaos. That’s what, that’s, what is considered a quote unquote good betting opportunity or it’s just a complete disconnect. Like what’s relevant. To the horse player. And it was more of a marketing play looking for that big score so that they can then market that big score to carry on with this whole jackpot situation.

That’s taken storm in our industry with, with only two institutions, really holding two institutions at a high level that are holding Pat and that’s Niara and Del Mar I mean, I don’t know of another $2 pick six anywhere, and maybe you can correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t know of one to be fair JK. And it’s a loss for.

What I would call the serious horseplayer ad HorsePlayers don’t want to be bedding blind maidens. That’s crazy. And the idea of marketing, the big score is also crazy. You never see. Well, I shouldn’t say never. It’s very rare that people want to go public with these big scores. And part of the reason is a lot of the times the big score is by a big computer syndicate that doesn’t want people to know how unlevel the playing field is that they’re competing on.

Wouldn’t you say? Absolutely. And the thing about it is, is, is, you know, I think there were some arguments to be made that, you know, they’re kind of, uh, obviously tied in to what the book says, but the book is just what races have to be run on that day. It does not lay out an order. And, um, I’m not a hundred percent sure I kind of blasted through it, but somewhere along these lines, There was a seven horse stake that they chose to run earlier in day to leave out.

There was a nine horse allowance rates they chose to leave out and there was three, 10 plus horse field races with horses that had form. So that’s five races that they could have picked from rather than the randomness that is. Uh, uh, maiden special weight, which I can kind of get into. Cause it’s a made special.

You can really look at sales information, trainers, breeding, all those things, but then there’s also like, The the ridiculously hard and, and, and pretty much, uh, guests, every time, maiden claimers, the lower level, maiden claimers, those are not great handicapping races. They’re not great races that, that, that, that increase handle.

They just feel like they do because they, you know, there’s 12 combinations and essentially you’re scaring everyone into inclusion because they’re essentially guessing. That horse, there was a horse. I think that switched right to Steve asked me, said the horse hadn’t shown anything, switched to Steve asked me son, there’s a handicapping there it’s it’s Steve asked me, he said, and I’m scared if Steve asked me, so I’m going to use the horse.

Next thing you know, your combinations come up cause you don’t wanna get beat by the horse. It’s I just don’t. I don’t think it’s the best way to go about carding these, these, uh, these multi race bets, where we’re just looking for as much chaos as possible. New York does a very good job. I have no problem with a maiden in the big pick sequence.

If it’s the first race, honestly, I don’t even mind it that much. If it’s the second race, though, I minded considerably more. At least with the second race, you can see the signal. From the way horses are being bet in the double, in the first race that gives you an opportunity to not only see the money, but you can also go to the paddock and see the horses.

So it’s not like we don’t think it’s cool to have maiden races in these sequences, put them first. And the idea of putting a sequence of all maiden races in a bet like that, where especially because. You’re not at that point, trying to protect against somebody hitting the single ticket at that point, it should just be interesting races that gives your best customers, your serious horse players, a chance to cash a ticket to run them any other way, or to run them like this to me, seems like a benefit.

From people who either think they have inside info and that’s a topic we’ll touch on. Now, I didn’t expect to go on this tangent to start the show today, but Hey, why not? Or really mathematically, it’s a benefit to the computer groups. Another benefit to the computer groups. Do you have something you are unmuting?

So I’m thinking you have something to say directly on that. Before I ask you about the inside information point, someone who’s not well. Well bankrolled or just a regular guy who comes on Fridays and Saturdays or gal, you know, cash, their check come to the a hundred bucks, 200 bucks. You’re you’re drawing them in with this.

Ooh, a hundred pounds, $44,000 a carry over mandatory payout, whoop de whoop de whoop. You’re drawing them in and then you’re making it an unapproachable sequence for that guy and his budget. He is forced. To either a single, an unreliable horse in five maiden races, or he’s required to spread and spend more than he probably spending.

It’s just it, like you said, I don’t even care if it’s the first race I have no problem with, you know, New York usually ends in a maiden claimer and all their pick five pick four sequences. So I have a problem with that being in the mix, but the idea that someone in the racing office said five maiden races.

This is a great idea. The reason that they felt like that was a great idea is one that I think needs to be re-examined whether it’s because of, of, of, of they think that’s what the horse player wants, or they think that they’re just trying to create chaos. Both reasons to me are wrong. You were running through a hypothetical there and you gave the two situations for the casual player going on a day like that.

You forgot the correct. And third one. Pass the sequins completely. Right. But then, but that’s not what this game needs. No, I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I’m just saying it’s really the correct answer. Let’s hit on this inside info issue for a second. Now, if inside info, this thing that’s feared, you hear it feared by contest players all the time.

They don’t want to play maiden races. Cause you know, there’s inside info and keep those out of the sequence. We don’t want maidens. I think that’s a little silly too. I mean, I think let’s be honest with ourselves. If we just faded every piece of insight info we’ve heard over the years, JK, how much would we be up?

That’d be up pretty big. We believe in it. We believe in it more than other people that have had some success with it. But still in aggregate. It is not some, there’s not some Kadra of horsemen insiders getting rich betting, masonry, and it’s. Yeah, it’s not that it’s too hard or that it doesn’t have a place in our game.

It does. It just doesn’t need to be used in a way to create chaos. That’s my only issue with it. It just doesn’t need. To create chaos. All right. J K we’ve spent enough time on that for now an unplanned trip down the road. But I think it’s of the moment. I think people will be interested in it. I want to play a little audio from the other day.

We’re going to start off with a trip and the way back machine. Peter Thomas  towel back with you here at the start of the London landmarks, half marathon going to try to post some updates throughout feeling pretty good right now. Good. Night’s sleep. Nice help from parent and Susan to find the start. Okay.

And I we’ll check in with you in a little bit.

Okay. We’re back. It’s the London half. We’ve got the karaoke runner here doing is Tom Jones very appropriate for a London half can probably hear him in the background, straight into Khalilah. I’m running to my London rock and roll playlist. Lots of who in class so far. Things have gone pretty well. I’ve been out here about 45 minutes.

Co-chair might not be happy. I’ve been up in zone four, a bunch plan a was to stay in zone three till about halfway, but feeling good sunny day. It’s beautiful. Good crack.

What’s up guys. Um, Susan and parents hearing beyond on the course while we do the show been pretty fun. So far, I’ll check back in with you guys in a few miles, but so far so good.

Okay. Pass mile eight, ditch karaoke, boy, five miles back or so you can hear the drum core. That’s your point? Amazing race, very inspiring, incredible energy. The whole way through there’s all these stories about Joe Strummer, running marathons, preparing high drinking, 10 pints of beer. I grew up about that, but I sure could use a pine right now.

Uh, Timing wise, heart rates been up in zone five, a bit less than ideal, but I settled it down. Now. I’ve been out here about an hour 30. So people who thought I was going to run this fast, bad news for you, you ain’t winning. Um, even the stated goal of two 15, it feels kind of out of reach, but I’m not too worried about it.

I’m just going to cruise around here, let it out the last 5k or so see where that gets us so far. Still feels like New York might be a good idea. We’ll check back in, in a few miles. See how I feel about that particular supposition. And we’ll see where we end up. All right. See you in a few months.

Second, then one last time from the road, because I think I’m going to kick it in. Just saw Susan somewhere in mile nine, got to say a nice hello to her best moment in the race. So far, one point you’re running, getting kind of tired between eight and nine and they are up in the air. You see the cathedral of St Paul’s iconic top.

And it reminded me of the great story about the blitz and how people around here look to that as inspiration as much damage as the city tuck, they never got St Paul’s and probably narrative, but there is again, Funny enough, you just loop around and it appears in the horizon probably narrative, but they say, who knows what would happen to the local morale?

Had they got St costs anyway, inspiring stuff. I’m going to put this away. Now. Talk to you at the end. It’s going to kick this into high gear. Not sure how coach Herrick will feel, but we’re going South. From here on out. See, after

that’s the finish line, hear some cheering. It’s two 27 on my unofficial. We’ll see what the real clock says slower than I wanted. It’s got great. Julie brag. Ringing in my ears, official clock on account for my waves. That’s the three I’m here and ass. Boom, boom. The finish line, right? Oh, it’s Christmas.

That’s something, man. All right. I’ll check in. After I get some.

All right. Several hours later, we’re in the Uber. We had a great time, met up with Susan and parent at the finish line and did some shopping, hit up Liberty, got parents, some nice stuff, went over to pretty green and I load it up. That it was a nice Sunday roast at Maggie Jones over in West London. And then we found a really cool craft beer pub over there as well.

I think the biggest losers would have been the people who picked the time. It would have taken me after the race to have a beer. It ended up being like four hours or something, but don’t worry. Few. And now we’re headed back to the hotel. That’s the Savoy compared to the youth hostel and then back on a plane tomorrow, hopefully this will become part of the podcast.

Can’t see why it wouldn’t. But, uh, thanks to everybody who supported me along the way. What a great day, one of the great days I’ve had. And thanks once again to everybody for the support and especially thanks to the places I was running for today. Make-A-Wish U K. And the thoroughbred retirement foundation.

Oh, one quick note. I have to check for sure. But I think Paul Matisse might just be the favorite to have one the guests at the time contest. All he said was secretary at Belmont. So I assume he thought I was going to come in and two 24, maybe somebody got closer. I got to see the official time, but that one’s gonna be pretty darn close.

Anyway, we will be talking catch you later. PTF signing off. And there you have it JK. That was me out on the course at the London half and a little bit of an update. So HorsePlayers are a funny bunch you should have probably realized, or I should have probably realized. That more than one would go with the secretary at Belmont angle, my friend, Jim, Cbus also donated to Make-A-Wish UK and put in the two 24 gas, Paul Matisse, whose money’s going to the thoroughbred retirement foundation.

As I said in the tape, didn’t even put in a time, just said, secretary at Belmont, and then looking over the other scores I saw Marshall Graham had put in the gas to 23. 40. And I was thinking about at JK and I thought back to a time many years ago when I was hanging out at Del Mar race course and had a chance to look in the photo finish booth.

And I learned something very interesting, which was that many races that are called dead heats. They’re dead heats because when you zoom into a certain amount to the finish line, the noses are on the line. But almost always, if you zoom in a little bit more. One horse wins, even in a dead heat. You can see if you zoom in and up that one was ahead of the other.

Where am I going with this? Well, to me, 20 seconds, over the course of nearly two and a half hours. That was enough to just blur the photo slightly and call Marshall Graham. Jim Cbus N Paul Matisse, all co winners. I’m going to have to empty out my stores of books and booze. And I’m going to have to cook for the entire Matisse clan up in Saratoga.

But I think it’s the right thing to do. They gave to the charities and I will give to them. What do you think? No, I was thinking I actually ran one time in London for about 20 seconds to catch the bus. I’m fairly certain. It was just to get on the train. It wasn’t like an athletic endeavor. Train to get the, to get to the next spot.

So, uh, running in London. Congratulations. Thank you. You look great by the way, PTF. Thank you, buddy. You’re looking slim and sleek making me feel like I need to get my life in order. Well, you’re dealing with injuries, aren’t you? It’s awfully hard to train when you’re, uh, when you’re, when you’re dealing with stuff like that.

Emotional, emotional injuries. I’m good physically. You just don’t want to complain, but I you’re out there. You’re out there playing hurt. You played football for all those years. It’s hard to, uh, hard to keep your body going. And the travel, the travel is really what messes me up when it comes to like eating healthy and like working out.

It’s just like, You know, you wake up in different places and you, you know, you’re eating on the run and you know, you don’t want to buy groceries because you’re leaving the next day for four days. And it’s just like a whole ordeal, but, uh, no, excuse some, um, uh, Justin Timberlake said I’m bringing sexy back.

Here’s my thought right now, put you on the spot. I know you’re going to be up in Saratoga at least a couple of times this year, there’s a series of road races up there and they’re not terribly long. We’re talking about five Ks, maybe any chance we can get you out there. We’ll do one. We’ll do a podcast 5k together.

We’ll record some audio for the road. Maybe have a charity benefactor, like the thoroughbred retirement foundation thrown into the mix. What do you think? Any shots. Absolutely. We’re going to put a parent in Austin in a red wagon or radio flyer, drag them along, drag them along with us. Good stuff. Well, anyway, thanks once again, to everybody who donated to those causes, it was a really.

Fantastic time. And we look forward to doing more fun stuff, gonna have a fun announcement coming up in the next couple of shows about this contest. We’re going to be running, hopefully at the end of the keen Lynn meet in benefit of the thoroughbred retirement foundation, we’re going to keep the charitable endeavors going here on the, in the money players podcast.

In the meantime, we encourage people to continue to give that link for the TRF that we want you to use. T R F Inc. Org slash players. All right, let’s go on to some of these asks ITM questions. We’re going to start off with one about hidden scroll JK. You looking forward to wagering on him in his next spot.

Still. I am looking forward to it. I’m looking forward to the draw. You know, look, I, I think I even had to have like a DM Twitter fight with someone who saw me tweet on blindly bedding, hidden squirrel. I think hidden scroll will present some value. Um, come Saturday, obviously code of honor is going to be in there.

There’ll be other horses that show up. Um, that should take a little bit of money. I think that in this role is going to be a little bit of value with the rider change. I think that Joelle obviously was extremely aggressive. We found out that the workmate Tacitus is obviously a talented horse. I just think that written differently and under different circumstances, we’re going to see a different performance from hidden scroll and based on what I’ve seen from all of the yes and probable game winner, Omaha beach, long range, Tati, tack it’ss, all of them.

I just feel like that the beaten performance of hidden scroll is probably my favorite of all of those. And the best part about it was is that he ran, you know, third, fourth, or whatever it was. And I think I can find some value based off of the previous performance. I’m looking forward to him this weekend and he’s going to be in the mix of a mandatory payout.

Rainbow six at Gulf stream. Um, I commend, is that okay? I thought the mandatory was Sunday and the Florida Derby was Saturday. Do I have that incorrect? I they’ve typically done that in the past. They wait until the day after they did it. They, after Pegasus previously, they didn’t do it last time because of the weather.

Um, from what I understand. And, and obviously the people listening won’t know that we’re going to pause it after this. I probably stayed a statement and positive and double check, but I’m, I’m, I’m, I’ve heard that it was going to be that day. And I commend them for doing that. Let’s focus on the good races who cares.

If there’s a six horse field in there, let’s give the people a bendable product that is not just some chaotic handball booster. All right. J K we paused and confirmed. It is on Saturday. That is a good decision. And makes me feel good. About the 10 minutes we spent at the top of the show talking about that other business, because it becomes immediate really relevant.

It’s not that fond, always just criticize. It’s nice when we can give praise. Praise to GP for making that happen. Here is a question. This is a good question. I don’t know how into it we can get. Now it’s basically a request to spend some time on the concept of ticket building, specifically how to maximize your opinion, not only via one type of bet or the amount increase of your bet.

And. It really is almost like a show in and of itself. And I want to do more stuff about betting strategy. I could also see potentially doing a show maybe around the Derby specifically about this. Try to get some bonus Derby content in. I know people are super engaged with us around that type of year, but for those who are interested in this topic, you know, there is stuff in books that’s pretty good.

The Berry meadow. Material money secrets at the racetrack. He has a new book. We’re gonna, I have him on, by the way, in, uh, in short order to talk about his new book, which is very interesting and cool, and apparently selling very well also, which is good news. Steve Crist, exotic bedding is a great book about that, but I know we have some different twists that we do that sort of go beyond the ABC method, which is a great starting point and something that everybody should learn.

But JK, you got an answer to this. And there’s a simple answer that that can happen in, in one minute that we can tell versus the longer version of this. I like the one, if you can just let’s let’s talk about an Exacta. Let’s talk about a tri let’s talk about a pick three. If you’re looking at one of those three pools, right?

Say it’s an example that you liked three horses, you know, in a normal world. You’re, you’re doing that. You’re making the mistake and I, I mean that in a nice way, you’re making the mistake. Of exact, the boxing three horses. So you’ve got six different combination. You’ve got the one, two, the one, three, the two, one to two, three, the three, one to three, two.

Right? Those are your six combinations. A fun exercise is just to pick your hundred dollar budget and place different dollar amounts. Next to those six plays. That’s like the introduction to like, I’m not a mope on betting efficiently. Just try that for, for, for one setting. And you’ll be unbelievably impressed by how much more efficiently your bets are laid out and you can do it based on your opinion.

You can do it based on what you think, the price you’re going to go off at. Essentially it’s a makeshift Dutch. It’s not really a Dutch it’s Dutch principles, but you could do it that way. You can also do it with the pick three you take, I’m sorry. Excuse me. A trifecta. You can take the same idea with that six horse exact box.

And then in the third leg, just use the five or 600 that you like. So you’re efficient to your opinion, and the first and second leg of that, of that trifecta first and second. And then you just kind of spread it out. And the third leg kind of going back a little bit more to the, to what we’re all typically and kind of entered the game, man is like, just hoping for a price in that third spot.

You can also do that in a pick three. If you, you know, take your double, your fear early double in the pick three and take your, you know, if your one, two in the first leg. You’re one, two, three, four, and the second leg, then take those eight combinations of a one, two with one, two, three, four, and just put different dollar amounts to them.

And just take more time of pushing in your ticket and putting in eight tickets. Instead of just putting in that one ticket, that’s the really, the quick, easy way to get your brain wrapped around betting more efficiently. I think it’s a good, quick answer for sure. You know what I’ve been thinking about a lot, JK lately is the concept of grading bets.

This is something I’ve heard about in the sports world. I’ve actually never really heard about anybody doing it. In horse racing, but there’s no reason why it shouldn’t work. One of the things we talk about all the time on this show is how players should spend more time focusing on the decisions that they’ve made as opposed to the outcomes that they get.

In other words, trying to be cognizant of the fact when you got kind of lucky and a pace scenario, help your horse. To win or the favorites bad trip is the only reason that bet cashed, but trying to look at your bets after the fact completely objectively and grading them, even if you didn’t win, maybe the way that race unfolded, it made you feel like you were definitely getting the best of it.

And you were unlucky. I’m putting that one in the positive column. And then the one where. You really were meant to lose, but for the horror trip, that was unpredictable of the favorite, even though that’s a winning bet, you know, maybe it’s more of a, B than an a just cause you really felt so lucky to get there.

Have you ever thought about that concept? How much time do you spend going back and looking at the bets you’ve made? I definitely go back and try to, like, I don’t think I’d really do it so much on paper. I mean, I look at record keeping. I don’t so much grade them. I love the idea and I have some ideas based off of that, but what I always like to do.

Is whether I get beat in a bet. And usually you have this conversation when you get beaten a bit. I just like to ask myself and I’ll ask you and I’ll ask other people and I’ll, you know, friends and, you know, Sean Borman or, or Mike or Paul or Duke or whoever just say like, was my money in, right? Yeah. I just want to know if my money was in, right.

Like what I got beat, but was I in a good position? Did I turn a one to five and a five to one, but then I got beat. Like, it is what it is. I just got beat. However, I think that there’s something to this grading thing. I think maybe, maybe trying to differentiate an a, an a bet versus a B bet or a C or an F bet where you really made a mistake.

I think that you could maybe even go to like that summer school, college vibe where you just make it a pass, fail, you know, you can even simplify it enough to be like, you know, was this a good wager. Or was it not? Did I pass or did I fail and really eliminating the fails? I think is more valuable than identifying the BS and the CS.

Right. Interesting. It’s an interesting the point. I mean, I think there’s, there might be value in both, but I take your larger point now. Very generously the business manager for in the money media drew, Courtney has volunteered to be the quote unquote, Guinea pig. If we ever want to do this as an experiment and said, Hey, we can look at his place for the day and more or less rip him apart.

Um, or maybe give them some props depending on how things went. Maybe this is something we should finally kick into high gear with this idea of grading bets. Well, I’ll tell you this, and this is a very important part to the conversation. Grading a bet in hindsight needs to be treated as hindsight. Yes.

You, you, you, you, you can’t say, Oh, that was stupid. I shouldn’t have done that because I should have known so-and-so was going to get beat, but come on. That’s it look, if you made a play this weekend and you singled Serengeti impres, and she bled and she got beat you ain’t don’t, don’t try to make some, you know, over the top.

Declaration that you made a bad wager. Just got unlucky in the sake of hindsight, we’ll always make you feel like you’re a, B, C, or an F performer. You, you, you, you, you can’t, you can’t predict the future. You have to just make sure, like I said earlier, your money is in, right. Well, this is something that we talked about a little bit when Dave gut Freud was on the show.

And that wildly popular episode. And he mentioned that Jason beam had written about it and beam talking about how the poker forums used to work and still work with players going over plays exactly like you were saying JK and not enough of that happens. I think there’s too many people. And maybe even some among our listeners who think it was a good, bad if they won and a bad bet.

If they lost. And it, there’s obviously a lot more to it than that. Absolutely. And as a guy who’s been around poker, as much as you have, the problem with that is, is that poker is more mathematically. Accurate trackable for sure. And in spite of the right word, but like transparent, right? It did. That is the right word.

I think because the odds are the odds you, you’re looking for to that flush draw, you know exactly what percent chance you’re having. In horse race, handicapping, those percentages are subjective. We try to make them as objective as possible. The favorite has a 50% chance to win or whatever, but it’s not like God came down from heaven and told us war of will had a 50% chance and just broke badly and hurt himself.

And didn’t raise, raise, you know, it’s, there’s so much more to it. The problem with, with the grading. Right. Is it if you’re going to grade and maybe we can talk about this more in depth, but if you’re going to be a guy who’s going to grade your wager, you cannot in hindsight, say that war of will was an underlay agree.

I agree. It’s just not, it’s not fair. It’s not accurate. You have to make. Th th your assessment, based on the information you had prior to the race running, you didn’t have that information after, so you can’t act like, Oh, you know, well, the, the time that I almost got in a fight with Jake’s buddy, who was yelling about, uh, about, uh, the Philly.

Yeah. Uh, the, the Philly, the Mandela Philly being, you know, saying she bounced big fella. You, you can’t say she bounced after she just ran like crap in a dual. That’s not that that’s not, you’re not saying anything. And it was a big horse. Who was it? It wasn’t ice woods. Who’s, he’s never won again. I don’t think by the way, you know, it, you, you, you, you, you, you just have to be careful that you don’t use.

The information that you have after the race to assess the decision that you made prior to the race. It’s not that that does you no good in assessing and in fixing the problem. All right. We’re going to, we’re going to spend more time on this much more time on this. I realize JK, there’s been a bit of a host fail here.

We were supposed to talk about a little race from last weekend, which we just started getting into a little bit, the Louisiana Derby, but the host got a little distracted and forgot to bring it up until now, but let’s use this opportunity to segue to it. Be my standards gets the win with a 97 buyer speed figure.

What do you think? Is it safe to say that the Kentucky Derby winner is not coming from this crop that competed in Louisiana or we may be selling some of, or maybe I selling some of this cruise short? Well, I think Benny, Oh, I got to, I’m going to do some name dropping. I think Benny South street wants to bet a horse out of this race.

Um, that’s for sure. We’ll talk about that in a second. Um, I don’t know if you know this, Pete. I know you were traveling, but I was hanging out with Sean Borman, our buddy. Professional horseplayer Sean Borman. And he was the only reason that I used by my standards on multi-racial play. Oh, Oh wow.

Interesting. I know he’s very big on looking for hidden signs of improvement. He also makes his own figures, the buyer for the, by my standards, maiden, when. It actually ended up getting upgraded, but was fairly low coming in. Did Sean like by my standards because he had the maiden race figure higher, or because he saw some hidden signs of improvement, uh, both.

He had the figure higher and the other, uh, the figure higher and he had, you know, Sean’s a big, um, figure pattern guy where he likes, there’s a, there’s a thing he likes to see in a figure pattern. Maybe we can have him on some talk. To talk about it, but, but, you know, I was farming except I just didn’t. I mean, I thought Serengeti impress couldn’t lose.

And that’s for someone who, who bet a whole lot of money, trying to beat her in the breeders’ cup, Philly and, uh, Philly, uh, juvenile, juvenile fillies. And so I just, I was, it didn’t matter. I was dead at this point, but, um, but, uh, yeah, no. So he ran, well, I mean the finger didn’t come back slow 97 for buyer.

Have you seen some other figures that had it higher? No, I one 17 time form us, which is actually the same nothing to, to, uh, to look sideways at. And, and the, the, they had a bunch of, to turn dirt races on the day, which that’s helps the new Orleans handicap. Obviously, if you’ve seen on Twitter, there’s been some situations with, with wondering, um, why that final time was so slow.

Uh, the buyer figure I believe was, was projected up. Um, Sean Borman will tell you that this race and the race leading up to this were just slow races. Um, Craig Milkulski re time the race by hand and said that the time was right. It’s just the slow race and jot down in your little notebook. I can not wait to bet against every single horse in the race when they show up in the alley Sheba.

Uh, Derby weekend core beliefs was the winner there. Silver dust, mild friend, lone sailor coming in behind other also rans, including a band to a copper bullet and noble Indy. Those are just some of the names. Oh, and Mr. Buff. Uh, ended up running last in there after setting the pace, some of the horses JK we’ll be looking to bet against in the future, the buyer did come back a 94, which is low anyway.

So to think that that’s projected up, might’ve just been a slow group of horses, but you didn’t really answer my basic question. Are you, I’m not really too interested in bedding any of these. Uh, come Kentucky Derby day, unless I see something that changes my mind. I mean, I’m not going to hold fast to that and be stubborn about it, but it just felt like perhaps a group to fade spin off is a little bit sneaky.

Um, country, house, I think has it, has it just can’t break five races, five off slows. I’ve had enough. Yeah. Um, I don’t need that in my life, especially for third and fourth. Sure. But it’s very hard to win top level races with that completely agree. And I don’t think he’s got enough. I mean, he’s going to be in trouble points to why he’s not the run again.

Isn’t he to get in. Yeah, you’re right. He won’t even be there. Um, yeah, I don’t really want anyone there. I don’t really want anyone in the Florida, excuse me. In the Louisiana Okta fairground Oaks. Um, I thought Serengeti impres obviously had, she had the health issue and the race where it says that she bled and she was fanned off and.

I don’t think I’ll be betting her off of that performance. I’ve always kind of thought she was a one dimensional affiliate anyways. So I don’t really want her off of that. I don’t want street band. I don’t needly aura or sweet Diane. So I don’t need anyone there. I’m going to skip race 11 for the moment.

Uh, race 10. I don’t want any of these horses. So now it’s the race. 11. I think we should probably talk about. Um, bricks and mortar is one that I do want. And why wouldn’t you JK really looks to have taken a major step up, signaled some real talent as a three-year-old beating our boy Yoshida back in Saratoga that summer obviously health issues, but he’s come back since with two big efforts off the bench, you expect to see more going forward.

I do, you know what he kind of reminds me of, and I’m going to talk really slow while I pull it up. Don’t you know, now I can just pause now that we record the show, you can speak, Hey Pete, pause a minute. Rewind. Cut that up. But I’ll let you kind of like the building. I wonder a little bit, there are some high praise where gun runner.

Oh, stay with me. Gun runner had the, you know, the, the cool three-year-old year. And then he, you know, he kind of danced all the dances. He, you know, he probably stuck around a little bit longer than the bricks and mortar, but then he came back and he ran the Razorback and he freaked and they ran in the there, and then he ran in the, uh, in the, uh, as soon as the Clark freak, Razorback freak, Stephen F.

Austin, Whitney freak. And then he just really just never stopped freaking. He won every race after that. He was never beaten except for the race in Dubai. I just feel like that’s kind of what bricks and mortar did. He, I took that little break. He came back and I just a better horse. Now I get it. It was a desperate win, but this race was a perfect example.

If we were to ever do a, uh, an old I’m sure you’ve seen an old Dan Ilman video where he did that video, where he like showed like, uh, you know, like video evidence of all these things that can happen in trip handicapping. I feel like this race would be a great one for our, our title page, the jockeys dilemma.

Oh, interesting where, you know, I read, put him into the race, but he fought them early, sat off of a maker, horse going a mile and an eighth and fairgrounds market off, you know, he didn’t switch leads late and he just kind of struggled to get by. And I just think that in other situations, it’s going to be more impressive.

If I were able to let them roll open up by three, whatever. Drawn off by seven. Right. But when you, you can only go so fast. You know, I think someone, Nick Tamra made a comment about bricks and mortar hanging and then someone responded to him. I believe it was Marcus Hirsch about like we came home sub 12.

Do you really call that hanging? Well, that’s a great point. Right. And how much faster could he have gone? Yeah. Yeah. I know what Nick’s saying though. Sometimes it just looks like they’re meant to go by easier, but I think in that instance, you’ve got to give credit when you look at the sectionals and they’re coming home that day.

Fast when they’re running the equivalent of, you know, one Oh five buyers as late pace figures, maybe even higher than that might be underestimating. It it’s, it’s one of those things where I’m glad it’s not just visual handicapping. And I also have the numbers and I’ll say for me, JK, in those instances, I trust the numbers over that visual impression I do too.

You can’t really tell how fat it was ugly because bricks and mortar didn’t switch leads. So from the pan view, As an American racing fan, you’re used to, to horses looking a certain way when they come down the stretch and when they’re on the wrong lead, it looks wonky to you. It just does. And your brain goes to that’s ugly.

And you don’t, you don’t realize all the factors that are involved in what happened in that situation. I call that sometimes when they’re on their wrong lead, I’ll even use the term like hanging on the wrong lead. It does. It almost means the same as the other kind of hang, but not exactly, but they are related in some way.

Well, you’re, you’re, you’re saying hang on the wrong lead, like hanging out, like I’m. Hanging with PTF tonight, but there’s something more pejorative about it. Not just them hanging out with me, of course, but there’s something more pejorative about it. Hold on. We’re going to have to pause for sure. Now negative is no clue.

What the hell you’re Oh my God. I bet you’re making me feel bad for saying it was impressive. I would just more men, you know, looking at the clock and the closing sexual comes back as a one Oh two buyer. I think there might be more to come. Here’s the scary thought, and this could have just been racetrack chatter, but the Pegasus turf was announced so late.

I almost got the impression that bricks and mortar was chosen almost a little bit as like the B plus team to be the one to go after that target and that he might even have, you know, Uh, B be more happy with the prospects for some of his other monsters coming through for this year. I’m not sure which of his breeders’ cup turf runners are planning on coming back and competing this season.

But it is an interesting thought. If this one isn’t the best one in the barn, there really might be some interesting stuff going on for him in this division. As we go forward, you can’t convince me that he doesn’t have a horse with dark green. And light green silks for Peter Brant or, or a, uh, or, uh, any horse involved with Saul, with the teal, with the pink that can rival this one as an older horse.

He’s been impressive. Here’s what I’ll ask you, Pete. Uh, right now buy, sell, hold ’em. I’m not going to do it right. Do you want bricks and mortar at even money in the. Turf classic on Derby day, or do you want Divisadero? Who’s only lost on the race course. One time is undefeated a mile and eight. And Churchill downs at six to one.

Who are you taking? You really have to ask you. You got the nerve to ask me that question. It’s the visit Aero baby. I mean six versus evens and for a horse start winning races. He’s not winning races. It’s fair. But. Six to one is a good price. I don’t think he’ll be that on the day. Did you look that up?

Was that on check it right now? No, I’m just, I mean, he was seven to one in the last race he ran fourth. I feel like might get better than that in England, potentially. Yeah. What, what do you think his problem is? I mean, and let me, let me set you up. Is it. Is it he’s running into payslips races. Is that the switch from buff Bradley?

Is it the, uh, you know, fluoron rode him for the first time? Was it the, the Toledo situation he was away from his rider? Was it the mile and an eighth distance? Was it pace? Was it soft ground? Was it Churchill? Why are we not getting. Why are we, why can we not get his picture taken? You’re not going to like this answer, but I think he’s been really unlucky.

And I also think he’s a horse that lacks the ability to make his own trip. And so he’s always going to be prone to being unlucky, but certain situations specifically that distance truly run at Churchill that just suits him. And I think it’ll suit him again. And if he doesn’t win or go close there, I mean, maybe I have to start looking at it and coming up with another answer, but I think the horse has been very unlucky and I think he has another big one in him.

And I think the podcast fans will be celebrating when that day comes. We’ve gotta make, we gotta make parts for Derby. I say to visitor, you know, that’s one of the, you know, that’s, I think he is a large part of the reason that I have that I wouldn’t, he was the first step to developing my friendship with.

With one of my best friends in the world now and Jake Valdez, but then also in my relationship with Craig Berneke because Craig was playing in the contest that day at Keelan. And I mean, excuse me, not to on a Churchill when he won his first turf class that I believe. When he beat world approval, may that was the second one.

2015 was the first wasn’t it on the Pharaoh under 15 was his, was his three year old American turf, bro. You’re right. So the four year old is when he beat world approval. I go right. Either was rolled approval. That feels right. So, uh, I saw Bernie and Bernie cause like, what do you think? And I said, bet it all on Divisadero and embedded in that he bedded in the contest, not just because of me, but whatever.

So burdock and I’s friendship went from there. And then I told Jake and Rashard Lewis and the Piper. I remember walking by them and telling them that, uh, The visitor, I was going to one, so he’s done good for me from a bank account standpoint, but he’s also helped me make some friends Berneke is much too sharp to be betting it all on your say.

So let’s put it that way. Well, at least he wasn’t, he didn’t listen to the Piper last year. The Piper told him to bet it all on my boy, Jack. Oh, geez. Even at five to two, but you know, the Piper comes up with a lot of good stuff, especially on this show. A couple of Travers days in a row, he’s just absolutely killed it.

We all have our moments and we got to get you a little bit better at this help. The sponsors game. That’s not Jake Ballis. It could be Prince of Keelan, Jake palace, but really it should be Jake Ballis of black type thoroughbreds. For more information, check out black type JK. Yeah, or you can show up at keen when I think maybe coming sooner than later, you might be able to see the Prince in person look forward to hopefully having a nail down announcement about a podcast event does look like it’s going to be Friday night in Lexington after the races.

More details to come on that one. Before we leave this discussion and get back to a question or two, I did want to pause on war of will for a minute. I’m thinking he’s going to be taken off the Derby trail. I would have be hard for me to bet him back in six weeks time off of that. But this is a horse who showed a lot of talent and with a layoff coming back in a spot against something else that had run more recently and was hyped.

I believe the talent we saw him flash this winter was significant. And if folks want to overreact to that bad effort, again, with a layoff in between. This is the worst I could see going back to once the world gets off him, if that’s the scenario that occurs, what are your thoughts on war of will going forward?

And then it’s back to the hashtag. I would normally feel bad saying it like this, cause not everyone has this information, but I promise that I’ll share the information when I get it. This is a, this is a big John special. This is a John, the clocker special. If this horse is training lights out at Churchill.

Then I’m in, if he’s getting regular B minus C plus, uh, he looks pretty good. A that stuff he’s completely dead to me. Uh, I won’t deal with him at all. And in terms of parimutuel pools, if you watch the race again, I’m sure most people saw it. I saw it in real time watching it, like he took some of the most awkward steps and the first 15 jobs from the race, it seemed like he could see her back end, went out.

It was very ugly. He almost sat down at lunch. Yeah, exactly. It’s like when you’re really sore, you can barely. Yeah. I mean, I’m not saying he was sore before the race. I think something happened there and he just got, you know, just like when you’re running sometimes and you get a cramp or whatever, I that’s kinda what it looked like.

It was clearly, he’s got the back races that. If he’s fine. If it was just a misstep bad day, you know, stubbed his toe, whatever you want to call it, the six weeks is enough time for him to get ready. And he’s got the foundation that if he’s gonna, if he’s special enough to kind of take that next step, I wouldn’t, you know, I’d have no problem being involved with him, but I’m just being honest, honest, like I won’t do any of those things without.

You know, John essentially telling me that he’s, that he’s doing well. Yeah, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying I like him for the Derby. I don’t, I want to lay off and for him to come back down the line and hopefully be a bit of a forgotten horse at that point, I think I’d have trouble betting him off that in as little as six weeks time, few other questions.

The concept of Dutchess comes up again for those who don’t know. Cause I mean, we talk about it. Like everybody knows it, but I think it can be unfamiliar. The idea is betting the same amount, betting different amounts on various combinations to try to produce the same return. So in other words, if you have low, if it’s a, we’re talking about a two horse double and it’s a long shot, long shot, you might bet $2.

And if it’s a long shot, favorite, you might bet. $5. And if it’s favorite, favorite, you might bet $20. That’s a gross oversimplification, but that’s the idea you’re trying to make those payouts the same. If horses you like hit. And here’s the question from Brad when structuring A’s and B’s for multi race wagers, do expected odds influence.

Whether you use as an a or a B, or just how likely you think the horse is to win example, if you like a 12 to one, would you lean towards an, a to get more value or a B because of the Dutch concept that I just mentioned, that’s a very good and, uh, potentially tricky question, but you have a way sometimes of simplifying these things, answer it up.

Well, it’s sequence dependent. Uh, you know, I think that the there’s, the, both of those scenarios have the right answer and the right situation. If you are playing a pick with call it a pick three, you love a horse in the last race, you don’t have a strong opinion in the first or second leg there, you can Dutch based on the expected prices and payout, right?

Because you don’t have an opinion. So let’s just line up with the public. So that pretty much, you could pull some extra money out of the pool and be alive to the horse that you love and the third leg. So, so why take a stand one way or another? Just let the market, you know, the market is, is more right than anyone else.

Let the market just, you know, determine how, how much you put on each combination. Now, the other situation would be so much. Were you like a horse earlier or you like the first two races where you actually. You love a three to one shot. You don’t really love to five to two or the two to one or the even money or the six to five and you can, they can, they can get involved.

Then you can build a ticket, you know, around that kind of like the example that I gave you earlier is just like, take your. Take your, your, your wheel or whatever you want to call it. Your, your pick three, the first two legs. You’re you’re the one horse, the two horse by the one, two, three, four you’re one, two with one, two, three, four, and lay out those eight situations.

Those eight. You know, plays with different dollar amounts next to them, based on your opinion. There’s, there’s two different ways to go about it. The bottom line is you never, ever, ever, ever, ever need to bet the one for combination the same way that you’re betting the two, three combination, you do not need to have the same amount of money on those two combinations because they’re clearly different.

You either liked the one more than you liked the two or you liked the three more than you liked before. And the fact that you’re doing it all the same as wrong fundamentally. And that’s what I challenge people to do differently and do better. It’s just hard. There’s not really a program, a commercial program that does it.

Ticket maker is a head fake at it, but ticket makers still doesn’t do it right. Um, it just does it better than, than most people are doing it. It is something that is worth spending time on one related concept to this tangential, to it, but related Mike Maloney’s concept of the value be in these spots.

And if I’m remembering it right from the book, which I should remember since I co-wrote the darn thing, bedding with an edge, have some copies on sale, by the way, if folks are interested, reach out on Twitter. But a horse that you think is alive, long shot. It’s not really a B, right? Like it’s a horse.

That’s probably, if you were really just grading completely objectively in terms of its chance to win is probably more like a C, but it offers so much value that if you’re doing a traditional ABC structure, you want to slot it up in the pecking order to catch the full. Um, might have the value of that runner.

Now, like JK says, the rest of the sequence really makes a difference here. If you’re spreading other places, maybe that doesn’t work, but if you’ve got other legs around the value, be race where it narrows, that’s a good horse to just throw in, spend a few extra dollars and try to get that added coverage with the kind of horse that could really unlock a major payoff.

Anything else on that? Or should we move it on down the line? I’ll be quick. There’s an angry horse player who, I’m not sure if I’m friends with or not, but there’s an angry horseplayer that makes the point that you should never use a favorite as a bee horse. And I agree with that. Um, in other words, you want the concept of the defensive, is that because you’re completely against the idea of a defensive favorite use?

Cause I’m not, I’m not always against that, but I kind of think what you’re saying about not using the favorite as a B is. You know, let’s put our adult pants on here and try to beat the favorite. If we don’t like it. If you have two horses that are B horses, one of them is the even money. Favorite. The other one is the five to one shot.

If you don’t like the even money favorite, then you should really be spending more money on the five to one. You know, the five to one that you believe deserve the BBB. And rather than being scared that the even money shot that you don’t like is going to beat you, or, you know what I always tell people to do, which is probably not, you know, you can’t scream at the top of your lungs when you’re on certain situ you know, you’re presenting on certain situations.

I probably couldn’t say this on the Niara Fox show. Don’t play the bet. If you don’t have an opinion, don’t play the pick three of the pick four, play the double or the pixel. I want to see how the boys, I want to see how the boys and girls over there at Fox react. When you go on TV and say, you know, I’m just not going to play this sequence.

Yeah. They, they, they actually had a conversation with us before, like, Hey. We understand it might not be a great bedding race, but you can’t really say that on TV and the TV show entered by were bets. Yes. That would probably not be the smartest, uh, politics in the world. Oh, that’s funny. But I, one idea that I’ll throw out there is.

Using the favorite defensively sort of just as another horse in the sequence, just as a random contender, that’s something that Mike Maloney advocates that I’ve heard Sean Borman talk about. In other words, if you’re clever, elsewhere, even if a horse is underlaid, if you’re making a big investment in those pools, If it’s not going to cost that much more to just cover the favorite.

I don’t have a problem with that. I mean, I could see where somebody might say from a strictly value point of view, leave that leg out, cover those other horses and other bats. But if a favorites in between two horses, I really want to bet, and I don’t really love the favorite, but they’re a serious contender.

I’m not. Um, I don’t know what the word is enough to, uh, to leave them out completely. I’ll use them just as another horse and I don’t have a problem with that. That’s fine. But you just can’t, you just can’t use them. You can’t them the same. No, no, no. That you’re using other horses, like the horses that you, that you’re saving with the 20 to one shot in that.

makes a ton more sense. I agree. It costs nothing, right. Then saving with an even money shot. Like, like for instance, let’s use Serengeti emphasis as an example. Look you either. Yeah, you gotta be four against the mapper or you try to beat her and if you’re gonna use her defensively, you better love some things on the outside.

When I say outside of me in the leg before in the leg, after you can’t. Can’t just, you know, guess your way. Oh, you know, I like four year and seven horses in the, in the Louisiana dirt. Now you’re in the wrong pool. You shouldn’t be playing. All right, let’s move on. JK. Few more questions. Here’s some good ones for Jake.

Ballis. We’re going to have him back on soon. Here’s a question about from our man, Rodney, about the future of live money tournaments with the addition of online access via sites like express bet and the aforementioned Niara bets Niara bets of course added an online component at their Gotham challenge.

Their numbers went through the roof. I spent this morning actually. Writing a really fun piece. We’ll post it on the blog. When it’s up about Mitch Schumann, one of the guys who’s going to be competing in the wood Memorial challenge when that takes place. Uh, just a couple of weeks time. Now, once again, there’ll be an online component.

What do you think JK and I’ll play devil’s advocate here because I think I know what you’re going to say, but what do you think generally, of the inclusion of all this online wagering in these live bankroll events? Love it. Um, you know, the biggest obstacle we have is contest players, travel, you know, most of the contests, um, the live money ones all were, or, you know, you had to be on track.

And, um, I think that there’s obviously a lot, you know, we have a whole concept built on OnTrack handle. I think that’s obviously the dollar that you want, but you don’t want to exclude people and you don’t want to, to size the prize pool by not allowing. A willing competitor, the play just because they can’t make it there in a weekend.

Um, there’s not a whole lot of things that can be going on in the world that can prevent me from playing in a contest on a Saturday. If I can play from anywhere. Right. If I can play for my phone, I can play for my computer. I can play a contest from a wedding. Oh, you’ve done it. And I shut down the entire re uh, uh, you know, pregame rehearsal, one time and a buddy of mine’s wedding.

When union rags and painter were ding dawning down the stretch. I paused his wife for a second. I was like, Hey Liz, one second. You always know how to make friends JK. Absolutely. But I’m saying is, is, is by allowing people to participate from anywhere you really open up the window of opportunity. And if you think about.

The gaming opportunities and maybe not even gaming opportunities that strive in this world, whether it be sports, which is probably the most action is on. You can participate from betting sports from anywhere. You might not be able to place that wager anywhere illegally, but the, but you can, you can, you can get a bet down and you can watch it on your phone.

You can watch it wherever and continue on with life. You know, I don’t days are tough. And Pete, I haven’t told you this yet, but I have an idea of having a show where we have like the significant other of a horseplayer show. Oh, that’s a great idea where, cause I think there’s a, there’s an art to it, right?

I’ve learned with my significant other that I’m allowed to watch the race in all situations. As long as I say. Hey, I’m about to watch this race. I can’t just pull my phone out while in while she’s talking to me. And Ms. Controversy telling you about her tough day at work, go on with the seven. Yeah. Yeah.

You have to, you just have to preface it, like, Hey, by the way, I got to watch this race right now. And the other thing is like, I was told that if I just can tell a story about what’s happening a quick, like synopsis. That like, they she’ll be interested too. Oh yeah, this is. So I want to watch this race, this horse that ran first time out, missed the break.

And I know that the, the, and here I want to see all the horse runs. She’s she’s expressed to me before that, like that like kind of really helps her feel like she’s involved or whatever trip notes are as good as Benny, South streets. You have the opportunity to tell a story and then you will never be married.

Benny is married. Ben is married with kids, family, man. He’s reformed his ways. He’s no longer wooing Swedish royalty in the paddock bar. No, it wasn’t the paddock bar that was at the parting glass. Uh, later that night got into a little bit of trouble down on Caroline street, but these things happen. He is now reformed family.

Man. It’s such a transformation in a friend. I’ve never seen JK Pete, you know, production meeting inside of the show. I don’t know if you know this and he doesn’t want anyone to know that he’s married and has kids, sorry, Benny, edit this out. Now. I was leaving in. He’s he’s living a second life and you’ve outed.

Well, I’m sorry, Benny, if that’s the case, but I think it’s important to let people know who you really are and what you’re all about. And he certainly laid himself bare in these trip notes, just amazing stuff. Every time he’s come in and he says, he’s going to be back next weekend to do some stuff on that Florida Derby car.

It should be a lot of fun. Benny is without a doubt, the second best. Trip note handicapper I’ve ever seen in my life. That’s so high praise. Should I put your feet to the fire about who number one is, are you you’re bound to offend somebody when you answer that question? No, I can’t give that away.

This weekend racing returns to Santa Anita. You pretty psyched about that. I am. I’m. I’m excited. I’m nervous. Um, Um, nervous. Like I think most of us probably are not going to put it out in the air, but, you know, there’s that kind of like overhanging fear that we all have, but it’s the right thing to do.

Absolutely. We’ve got to get back going out there and I’m interested to see, um, I want to support. Racing. I want to re regardless of dumb decisions that are made, I want to support racing as much as I can. I, I want to participate from a parimutuel standpoint. It’s a little bit hard as a horn player when you’re having horses that have been running with something in all of their career, and suddenly they have half of it.

Um, they’re also going to have 115 pound beings on their back that we’re able to use something that they’re not, they’re no longer able to use that that’s a very challenging circumstance to like pony up big money. However, um, I put management and your frustrations with management, if you have them aside and just think about the individuals that are involved.

From a, from a horseman standpoint, from a groom standpoint, uh, maybe you don’t feel sorry for the jockeys, but what about the jockeys agents or the valids or all of these guys that have been out of work for all this time? I mean, think about our great friend Arcadia. Like she hasn’t worked in four weeks.

It’s not good. So I, I want to, to, to, we all have our frustrations, but. I I’m going to make sure that I get at least a little bit involved. I’m sorry. I can’t do what I might normally do just because I don’t picture that I need. So I want to be, I’m glad they’re back racing. I want to be involved. I’ll be holding my breasts while they’re running.

And hoping for the best come come morning, Monday morning, when we wake up God speed to the horses and people competing out there this weekend, uh, we will be watching optimistically and hoping for good stuff. A good start to this resumption of the Santa Nita meat. So 15 years ago, I was really into college basketball and this whole tournament thing, actually a little bit, maybe more like 20, then I discovered Cheltonham.

All right. So Cheltonham meant a lot of these marches I’m over in the UK for a giant stretch of the tournament by now. I hardly even pay attention. So JK, what have I missed? Um, you have missed, uh, a lot of people that are really excited that they did really well in the first round when they don’t realize it doesn’t matter.

It matters when sweet 16 games. Yeah. You missed that. Um, you’ve I missed our friend Marshall Graham. We sort of let Marshall promote his game and he could have done a huge game through our show. He does a really cool version of a bracket. No money involved. Of course, a dignified college professor. It’s all just for jelly beans.

Absolutely not. No money, no jelly beans, even. It’s just all for the sport fair. Um, but you get a hundred dollar budget and that this is not me being coy. You really do get a hundred dollar budget to select as many teams as you want. One seeds cost $50, two seeds cost $30, three seeds, $20. You’re getting the, you’re getting the idea, sort of a modified Calcutta with like a fixed price Calcutta kind of.

Exactly. So you’ve all lived to a hundred. So I put my teams and I’m feeling clever. I’d take Duke at $50. I take Virginia at dollars and then I take Texas tech at 20 I’m feeling good. I’m ready to rock and roll. I scroll through all the people who played. And someone has the exact same three teams as me.

Guess who it is. I can give you 17 guesses. You won’t get it. Hit me. Nick tomorrow’s mother

some great stories about Nick Tamera’s mother and rude ladies in elevators that will never be told on the show, but maybe in a podcast after dark someday. But that is amazing that you and Mrs. Tomorrow, clearly you have the same handicapping style when it comes to college basket. Yeah. I don’t know who’s gonna win, so we’ll see what happens, but it’s fun though.

He’s got a cool little deal you can take, like, I think he like laid it out. You can take. Every nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 seed. You could have all nine through 16. You can afford them through your a hundred dollar budget. You can do it all kinds of different way. Clever. Uh, it’s it’s a fun deal. So, um, that’s going good.

So that’s battling it out of me. And the Prince of keen would have a head to head. The loser has to eat the hot, the six hot wings of the other person.

I have no idea where you’re going with that. You, each of you have some sort of hot wing that you, uh, despise or something. No. I just think we’re going to try to light each other up. You know, I’m going to go, I’m going to go somewhere and get him the hottest ones. He’ll do the same to me. Like a hot wing challenge.

All right. So, so now we have two examples of you betting that do not involve money. Have there been any phone calls to a certain bet runner in Las Vegas to put some actual money down? Um, no, I think that’s like, Vernick mentioned the wire act last time he was on. You told me before the show to tee you up for a Marv story, I’ve tried six different ways.

What do you want to say about Mark? I don’t know your conversations with Marver locked up. Let me tell you what’s the best part about Marvin. He gets so stressed. Oh, it’s amazing. Get your jollies stressing out a 75 year old man. That’s good. That’s good. Oh, he loved it. Unreal. You got these sweat. Gays are unreal.

Unreal. It’s so bent out of shape. But, uh, Eric was actually Eric violet are our buddies. My coach, my running coach. I referred to him several times in the, uh, in the audio earlier. He’s your running coach. He’s my math coach.

He, he really liked UCF and he called me before and he’s like, Hey man, I out. Well, I bet this UCF thing I’m going to be out in Vegas. I’m going to try to meet up with Marvin and go by and do it with him, whatever. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it buddy. But I don’t, I wouldn’t bet UCS man, like I’ve, I’ve seen them play a lot and, and they’re going to struggle against Duke Duke she’s too athletic and dah, dah, dah.

And he and Eric had the last laugh. He was all the way to the wire right there. He had Moneyline uh, he had Moneyline UCF plus 700. I hope he cashed a nice bet with the spread. He’s got plea out a little plus 13 action, but not as, not as sexy as a little bit with the plus 700. No, but at least he didn’t, you know, be too much of a hero, which is always, which is always good to hear.

We should probably sign off pretty soon. JK we’re at about an hour 10, but I didn’t want to end the show without giving props to a new hashtag. We talk about hashtag ask ITM. I want to talk about the hashtag I am horseracing. Uh, I barely caught it running around, but I love the spirit of it. People who work with horses that want to show the world that this isn’t an industry predicated on exploiting animals.

It’s an industry predicated on loving them and working with them and helping them to be the best they can be while they. Return the favor to us. I think that’s the best way I can describe the hashtag. I know you had some thoughts you wanted to share about it. I don’t think that this is the, the met the message from the hashtag, but this is, this is J K’s version of it is you have a family member or a friend who treats their dog worse than 90% of these horses are treated right.

Um, you know, lock them up in the backyard and cold and all these, these horses are treated well. They, they have a positive influence on young people, families, women, men, whatever, like it, it, this is a positive experience for so many people. So there are some unfortunate things that come along with it. But I think that the positives outweigh those negatives.

And if, and we have done a poor job as a sport, Showing that to people because that doesn’t sell tickets, it doesn’t sell wagers. Right. Um, w when we, when we’re on NBC or on Fox, or we’re on it’s breeders, covets Derby, we’re talking about the fun, the beauty, the pageantry, the gambling, the drinks, the food, the dresses, like that’s what we focus on because there’s really no time within our limited scope of time.

To talk about how the, the, the human animal relationship and how it affects these young people and the people behind the scenes. And I’m just glad that, that someone’s taken the time to, to, to highlight those things. And I, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t see how it could at all be harmful. And I think it’s extremely positive just to, to, you know, you can’t look through the feed and not smile.

Yeah, it’s an important message. And I think the timing of it is obviously perfect. And I’m not just saying this because they’re our sponsor, but you look at programs like the second chances program that the thoroughbred retirement foundation does. And we’re going to have much more on this, on the show and.

The way to me, it’s such a perfectly emblematic way of the way that horses and humans can help each other. Rich, small, the idea that these retired race horses that need a home go to this place with the people in prison who are looking for a second chance, ability to get back on their feet and working together, they can help each other out.

I mean, to me, that’s just one example of the way that people and horses can interact, but that happens. Every day at these racetracks. And it’s great. Uh, for folks who thought to highlight it, I don’t know that much about the history of it. It might be a fun conversation to have. Do you know who started it or any of the backstory or did you just start seeing it pop up in your feed?

I don’t know who started it completely. I would imagine that Christina blacker was somehow involved. She was the first one to kind of lead it off. She was the first one that I saw too. And she would be a really fun guest to have on the show. Actually, my message that I initially received, and I don’t mind saying it out loud was from, uh, the young ladies at grand slam social.

So I don’t know if they’re involved in helping promote if they were involved in creating it. Um, but here’s the thing though. Let me, let’s pivot real quick is, um, I’m looking at all of these meet Anna and  meet. Uh, you know, I think, I think, uh, our buddy, um, at little red feather, uh, Billy Kotch, when, when can we get a meat, PTF and JK, they can let us hang out back there.

I’ll give a horse, a bath. Uh, I, I fed city of light. I fed city, I fed city of light and an Apple. So I mean, I’m a horseman, you know, through and through JK. I worry. You’d get kicked within your first 15 minutes back there. I even handed McCarthy some scissors one time. I’m a horseman. Tremendous. I’m no better.

I should say I should point out. I’m not, uh, you know, I, I, I have walked one. So I think that might put me ahead of you. McCarthy didn’t trust you enough to let you walk one around there. No, not, not, not with, not with the ditches leading up to put $12 million range. I didn’t mean city of light, but that just shows good judgment.

That’s how you become a grade one winning trainer folks, you know who to trust and you know who not to trust. And on that note, Jake, I think we’re going to put the cap back on the bottle in this edition of the, in the money players podcast. One more shout out for our friends at the third red retirement foundation and also 10 strike racing.

Want to thank you. Of course. Want to thank drew Kourtney the business manager of in the money media. Most of all, I want to thank all of you, the listeners. I think I forgot the listeners. Shout out last show. I was in such a hurry. That’s bad of me. You make the show so much fun to do. We appreciate all your questions.

Keep them coming. Hashtag ask ITM. This show has been a production of in the money media. We will be back on Friday. That’s Mugsy the handicapping Labrador scratching at the door. She’s thinks the show has gone on way too long. I’m Peter Thomas Itau. May you win all your photos?

So I’m sitting here in the hotel room, enjoying a Norwegian speed ball. Do you know what that is? Uh, sounds like something you’d get on the dark corner somewhere. No, no, nothing like that. We’re talking about some espresso backed up with a mug of a Porter. It’s good stuff, man. I’m telling you. Really Nori a Norwegian speedball.

Well, you know, you, it brings you up and brings you down. You just sorta end up level and happy. There you go.

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